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True Hearts - Technical discussion
- Thread starter Garry H (Cut Nut)
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Thank you very much for your thoughtful contribution to this thread from the point of view of a consumer. I think the sentence in red says it all, that the consumer has come to know what a H&A stone is and that is what they want, not a watered down definition.Date: 8/9/2008 9:15:02 PM
Author: risingsun
I am your customer buying a diamond online. I''ve been looking at diamonds at my B&M''s. I''ve used my own well-cut diamond ring for comparison. I go into a jeweler who carries HOF. I am
. The other diamonds I have seen can''t even compare. I spend a lot of time looking at these stones. This is what I want. I find PS. I spend a lot of time learning about diamonds and H&A in particular. I discover I can save a lot of money by buying online. I want to know that my online diamond will perform as well as HOF and will have the same appearance. I contact an independent appraiser who assures me that either choice will give me a superior performing stone, but I will not be compromising with my online choice. My online choice is a WF ACA. The reason being that it was not an ambiguous decision. The diamond was as described. I could have chosen a Crafted By Infinity or a true H&A from GOG with the same confidence. I would not buy a V&A stone, regardless of its performance, as a H&A. It is a different pattern with its own attributes. There needs to be clearly defined standards and parameters that don''t ''slide'' around. IMO, it doesn''t earn the confidence of your customer.
ETA: I do understand the difference between pattern and optical symmetry/performance. What has been said in this thread is not too difficult for the consumer to understand. What is difficult is why it is so important to call a V a heart.
Wink
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Simple, it is all about MONEY and the ability to play off an established "brand", or "style", and use that "brands" terminology, and cache'', in their advertising.
That is not to say that one stone is necessarily "better" than another in terms of some performance metric, but they will be different, and present a different look.
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No flames here, this is a discussion and your opinion is welcome also.Date: 8/9/2008 11:29:19 PM
Author: Shay37
Short answer to that is price. I think we can all agree that V and arrows is not a known or popular term in the mainstream. (neither is butterflies and arrows) Hearts and Arrows is very recognizable. One of these commands a premium, and the others do not. It is, as with everything in this world, about the bottom line. (unfortunately)Date: 8/9/2008 9:15:02 PM
Author: risingsun
I am your customer buying a diamond online. I''ve been looking at diamonds at my B&M''s. I''ve used my own well-cut diamond ring for comparison. I go into a jeweler who carries HOF. I am. The other diamonds I have seen can''t even compare. I spend a lot of time looking at these stones. This is what I want. I find PS. I spend a lot of time learning about diamonds and H&A in particular. I discover I can save a lot of money by buying online. I want to know that my online diamond will perform as well as HOF and will have the same appearance. I contact an independent appraiser who assures me that either choice will give me a superior performing stone, but I will not be compromising with my online choice. My online choice is a WF ACA. The reason being that it was not an ambiguous decision. The diamond was as described. I could have chosen a Crafted By Infinity or a true H&A from GOG with the same confidence. I would not buy a V&A stone, regardless of its performance, as a H&A. It is a different pattern with its own attributes. There needs to be clearly defined standards and parameters that don''t ''slide'' around. IMO, it doesn''t earn the confidence of your customer.
ETA: I do understand the difference between pattern and optical symmetry/performance. What has been said in this thread is not too difficult for the consumer to understand. What is difficult is why it is so important to call a V a heart.
BTW, I actually read all of the pages and responses before chiming in with my $.02, so please don''t flame me for it.
shay
I definitely agree with you that the term H&A is enjoying its current position of preeminence, and is likely to do so for years. And while I agree that the other patterns may not have that advantage, they do not have to be sold at a discount so long as they are presented properly and with adequate education. I know that Rhino is capable of this as at one time, back when they were much more popular than now, he was the #1 seller of EightStars in the country. This is a gem that at the time was going for at least double the price of a Hearts and Arrows diamond.
Any current discount would definitely be in the single digit amount, and I suspect in the low single digit column. This would be absolutely necessary to cover the cost of cutting the diamonds, as they will cost no less than a traditional H&A to manufacture.
Just for the record, I may have been out of line calling them butterflies and arrows but it was not meant maliciously. The stones are not deeply clefted enough to warrant being called "V"s and I needed to call them something as I had not yet been exposed to the brilliant term that Richard Sherwood would have used.
Also, as a relatively small merchant I could actually make a LOT more money selling the mall quality cuts, but my bottom line is I love the top qualities of diamonds that I get from Infinity and the colored gems that I get from Richard Homer. The bottom line for me is the satisfaction that I take from working with these treasures, and fortunately I have no board of directors strong enough to make me do it their way.
Many years ago long before Paul was in business, I was in Antwerp and got talked into buying a large (for me) parcel of "Flash for the Cash" diamonds. I sold the whole parcel, for more than triple the margin I make on a Hearts and Arrows cut in less than three weeks. Yet I have never done it again.
Why, you ask? Because I felt a little "unclean" every time I sold one and prayed that they would never come back to be traded up. I enjoyed the profits, but hated the selling, it just was not fun for me. I think that must be one of the advantages of being a relatively small family owned business.
In any case, thank you for your contribution to our discussion and my compliments for taking the time to read all of the posts.
Wink
P.S. Tell your therapist hi for me at your next session! (Brian the Cutter as per your tag line just in case you ever change it and someone then thinks I am being rude)
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So, in reading all of the above I get that you are willing to call it a modified Heart, and then towards the end that you are going to call it a heart.Date: 8/10/2008 3:10:09 AM
Author: Rhino
I see alots transpired. As usual jason you''ve hit the nail on the head again. Good to see you in here.Date: 8/10/2008 2:25:24 AM
Author: jasontb
We won''t argue about what lgfs are best for a given combo because you are right, I am not an expert on the topic (although I do know enough to know that the proportions that create a heart pattern are not necessarily the proportions that create the best performing stone...they are just the proportions that create a heart pattern). I really should not have even mentioned that in my reply, because one performing better than the other was not the point of my statement and only made it more difficult to see what I was getting at.
So, let me rephrase:
I dunno. Seems to me it is more about getting people to understand that there is no inherent benefit to a tradition H&A pattern over a modified H&A pattern (except for marketing, history, romance, tradition, and the ease of showing one''s customer their stone is ''best''). If it were just about the bottom line, people would not *intentionally* cut stones which displayed cleft hearts. They would just cut to the historical H&A dimensions and collect the extra money for ''passing'' an arbitrary set of rules devised to tug at the heart strings of consumers.
Shay and rising sun, thanks for you commentary. I don''t think you realize I could just as easily tell my facility to cut the lower girdles to 76-77%. They have dops ready for that and will cut me what I want. I have experimented based on personal research and I happen to really like the effects (as well as many consumers) of cutting the lower girdle facets longer. A few clients have even posted on here. Bem from Canada was one who comes to mind (although it wasn''t one of the specific ones we''re discussing, but it did have longer lgf''s like what we''re talking about). Please understand, cutting this pattern is not easier or less difficult than cutting a traditional pattern. One is not harder to attain so if this is the impression you''re getting and you think perhaps it''s about me trying to get more dollars because I''m trying to force a new pattern on others this is not the case. I''m not trying to take one cutting facilities mistakes and capitalize on them.
Let me clarify some things that seem to me to be misconceptions I''m reading in this thread.
1. I am not attacking the traditional H&A pattern. Long live traditional H&A! My inventory of rounds consistly primarily of this pattern and we provide photography to prove it. Always have always will.
2. Yes I am introducing a new pattern.
3. It is not a traditional H&A pattern.
4. It is neither better nor worse, than a traditional H&A. Neither in Optical Symmetry nor light performance.
5. It appears the hang-up I''m reading is the adjective being used in front of the words ''Hearts & Arrows'' that people are getting hung up about. I am not trying to equate the pattern with ''traditional'' H&A patterning. It clearly is not.
6. Rich Sherwood hit the nail on the head. It is a modifed Hearts & Arrows. Everyone seems happy with that adjective. I agree on both accounts. It''s not traditional and it is modified.
7. While it is not a traditional Hearts & Arrows pattern the pattern does not resemble a duck, a cake, a butterfly or the letter V. It resembles a Heart. Unless someone can show me some other international symbol it more closely resembles than a Heart, the same logic that drives me to call 76% lower halves a Heart is the same logic that drives me to call it a Heart.
8. I am not suggesting all perfectly symmetrical patterns be called Hearts when they do not resemble one. For example the pattern produced by 70-74% lower halves closes the V from the Heart leaving no distinguishing Heart pattern. I think Wink said it looked like a lawn dart.I think it looks more like a shortened golf tee.I am not suggesting that we enforce a name on a pattern that it clearly does not resemble.
Friends, I''m not trying to call something it isn''t ie. I''m not trying to identify it with a traditional Hearts & Arrows. At the same time I do not want to call it something it isn''t. Ie I''m not going to call it a butterfly when it clearly does not resemble a butterfly. My conscience will not allow me to call the pattern on the pavilion something other than a Hearts pattern and I don''t believe I am being unreasonable in my logic or approach. There is no other pattern on earth it most closely resembles than a Heart. Since it is a different type of Heart pattern from the traditional, I will ultimately name what I am having cut but I am of course open to suggestions. Rich, I really like your suggestion too and on an appraisal would be perfectly appropriate although a little on the sterile side when it comes to naming a diamond.You can charge me that extra $100 when we ship the next diamond to you for appraisal.Also if someone can show me a symbol that it resembles more closely than a Heart, please ... don''t argue with me. Post the symbol/graphic and I would be happy to consider that. I am not unreasonable.
Oh and last but not least. Marty ... Sergey is lying. We are all conspiring against you.
Warm regards,
If you are agreeing to market it as a modified heart, at least until you rename it, then the argument is over. If you are going to continue to market it as a heart, then we have just begin to battle. Could you please state your decision for us? Then I can get back to spending my weekends with my grand kids. Man it was FUN last night. Only problem with rough housing with a 2 year old and a 4 year old is that they do NOT get tired, long after you have lost the ability to draw a full breath...
Wink
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That is why I allways say "she" shouldn''t be involved, result is empty wallets. Very astute GarryDate: 8/10/2008 8:20:55 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
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But then it makes it easier for merchants to upsell if "she" is here, we all know how that goes, guy can''t be honest about his budget....
Not that I''m a little cynical about most B&M merchants, there are some who separate the couple so that a litlle man to man personal talk can be had, like "what is your honest budget? and we can maximizse benefits around that".
That is what is good about the internet like PS, and has made me a few enemies in the B&M front, especially among the schlock merchants who you always see "guaranteed to appraise for twice the price".
I have a top end custom jeweler friend who has sometimes fired clients, refused to work with them, because there are clients from hell.
If you ask for an answer here on PS, don''t be surprized if you get the truth, and not the answer you want to hear, or one that may be politically correct necessarily.
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LMAO! Yes Rich ... OF COURSE!!! I'm sure all of my competitor's will agree especially the local HOF dealers. The Open Heart is the most likely candidate at this time as one of three flavors of 57 facet optically symmetric cutting we are pursuing.
Wink thank you for understanding the simple logic by which I am approaching this and my desire to both distinguish it from the traditional pattern yet not do it an injustice by calling it something it isn't.
And on that note ....
By gosh ... has hell froze over?
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No, like Storm you and I agree a lot more than people think, it is just when we don''t, there be thunder!Date: 8/11/2008 12:18:59 PM
Author: Rhino
LMAO! Yes Rich ... OF COURSE!!! I''m sure all of my competitor''s will agree especially the local HOF dealers. The Open Heart is the most likely candidate at this time as one of three flavors of 57 facet optically symmetric cutting we are pursuing.
Wink thank you for understanding the simple logic by which I am approaching this and my desire to both distinguish it from the traditional pattern yet not do it an injustice by calling it something it isn''t.
And on that note ....
By gosh ... has hell froze over?
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Past, Present, Future: The Meaning of Three-Stone Engagement Rings
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