trying to decide between two Rubelites

[kevinsp8]

Hi. I have a 3.75 carat red spinel I got from multicolor that I like. However, I'm in the market for a larger red gem for a ring, and Rubelite seems to be about my price range (2-3K). I'm trying to decide between this one from multicolor:



which is 13.8 carat, 'medium dark strongly purplish red', 'eye clean', pic taken in cool daylight, no enhancement. (medium dark strongly purplish red was the color description they gave the spinel I bought there, and to me it's a very acceptable red). Grading report says 'strongly purplish red' hue, 'medium dark' tone, 'medium dark' saturation.

and this one from AJSgem:



which is 11.49 carats, VSI, also unheated and from Nigeria, color described as 'warm red gem with red and pink flashes, fully saturated color, cut fresh this is a brilliant gem"

Any advice? Price is about the same.

 

[LD]

Ask David and Rung whether their gems take on a more brown colour in incandescent lighting. I, personally, hate Rubellites that go muddy brown looking (quite a lot do) so I'd most definitely ask the question.

I've bought a fabulous Rubellite from AJS before and have also bought numerous gemstones from Multicolour so in terms of customer service/satisfaction etc., I'd say they were both great companies to work with.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Also, the color seems to be more magenta than red to me, due to the strong purple element in the color.

The first stone appears to have a large window ("dead spot").

 

[chrono]

The most important thing to me when it comes to rubellites is if they can hold their colour. If it turns orangish or brownish under incandescent lighting, then it’s going back to the vendor.

 

[AustenNut]

Like LadyDisdain, the stones you've shown us appear more magenta than red. If you're actually looking for a magenta stone I suggest that you look at:

http://www.litnon.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=6476

I bought the smaller sister stone to this one, and the color is absolutely amazing, doesn't go brown, and everyone's pretty sure that its window will close up when set (the picture looks far more pink than it really is; it is a magenta colored stone in real life). PSers also get 30% off at Litnon.

If you're looking for a red stone, I don't think any of the these would work for you. I have worked with Multicolour and AJS, and I was happy with the products they sent me.

 

[kevinsp8]

Yes, I accept that the color is not that of a fine ruby... but my spinel looks similar in shade, and in real life reads as 'red' at least to my color-challenged male eyes, so I think I'll be fine with the purplish aspect.

 

[innerkitten]

I don't know much about the world of tourmalines. The second one shown doesn't have a window so thats a plus. Other people mentioned the issue of weather it goes muddy. What's the return policy like with the vendor just in case?

 

[kevinsp8]

Both have a return policy.. I've used multicolor on quite a few occasions and am happy with the service and return policy. I've never used asj but they appear to have a good return policy as well.

 

[chrono]

If I am buying a purplish tourmaline, then I refuse to pay rubellite prices for it. In short, a magenta coloured tourmaline should be priced less than a red rubellite.

 

[kevinsp8]

Ah. Well in searching the web, these are near the best I've seen. Slightly more red = 3 times this price, which I'm not willing to pay. Don't all 'red' tourmalines have some purple or pink overtones?

 

[innerkitten]

Ah. Well in searching the web, these are near the best I've seen. Slightly more red = 3 times this price, which I'm not willing to pay. Don't all 'red' tourmalines have some purple or pink overtones?

Good question. Maybe you should start a show me your rubelites thread.

 

[innerkitten]

You might just have to see the gems in person to decide what you think.

BTW One of my favorite things to do is check out the jewelry at my local auction house ( Bonhams ). The last time I was there they had a very fine rubellite and diamond necklace up for auction. I did notice that all the stones which were well matched and HUGE had a slight magenta tint to them.

 

[LD]

Mmmmmm a slightly different take on colour from me! A Rubelite should be ruby-like but will very rarely be ruby red! In my humble opinion, the ones that have a slight purple undertone are the ones that tend not to shift in incandescent lighting - that's a sweeping generalisation though! I don't agree that Rubelites should be red - sorry - magenta for me is fine!

Everybody has their own take on what a Rubellite should look like - my advice is buy what you like!

 

[LD]

Ah. Well in searching the web, these are near the best I've seen. Slightly more red = 3 times this price, which I'm not willing to pay. Don't all 'red' tourmalines have some purple or pink overtones?

Yes or brown!

I found this ........... this is the Rubellite I bought from AJS and a photo of it in real life so you can compare how the two look.

 

[chrono]

I do not know if you are aware of this but many rubellites currently in the market have been heated (into colourless), then irradiated to make them red. This usually done originally on pink tourmalines and this treatment method is not detectable at this time. Some are also fracture filled to improve clarity. I strongly disagree with AJS that irradiation does not impact the value of rubellites though.
http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/tourmaline.htm
http://www.bwsmigel.info/GEOL.115.ESSAYS/Gemology.Rubellite.html
http://www.ajsgem.com/gemstone-information/rubellite-tourmaline-52.html

A slight purple undertone is acceptable to me but not when it is overly purple.

 

[T L]

I strongly disagree with AJS that irradiation does not impact the value of rubellites though.

I very strongly second Chrono's above comment. Irradiation dramatically alters the gem's color, so why should it not affect the value???

ETA: I have heard you should be very very careful about purchasing rubellites that originate from Brazil, because they have irradiation treatment centers over there, and it's a big business to them. African stones are a bit more safe, but with this treatment, is is not detectible. That's the big worry to me.

 

[LD]

I strongly disagree with AJS that irradiation does not impact the value of rubellites though.

I very strongly second Chrono's above comment. Irradiation dramatically alters the gem's color, so why should it not affect the value???

ETA: I have heard you should be very very careful about purchasing rubellites that originate from Brazil, because they have irradiation treatment centers over there, and it's a big business to them. African stones are a bit more safe, but with this treatment, is is not detectible. That's the big worry to me.

I'm thirding Chrono's comment about irradiation. Okay, it's permanent but it alters the colour - so although the process is different, it's akin to BE diffusion.

Hopefully Morecarats or one of our esteemed gem buffs can confirm but I'm pretty sure that irradiation of Rubellites hasn't been around for long - only perhaps a couple of years? If that's correct then the original Brazilian material should be untreated but newer material suspect?

 

[kevinsp8]

Perhaps a philosophical question, but if the process is truly undetectable, then why would anyone buy untreated ones (since you can never prove they are untreated) at a premium?

 

[T L]

Perhaps a philosophical question, but if the process is truly undetectable, then why would anyone buy untreated ones (since you can never prove they are untreated) at a premium?

Good question. I have been told not to trust any, and by others to only trust African material, but if you never know, then why buy them, unless there are tell tale inclusions specific to the natural unadulterated material. I just stopped buying it.

 

[chrono]

Heat treatment is detectable but only if done with specialized equipment by someone highly skilled (aka reputable lab). So if the rubellite is found to not be heated, then it is safe to assume that it is not irradiated.

 

[Michael_E]

Hopefully Morecarats or one of our esteemed gem buffs can confirm but I'm pretty sure that irradiation of Rubellites hasn't been around for long - only perhaps a couple of years? If that's correct then the original Brazilian material should be untreated but newer material suspect?

Nope, try 15 to 20 years. Any intense red tourmaline is suspect and it's nearly impossible to tell that it's been treated. Location doesn't matter much unless you were there to dig it out of the ground, (even then I'd be wondering who was there first).

Perhaps a philosophical question, but if the process is truly undetectable, then why would anyone buy untreated ones (since you can never prove they are untreated) at a premium?

Philosophical as the money in your wallet. If you don't know and have no way to tell what's been done to something, than why would you pay more for it than is normally paid? Do you trust the entire chain of supply all the way to the hole in the ground that it came out of? I've no idea what these cost, but you should be buying them without regard to treatments and purely based on color, clarity and cut.

 

[T L]

Heat treatment is detectable but only if done with specialized equipment by someone highly skilled (aka reputable lab). So if the rubellite is found to not be heated, then it is safe to assume that it is not irradiated.

Can they detect heat treatment in tourmaline though since it's not done at very high temperatures, unlike corundum, where it is detectible, and done at enormous temperatures.

 

[chrono]

I’ve been in the other forum (forum name cannot be mentioned) discussion about heat treatment of tourmalines and recall that it is detectable but the cost of finding out is so great that it isn’t cost effective.

 

[LD]

Hopefully Morecarats or one of our esteemed gem buffs can confirm but I'm pretty sure that irradiation of Rubellites hasn't been around for long - only perhaps a couple of years? If that's correct then the original Brazilian material should be untreated but newer material suspect?

Nope, try 15 to 20 years. Any intense red tourmaline is suspect and it's nearly impossible to tell that it's been treated. Location doesn't matter much unless you were there to dig it out of the ground, (even then I'd be wondering who was there first).

Perhaps a philosophical question, but if the process is truly undetectable, then why would anyone buy untreated ones (since you can never prove they are untreated) at a premium?

Philosophical as the money in your wallet. If you don't know and have no way to tell what's been done to something, than why would you pay more for it than is normally paid? Do you trust the entire chain of supply all the way to the hole in the ground that it came out of? I've no idea what these cost, but you should be buying them without regard to treatments and purely based on color, clarity and cut.

Oh blimey

Ah well, add that to the list of "who knows what's been done to these" then! Thanks Michael. The reason I thought this was the case was because several years ago Rubellite was heavily marketed in the UK as treatment free. About 2 years ago this changed to irradiation. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

 

[kevinsp8]

Seller of one stone comments that the highly saturated color of rubelite always looks great in every kind of light. While pink tourmaline often becomes slightly brownish under incandescent light, rubelite never does.

 

[T L]

Seller of one stone comments that the highly saturated color of rubelite always looks great in every kind of light. While pink tourmaline often becomes slightly brownish under incandescent light, rubelite never does.

You will find many vendors of rubellite that disagree with that, and state that it can turn more orange in artificial light. However, I tend to agree with that comment above. The problem is that the nuked material also does not seem to color shift, but I could be wrong (have to research that). Therefore, if you do have a color shift, maybe you're safer. (???) I will say that some of the most beautiful material I have ever seen came out of Nigeria. I'm not sure how easy it is to detect origin in these stones though. I own some Nigeraian material and it has needles.

Forgot to mention that those two top stones in this thread look identical in color to one photo of a nuked rubellite I have on my pc. I will upload it later, can't find it right now. Also, it seems that very clean material is nuked, and since this is a Type II stone (typically highly included), I would be very leary of very clean material.

 

[AustenNut]

So if there are inclusions in the material, is it safe to assume that there has been no treatment?

 

[T L]

So if there are inclusions in the material, is it safe to assume that there has been no treatment?

I don't think so, unless perhaps, there are inclusions that are specific to true rubellite. I don't know the answer to that one. BTW, here is a photo of the nuked rubellite. Richard Homer also has several on his website that he states are irradiated, if people want to see more examples.

 

[kevinsp8]

In that picture, it looks pinker than the ones in my two pictures?

Any sense of whether the ones that are listed as irradiated are significantly less expensive?

 

[Michael_E]

So if the rubellite is found to not be heated, then it is safe to assume that it is not irradiated.

From my references, the radiation used to intensify the color in tourmaline is in the form of gamma rays which is the same radiation used to sterilize food, (using cobalt 60 as a gamma ray source). Therefore no heat is used. It's kind of funny that people get all worked up about the use of irradiation and heat in gems, since both processes occur in nature to color those same gems. The heat is obvious as many of these crystals grow in fractures and fluids produced in the outer layers of granitic pegmatites as they are cooling. Granites are well know producers of low level sources of gamma rays and so about the only hint that you might get that a stone had been irradiated, as opposed to being naturally irradiated, was some greater intensity of coloring in areas of a stone which received a greater dose of radiation after cutting, (slightly darker facet junctions perhaps?). If the stone were irradiated and then cut, well all bets are off and there is no way of telling.