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Tweaked minor facets??

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Turtle

Rough_Rock
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Apr 10, 2003
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I have read several threads explaining that some branded vendors "tweak" their minor facets to achieve better Bscope scores. What exactly does "tweak" mean? Are there additional facets added? Are they just cut with different proportions?

Also, if these facets are critical to producing the best light return, why isn''t that information offered with the other Megascope information? What is the range that they should be in?

Thanks in advance for your help!
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
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Mar 28, 2001
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6,275
LOL! Good answer Gary!

The short of it Turtle is that very few of us know these details on the minor facets and fewer of us can even give you the data. The hardware to measure them (40 out of 57/58 facets) is very very expensive and very very few people own the hardware. I have the only 2 devices that measure these to date. The accuracy on one of them is questionable and only today did I get the 2nd installed. I'm in the process of calibrating the device and Lord willing will have it up and going by the end of this week. Once I do I plan on using this data to finish our page on the minor facets (currently under construction) to demonstrate the importance of the minor facets and their effects upon brilliancy, fire and scintillation. In our shop we carry many different flavors of super ideal and many have come and observed these effects with their own eyes under both critical and practical analysis.

Interestingly enough my findings on the minor facets correlate similarly with what GIA has been discovering although we are using different means to arrive at our conclusions. Once our newest technologies are properly running and calibrated I'll (if I'm allowed to) post a link to this new data. If you want more in depth details you can drop me an email, call or for starters check out this article which is a summary of GIA's research on the subject. http://www.professionaljeweler.com/archives/articles/2002/jan02/0102dg.html

Also ... there is NO BRAND tweaking their minor facets to do this. There are cutting factories around the world cutting H&A diamonds and with the majority of them it is a hit or miss as most are not cutting their diamonds with specific minor facet measurements in mind (only the majors). Amongst those factories there are only 2 I have found that cut their stones with minor facet measurements in mind. One is EightStar (although contrary to the current research) and the other is overseas, one of which I don't care to share.
There are none in the states I know of and as I said most are a hit/miss.

Kind regards,
Rhino
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
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31,003
From what I have read, the super ideal stones have minor facets cut in a way such that they can achieve the maximum of light return to the eye. To get an idea of what this means in easy to digest consumer terms...take a peek at the www.whiteflash.com website and click on 'A Cut Above' to read about their superideal brand, and see their red ideal scope image. It is almost 99.9% red with hardly any visible white.

Red means light return to your eye. White means light leakage lost and unseen.

Then compare this to a branded or unbranded H&A stone such as the ones on GOG or NiceIce, or even on the rest of WhiteFlash's site, and you will see IdealScope images that still look darn good, but have more a little more white light leakage--mostly along the edges of the stone.

Will your naked eye catch the difference? Maybe not. Who really knows. I'd love to see a ACA or 8* against one of Rhino's H&A stunners and see if I could tell a difference or was just BLINDED by all the fire!
SuperIdeals vs hand picked H&A's would stun you either way.

Do have to say though, it is easy to be tempted sometimes by those bright red ideal scope images on the WF website....good marketing!
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
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----------------
On 4/22/2003 9:59:40 PM Cut Nut wrote:

In addition Rhino, WhiteFlash / a Cut Above is cutting them too.
The stone on the front page of www.ideal-scope.com is one. it is as good as the best 8* i have seen through an Ideal-Scope.
----------------
I'd be interested to see them Gary. I wonder if Brian would send me one? You know I've been getting them types too and have a few on the site.

peace,
Rhino
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
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Hi Mara,

For the past 3 years we've been showing clients both types side by side (they are not exclusive to WhiteFlash and EightStar). The larger majority (when given the chance to compare) have been choosing against the shorter star/lower girdle ratio in favor of the longer star/lower girdle ratio. This has been my experience and is why you see more of those in my inventory than anything else.

Admittedly though BOTH are rare and gorgeous and is why I stock all flavors.


Peace,
Rhino
 

Turtle

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2003
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16
What about SuperbCert? Do they tweak their minor facets too? Their idealscope images look pretty darn good too.
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,441
Well, I wasn't gonna tell until I got my goodie in hand, but this thread has prompted a response from me.

I just bought a White Flash ACA H&A. No offense to Barry at Superb Cert or Rhino at GOG, just the folks at WF were GREAT!!!I'll tell the whole story later.

I had decided on one diamond from WF. Upon Brian's prompting (yes you can talk directly with the cutter!) I previewed 2 diamonds from WF. One was their ealier, "Conventional" ACA (which they still make BTW), and the other was their "New" ACA. And, YES, you can see a difference in the performance of each cut. One is very sparkly, with many subtle flashes of white light and color almost all the time. The other is less sparkly, but exhibits BOLD, as in grab your eye from across the room BOLD, flashes of white light and color. It made for a very tough decision making process. Do I want to go conservative of be a little flamboyant??!!

If White Flash isn't tweeking facets, they've most certainly done something to create 2 totally different performance looks. WF has the ability to cater to different tastes in super ideal cut diamond performance.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
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31,003
Interesting!! I wasn't aware that there are two ACA types. Maybe Leslie or DimonBob can expound on the differences for us??
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,441
Mara, they'll have to. Heavens knows, I can't. But, they might not be able to,.... Else they might have to kill Turtle. And, they can't do that as he is an protected species. LOL


Brian kinda sorta explained it to me before White Flash shipped the diamonds. Something to do with one resembling the old, round style car headlights and the other was,.... Well, I don't remember now.
I do remember that once the diamonds arrived, I completely understood the meaning of his comments.


I don't know if the "Conventional" cut is still a part of regular production or dependent on other cutting/market factors. All I know is I've seen both, and Lesley told me they still make both. And, both cuts are absolutely gorgeous.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
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15,670
I had a look at lots of your new stones Rhino - none had been tweaked.
I have never seen any Superb certs that were tweaked. When you up the contrast and intensity on the SC Imagescope you can see the outer girdle leakage.
This image at www.ideal-scope.com has very faint partial leakage at the Vee shaped thingy's on the girdle. That is what tweaked stones look like.
 

dimonbob

Brilliant_Rock
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Dec 12, 2000
Messages
670
Who said "When you build a better mouse-trap they will beat a path to your door"??

What Brian does is turn out a SUPER IDEAL CUT meaning a diamiond with SUPER SYMMETRY and still an IDEAL CUT with AGS Ideal cut diamond grading report.

An engineer from Dallas called me about an hour ago and asked me if the Ideal-Scope picture on particular diamond was the real picture on that diamond. I was not sure but I brought of the diamond and yes, it is real. WOW! You want to see "near Perfect" hearts and arrows and a great Ideal-Scope picture... ACA 1.012 F VS2. No brag, just fact.

Diamond cutting is an art. With enough practice, anybody can cut a diamond but it takes more than just practice to cut the almost perfect diamond and then to do it over and over again takes a real artist. Do you want to buy a Monet?

You guys have fun figuring out WHAT is done. When you figure that out you can figure out HOW it is done. That will be more interesting. Meanwhile I get to sit here and play with the little beauties.
 

rbjd

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
154
Interesting to note that the 1.012 F VS2 ACA with the apparently perfect Ideal-Scope/Firescope light return image ONLY scores a 1.8 on the HCA and has 3 VG and only 1 EX rating on the HCA. What's up with that Garry?
 

rbjd

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
154
Rhino is correct about having these types of diamonds on his site. He's one of the few people around who actually preserves material in an archival fashion and has essentially created a public research database. He has a 1.23 G SI1 EightStar listed in his "Educational Diamonds" database which shows this all red/no leakage firescope image and also has a Brilliance Scope reading.

Some interesting points:

1) The Eightstar does not seem to display better BrillianceScope results than many of the "non-tweaked" H&A cuts. In fact, the areas which show the ONLY leakage in "non-tweaked" H&A's are in the dead center and the very edges of the Upper Girdle Facets. These are the same areas where the EightStar doesn't show much light return on the Brilliance Scope either. So I'm not convinced this "perfect light return image" on the IdealScope or FireScope really makes a whole lot of difference.

2) There seems to be some qualitative differences in the size and/or quantity of flashes between the so-called Super Ideal/EightStar model and other types of H&A cuts. However, I trust Rhino, as a former EightStar dealer who has looked closely at such stones and who does have customers who have viewed both is correct when he says he stocks what people prefer. It ultimately is a matter of taste.

3) The fact that some highly internally and externally symmetrical H&A stones have small points of light leakage in predictable places on their Upper Girdle facets does not change the fact that these highly internally and externally symmetrical stones are works of art in themselves. Look at some of the other stones on Rhino's pages. The symmetry many of them exhibit is astonishing.

4) It will be interesting to see what the difference is between the minor facets of one variety versus another when those numbers are finally made public (as I'm sure eventually they will be). I suspect that in the end personal taste will play a factor in the choice of many.

Do you want a Monet or a Van Gogh? Do you want a Picasso or a Dali? I'd love to have them all, I suppose.
 
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