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Arkteia

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Subterfuge doesn't play well with me. You didn't answer the question. Now I'm for Warren, feel free to call me Pocohontos :) as I have had my DNA done I do have .1% Native American in my background. I have always found the right wingers use ignoratio elenchi when they don't have a compelling argument.

From wiki:

Ignoratio Elenchi, according to Aristotle, is a fallacy which arises from "ignorance of the nature of refutation". In order to refute an assertion, Aristotle says we must prove its contradictory; the proof, consequently, of a proposition which stood in any other relation than that to the original, would be an ignoratio elenchi.
BTW, I am Pocahontas as well - according to one genetic analyzer, my dad is 4% Inuit. (Makes sense, as American Indians came from Siberia).

In my view, though, Liz made a mistake. She did not need to rush for the genetic tests. She had to say, “today, your tax returns, tomorrow, my tests”.

He is a bully, and one does not need to oblige bullies.
 

monarch64

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The only person that I see as "deplorable" is Trump himself. The fact he and for that matter the never ending debate on gun control divides all of you is testament to the fact that Trump himself is "winning" he might get re-elected because the left couldn't find enough in common to win states where people feel abandoned by the left, and Trump walked on water out of the political chaos and carnage to become the leader of the free world.

He wants to keep it that way, ie a divided country in chaos. As an outsider watching it, if this post is anything to go by, it's like watching a car crash for the second time you can predict it's going to happen but the people inside the car cannot get out of the way.

Everyone's views are important we will get further walking a mile in each others shoes (and that applies to both sides) than we will ever get by calling each other names.
Donald Trump did not divide this country. He has merely positioned himself as the leader of the "right" wing who ended up coming out in huge numbers to vote and now feel they're safe to spew their hate any and everywhere because he parrots their thoughts. Donald Trump cares about nothing except money and power. He doesn't give a shit about any of the people who voted for him, either because they approved of him or disapproved Hillary. He is a MERE symptom of a problem, and that problem is ******* people pitted against each other because of capitalism and greed. Placing blame on his shoulders is giving him FAR too much credit--he deserves none.

I've lived in my little blue town in the middle of a red state for 10 years now and grew up south of here before spending over a decade out exploring other parts of the country. I have never in my life seen what I've witnessed taking place here, not since I lived in my hometown and knew people who would beat to death any black person who dared walk alone at night (in the 1990s!) Things really seemed to improve all the years I was growing up and were significantly better when I moved back. Something shifted here when Obama was elected. People's fear became palapable. It was like, Oh no, if a black person can be President, we will all have to admit we're racist pieces of shite...nooooo, sir, we're not about to do THAT!

So now what do we have in my town? Nazis selling produce at the farmers' market and all the political unrest that comes along with that happening in a very liberal town. Black Bloc demonstrations. 3%rs with visible, multiple guns protecting said Nazi booth at the farmers' market. Antifa. And one arrest--of a female POC peacefully carrying a sign in front of their booth.

Today my city issued an alert on its Facebook page because someone/some group YET AGAIN has been flyering KKK recruitment pamphlets all over town and I.U. campus.

What a great time to be alive.
 

azstonie

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Oh I did that but someone beat me to it because I received a pop up that it had already been reported. People went off the deep end about my tongue in cheek comment of a Jewish gentleman last year so you will get no sympathies from me on this subject.

And lets not forget your lovely picture of a lynching victim that you later tried to backpedal by claiming you and your friends find it funny.
 

monarch64

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https://indianaeconomicdigest.com/MobileContent/Most-Recent/Most-Recent/Article/KKK-event-draws-hundreds-of-protesters-to-Southern-Indiana/31/135/93350

And here's a fun little taste of what's happening in flyover country, guys!

https://indianapublicmedia.org/news/kkk-fliers-found-in-bloomington.php

These people have all been around far longer than Donald Trump. Again, he is a symptom of the problem, which is HATE. He is, however, helping give people like this a voice. One positive that I see from it is that these cells are now VISIBLY popping up all over the place and everyone can see exactly who they are and what they are.
 

monarch64

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And lets not forget your lovely picture of a lynching victim that you later tried to backpedal by claiming you and your friends find it funny.
Ahh, yes. It's good to see you AZStonie and to be reminded that the internet never forgets. As the mother of a half-Jewish child and as a human, behavior like that makes me SICK.
 

redwood66

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And lets not forget your lovely picture of a lynching victim that you later tried to backpedal by claiming you and your friends find it funny.
Proof of such? I seem to remember it was a t-shirt with a saying and not a picture of a person so stop your lying. :naughty:
 

jaaron

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Yes. It was a t-shirt that read, Journalist. Rope. Tree.

Hilarious, of course. But somewhat inconsistent with your horrified reaction earlier in the thread? Surely your offbeat sense of humour doesn't desert you when it comes to the malignant orange windbag?
 

redwood66

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I have never been inconsistent. My views of the press are what they are. Some are decent and some are on the level of scummy lawyers.
 

redwood66

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https://indianaeconomicdigest.com/MobileContent/Most-Recent/Most-Recent/Article/KKK-event-draws-hundreds-of-protesters-to-Southern-Indiana/31/135/93350

And here's a fun little taste of what's happening in flyover country, guys!

https://indianapublicmedia.org/news/kkk-fliers-found-in-bloomington.php

These people have all been around far longer than Donald Trump. Again, he is a symptom of the problem, which is HATE. He is, however, helping give people like this a voice. One positive that I see from it is that these cells are now VISIBLY popping up all over the place and everyone can see exactly who they are and what they are.
Thank you. Interesting articles. Glad people came out to protest them because that is how it should be done.

There used to be a group of white supremacists here that are long gone since the locals, LE, and FBI drummed them out. If any are left they are sure in hiding but they seem to have gone east according to law enforcement. There have been no marches of any kind in the 14 years we have been here, but I guess they used to come out. Local LE that I am in contact with say there is no real group around.

We did have that Westboro Baptist Group show up for the funeral when one of our local boys was killed in Afghanistan. Awful people.
 

arkieb1

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@monarch64 - I agree with all of your points Trump has openly legitimised racism. But to eliminate it we all need to understand why so many Americans live in fear. I believe a large part of it is the lack of adequate gun control, the lack of adequate policing, a criminal system that isn't always working as it should be and so on. Why your welfare system is broken, etc...

Yes, in part, we can all see that many white people both working and middle class feel disenfranchised in their own country, but the reasons for that aren't just Trump it's because of an endemic breakdown of things like personal security, social welfare, education etc. My argument would be is if your systems were not failing then people would not need to resort to voting for Trump to feel their rights are somehow being protected or that they are somehow being heard.

It wasn't just radical right wing nutcases that voted for Trump, I think you will find many decent god fearing people voted for the man for a wide variety of reasons, rather than attacking these people the only way to get rid of Trump and anyone else like him is to understand what all of those reasons are, and offer up viable solutions that will sway enough of them not to vote him or anyone else like him back into power again.
 

soxfan

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@monarch64

It wasn't just radical right wing nutcases that voted for Trump, I think you will find many decent god fearing people voted for the man for a wide variety of reasons, rather than attacking these people the only way to get rid of Trump and anyone else like him is to understand what all of those reasons are, and offer up viable solutions that will sway enough of them not to vote him or anyone else like him back into power again.
I gotta tell you Arkie, EVERY single person who is an outspoken Trump supporter that I know in real life is someone who uses the "n" word, hated Obama, treats women as second-class citizens, is a gun-nut, loves the confederate flag even though they have NEVER stepped foot in the south, interchanges too, to, and two on a daily basis, hates education, and believes everything they read on FB and hear on Fox news. I WISH I could say there was like one or two people I know in real life that voted for him for a "good" reason. But honestly, WHAT reason WAS there to vote for him???

Because Hillary ran a sex ring out of a pizza parlor? Because he's an old ass white guy? Because he "says it like it is?" There is NO reason to vote for Trump. He's 100% unqualified to run for President and Hillary Clinton, like it or not, was the most qualified candidate for the United States Presidency in U.S. history. And she was HARDLY far-left. She was actually centrist.

So. Re-iterating my point- ANYONE who voted for Trump is either a racist OR is fine with racism. Don't even try to come here to hide it. It's not even an opinion at this point- it's a fact. We are only about 60 years removed from Jim Crow laws- and Trump has set us back at least 20 years. And if YOU think he's doing a great job as President, you are setting us back too.

TOO. As in also.
 

arkieb1

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@soxfan - yes many working and middle class white and non white people are scared, scared of black people, scared of terrorists, scared of foreigners, scared of people taking away their guns, scared of losing some already lost idyllic way of life when the US had full employment and so on.

Believe me, I get it, and it deeply saddens me. But you will end up with Trump back again unless you find more middle ground ways to hear them and understand what their needs are. And I'm not arguing anyone should support racism here, I'm looking at the conditions in your society that led to someone like him being elected in the first place, yes, sure, we can all argue that it was a whitelash against Obama, or that since 9-11 globally there has been a movement towards closing boarders and in part those things are true, but there is a deeper set of underlying circumstances ie a failure of your systems for everyday people that have lead to people not only voting for him but accepting him as your President.

I've pointed out many times on here Clinton got impeached for getting a [email protected]#job from an Intern yet Trump has done that and 101+ worse things (from ties to Mafia, links to Russia, buying off women etc) and no one seems to care (we all need to reflect on why that is too). So now I'm thinking about the long game, how can America end up with a better person next election.
 
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Dancing Fire

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I have never wanted to tell anyone here to shut up so that is where we differ.
This have been going on for yrs now. :rolleyes: unless you agreed with every left winger's political views or else you will be labeled as a racist, then they'll request the admin to ban you from posting. Yup, this is what I call freedom of speech...:rolleyes:

I know many of the liberals here put me on their ignored list b/c they don't wanna hear conservative's POV. The liberals here had ran every conservative out of town and now they wanna control the Admin of whom to ban or not to ban??? :angryfire:
 

JPie

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So. Re-iterating my point- ANYONE who voted for Trump is either a racist OR is fine with racism. Don't even try to come here to hide it. It's not even an opinion at this point- it's a fact. We are only about 60 years removed from Jim Crow laws- and Trump has set us back at least 20 years. And if YOU think he's doing a great job as President, you are setting us back too.

TOO. As in also.
:clap::clap::clap: PREACH.

@soxfan
Believe me, I get it, and it deeply saddens me. But you will end up with Trump back again unless you find more middle ground ways to hear them and understand what their needs are. And I'm not arguing anyone should support racism here, I'm looking at the conditions in your society that led to someone like him being elected in the first place, yes, sure, we can all argue that it was a whitelash against Obama, or that since 9-11 globally there has been a movement towards closing boarders and in part those things are true, but there is a deeper set of underlying circumstances ie a failure of your systems for everyday people that have lead to people not only voting for him but accepting him as your President.
I am so sick and tired of people saying that we need to understand Trump supporters and their needs, that we need to reach out and find common ground, there are good people on that side, ad nauseam. When you look at everything that Trump has said and done during his campaign and throughout his presidency, the only logical conclusion is that anyone still supporting him and willing to vote for him again is inured to reason and has no interest in social justice. All the ones who had any shred of decency and common sense have already acknowledged that they were wrong.

As we are reminded again and again by Trump supporters, he won the election. The Republicans have the majority in the Senate. We are under a tyranny of the minority. Why is it the responsibility of the oppressed to reach out and be the bigger person? Why is it their responsibility to find common ground and convince the tyrants to be reasonable? It's not, and we're past the point of conversation. There are literally over three years of political threads on this forum alone, some civil and some very heated. Not a single one has resulted in anyone changing their mind about Trump and it's not for the lack of trying.

I know you mean well and you are a kind person, but we're past finding middle ground so don't ask those left of Trump to be the bigger people after all that they've already had to swallow.

Edited to add: @arkieb1 I hope you don't think I have any animosity towards you. Frankly, what I wrote above has been in the back of my mind for some time and you just happened to be the next person to make that suggestion when I finally had time to gather my thoughts in writing. It's like being a kid and getting pummeled by a bully every day, but being told it's only going to stop if you try to understand where the bully is coming from. Sometimes that doesn't work, and the only way the bully understands is if you fight back.
 
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Dancing Fire

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I hold trade members to a higher standard of behavior than normal posters. Also, he's not saying anything, he's baiting people - which is rude, childish, and unnecessary. Don't start with me Redwood.
So, it is baiting if other members don't agree with your views?
 

redwood66

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This have been going on for yrs now. :rolleyes: unless you agreed with every left winger's political views or else you will be labeled as a racist, then they'll request the admin to ban you from posting. Yup, this is what I call freedom of speech...:rolleyes:

I know many of the liberals here put me on their ignored list b/c they don't wanna hear conservative's POV. The liberals here had ran every conservative out of town and now they wanna control the Admin of whom to ban or not to ban??? :angryfire:
Meh. Some do but most are fine people who are interested in conversing respectfully. There are plenty of things to discuss outside of politics. I want to see more flowers in yards! For me, the ignore function will be used for intolerant trolls from now on as it is an utter waste of time.
 

Dancing Fire

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Meh. Some do but most are fine people who are interested in conversing respectfully.
Yes they are, thus the reason why I don't have any members on ignored list. Unlike the liberals here I don't hold any grudges against any PSers here whether I agree or disagree with their political views.
 

soxfan

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This have been going on for yrs now. :rolleyes: unless you agreed with every left winger's political views or else you will be labeled as a racist, then they'll request the admin to ban you from posting. Yup, this is what I call freedom of speech...:rolleyes:

I know many of the liberals here put me on their ignored list b/c they don't wanna hear conservative's POV. The liberals here had ran every conservative out of town and now they wanna control the Admin of whom to ban or not to ban??? :angryfire:
You aren't a conservative, DF.
 

Dancing Fire

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@Karl_K You are a grown **edited by moderator, language** man and your participation in this thread is childish, inane, and wholly unbecoming of a trade member. PS should ban you. I'll certainly NEVER buy an Octavia. Your beliefs are yours - either support them with facts/thoughts/opinions in a thoughtful way, or bow the hell out of the discourse. Good lord I'm embarrassed for you.
Good, then save it for me!..:love::dance:
 
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arkieb1

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@JPie, @soxfan and anyone else, perhaps you don't realise this but I'm part Chinese, part Scottish, part English and part Australian Indigenous (black) Aboriginal myself. I'm the last person on here that you need to convince what piece of [email protected]#* Trump and many of his followers are. In my own life I've been asked repeatedly when I lived in a redneck small minded country town when did my husband buy me, because apparently rednecks believe all women that look Asian or part Asian (they are too stupid to notice the difference) married to older guys must be bought wives - btw, my 97 year old Chinese grandmother was born in Australia, and perhaps ironically her family have been here longer than most of the rednecks asking me that question.

I was walking around in Sydney in my 20s and had a older white guy come up to me with a sign screaming I should go back to where I came from, when I told him, no he should go back to where he came from he spat on me.

And growing up as a part Asian child in another equally oppressive small minded country town I was teased had rocks thrown at me and also told to go home.

I've taught English and History in a small minded redneck town and had a boy not only draw swastikas on every piece of work he ever handed into me, he wrote several very graphic creative writing pieces about how he would like to personally brutally gang rape, torture and murder me and "my kind" and how this country needs to be purged of "people like me." I have a number of black and Asian family members that have experience different racially driven incidents too numerous to list here.

You can call these people out on their racism, and sexist viewpoints until the cows come home, for most of them you are never going to change their minds, me, I take the POV that I'm working on all those swinging voters, those ones in the middle that can see I'm actually a decent hardworking, critically thinking person that can calmly not only listen to them, that can actually identify with some of what they are saying, and in doing so I would hope that maybe, just maybe, a few might actually be at least willing to listen to my points of view as well.
 
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monarch64

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@arkieb1 I'm with you. It does get tiring to continue to watch people beat their heads against a wall and refuse to acknowledge things about "the other side." And to your previous point, I grew up with people who voted for/support Trump/chose their "lesser of two evils." I understand their logic and feelings, and yes, they CAN be reasoned with.

You know what they DO NOT like? Being belittled. Being made to feel stupid and inferior. There are two ways to win people over: 1. charm the pants off of them and 2. get on their level and pretend you can relate. Political strategy is pretty much like dealing with children (and that is an intentional sweeping generalization). Donald Trump has done both of those things, seizing an opportunity that came at just the right time for him. DF is right when he says there is not one Democratic candidate as of now that can beat Trump in 2020. So it's either drop the attitude and get with the program, or keep whining and bitching and calling the "other side" (your peers) dummies and deplorables and lose again.
 

Ella

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This have been going on for yrs now. :rolleyes: unless you agreed with every left winger's political views or else you will be labeled as a racist, then they'll request the admin to ban you from posting. Yup, this is what I call freedom of speech...:rolleyes:

I know many of the liberals here put me on their ignored list b/c they don't wanna hear conservative's POV. The liberals here had ran every conservative out of town and now they wanna control the Admin of whom to ban or not to ban??? :angryfire:
DF, lets be clear that we ban people based on their own behavior, period. If you don’t like the way we run the forum, you are welcome to find somewhere else to post. Otherwise please respect us and our decisions.
 

arkieb1

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@monarch64 I'm in total agreement with you. Thank you for understanding the main point I'm making rational people CAN be reasoned with, those that are not rational can't, so I choose not to waste time arguing with them and move on.

What I hope is that at least some of the people that either voted for Trump or couldn't vote for Hillary can actually admit to themselves what a pile of human garbage Trump is. But we both know it's human nature that people don't like to be wrong, and so perhaps voting for Trump again, for some isn't just because he represents their white sexist POV, it's because they just plain and simple can't be wrong.

Throw in buying off votes and an outrageous amount of $$$$s that will be spent by people like the NRA on media propaganda to a wide range of people in American society convincing them that he will be the best option yet again.

Like it or not Trump and what he represents appeals to the fears of many many voting Americans, so IMHO it's those fears that we the left, we "the other" need to be addressing. Calling them deplorable, despicable racist sexist (insert a whole heap of swear words here) even if they are all of those things isn't going to change anything.

Yes I know it's frustrating, as someone who has lived fighting against racism their whole life, believe me I know that, but every intelligent critical thinking person needs to convince everyone one of those people irrespective of their intelligence level, their income level, their gender, their religious beliefs, the colour of their skin, not to vote for this man again.
 

JPie

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@arkieb1 and @monarch64 , how many Trump supporters have you managed to convince not to vote for him again, and how do you know that they have truly changed their minds and aren’t just saying they have?

Edited to add: let’s narrow the window and say within the past year.
 
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arkieb1

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@arkieb1 and @monarch64 , how many Trump supporters have you managed to convince not to vote for him again, and how do you know that they have truly changed their minds and aren’t just saying they have?
Probably only around 3, if I lived in America, I would hope that it would be more than that. But I can keep working on the conservatives on here, I don't care if they vote for another conservative candidate, in fact I encourage them to find a decent one and vote for that person, go to their local political member and voice their concerns they have about Trump (because from what I've seen some of the people that voted for him don't like or agree with much of what he has said and done) it isn't even about the left or the right politically for me any more it's about all of us united in getting rid of Trump.

Lets face it the man should have been removed if Bill Clinton can get in poop over his dabbling with Interns what does Trump actually have to do before that happens? Who is protecting him, why is your political system (the same one that has impeached past leaders for far less) protecting him, why is your system so broken that a) he got elected in the first place and b) why can't you get rid of him. Those are the questions we should all be asking ourselves.

In just about any other country in the Western world the media would put so much pressure on a leader that has said and done the things he has, in Australia, in Europe, and Canada, politically his own party would have been forced into calling for him to either step down or they would have remove him.
 

monarch64

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@arkieb1 and @monarch64 , how many Trump supporters have you managed to convince not to vote for him again, and how do you know that they have truly changed their minds and aren’t just saying they have?

Edited to add: let’s narrow the window and say within the past year.
Those are some pretty audacious questions, but ok. It is not my responsibility to change anyone's mind. That's for campaign strategists who're getting paid. Furthermore, I've never ever set out to convert anyone from ANYTHING with which I disagree. Now, do I maintain a cordial and respectful rapport with a lot of people and discuss a lot of political issues? Yes. And do we typically come to the conclusion that we don't agree on everything, but we agree on enough points that we know we can work together towards change? You bet your sweet ass.

Instead of FORCING change and FORCING others to see your POV, my philosophy is to be less extreme and more compassionate. Find common ground. Sales 101: Be friendly. Find a way to relate to your customer. Discuss commonalities. Then get down to business and close the sale.

It ain't rocket science. All Trump did was Sales 101. All of us who didn't vote for him who've spent the past two years grousing about it and doing nothing but sneering at the other side have no one to blame but ourselves.
 

JPie

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@arkieb1 good for you. I live in the Bay Area and I haven’t run into any swing voters. I don’t know if I would share your patience in trying to change their minds, nor the optimism.

@monarch64 You said that you "understand their logic and feelings, and yes, they CAN be reasoned with," so I'm not sure I understand why you think my question was audacious. For what it's worth, I have the same policy as you do IRL. I don't bother talking politics with my husband's Trump-supporting family, and I have agreed to disagree with a coworker. The internet is a different story.
 
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monarch64

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@arkieb1 good for you. I live in the Bay Area and I haven’t run into any swing voters. I don’t know if I would share your patience in trying to change their minds, nor the optimism.

@monarch64 You said that you "understand their logic and feelings, and yes, they CAN be reasoned with," so I'm not sure I understand why you think my question was audacious. For what it's worth, I have the same policy as you do IRL. I don't bother talking politics with my husband's Trump-supporting family, and I have agreed to disagree with a coworker. The internet is a different story.
Your question came across as a challenge and I think it's audacious to challenge someone whose thoughts are pretty clearly in line with your own to ask people for a number of people they've turned like people are sales we have closed.

There are ways to find middle ground and understand each other when you're coming from opposite sides. I know that I have influenced quite a few women to vote differently in 2016. I don't know about their minds changing and staying that way--I believe their minds were already made up and they finally acted instead of being complacent or afraid when they voted. Do you need like a headcount or statistic for that? I don't keep track that way, sorry. I'm not a paid political strategist whose job it is to quantify that type of thing. All I know is that when I talk to the many friends with whom I've maintained contact since high school, their ideologies are much different than they were in the late 90s, and since Obama was first elected, they're even more inclined towards open-mindedness and tolerance even though some of their dumbshit husbands aren't. What will keep them that way? How can I be sure? I don't know and I can't be. Life is a learning experience for us all and it doesn't just travel along this straight chronological line of first I knew this then I learned this and at the end I knew everything, yay!
 
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