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Trade in policies and slight of hand

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sjlammer

Rough_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 11, 2013
Messages
48
First time post. Thanks for all i have learned so far.

I bought a diamond engagement ring (1.17 Round Brilliant,I,VS2,cut VG) a few years ago for $7,100 (insurance appraisal for $10,000) from a brick and mortar retailer and felt like I got treated fairly. I was told I would be given full value if i wanted to trade up. I got given this ring back, sad story, but better off now because of it. I also bought a pair of diamond stud earrings from this jeweler for my current lady

Fast forward to the present, I have been working with this jeweler and feel like he is giving me a good deal on a new engagement ring (1.20 Oval, G, VS2) and a platinum halo with 0.70 cttw in matching stones for about $10,500. I bring up how the tax is calculated on the trade in, and he is states he thought I sold the ring to a friend (i tried several times). He also now states that the stipulation on the full cash trade-in value is toward a ring that is at least 2x the value, which he never stated to me (or my father who bought a ring there). He says he needs to run the numbers and I get an email saying he can give me $2,700 for the trade-in, he still wants my business, but he gave me an aggressive number on the ring I'm buying without knowing about the trade.

When I bought the earrings I asked him about the trade in policy and he again stated the full value deal, without saying 2x the price. I asked how they made money on that, and he said that they try to recoup some on the sale of the traded in diamond but they don't make as much. However, the relationship is more important.

I feel pretty bad about this for the obvious reason that now i have to come out of pocket with a lot more money.

I've checked with some online buyers in NYC and they will give me around 3,500 to 4,000 for the diamond, so he basically is giving me the lowest end of trade in on this ring.

What do you all think about this?
 
What does your paperwork say is the trade in policy on there?
 
Have you paid anything on the new ring?
I would not give the jeweler one cent and would tell him to jump in a lake if you haven't or if its refundable.
Then I go on yelp and leave a scathing review, sticking to the facts and file a BBB complaint if there is nothing in the paperwork about it.
 
So, looking at comps, prices vary but i came up with around $10k. so the price he's giving you for the stone and setting is really not bad especially for B&M who are usually fairly high. $2800 seems on par for a halo with that total carat weight. So again, for a B&M store it is probably a very fair price until you calculate what he offered you on the trade in.

Stones to compare to: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/oval-cut/?CaratFrom=1.19&CaratTo=1.25&Color=G&Clarity=VS2&PriceFrom=200&PriceTo=&Sort=Price, DefaultOrder&ViewsOptions=Images&advancedParameter=Flour&showAdvanced=show&Shape=oval&Polish=&Symmetry=&Lab=&Flour=None,Negligible&DepthFrom=45&DepthTo=80&TableFrom=50&TableTo=83

The trade in policy change and what he offered you bugs me. Does he have anything in writing in-store or online about his trade in policy? anything on your original receipt? Do you WANT to stick with him? I would be inclined to sell somewhere else and move on to another vendor for your new ring.
 
It doesn't say on the paperwork. It says the twice the value online.
 
I don't feel compelled to stay with him. I felt good about the transactions so far, which is difficult to do for expensive purchases.

However, I feel like what he told me and what he's doing don't match up. I would have been willing to take small kick in the pants, but it looks like he is just going to sell my diamond to a wholesaler.

If he had said, I gave you a good deal because of our relationship. I honestly didn't know about the trade-in, I can give you $5,500 because i need to be able to make something on the next sale, it would have feet better.

I don;t know if i go to another store if I will end up with a better deal.
 
Karl_K said:
Did you buy online or at the store?
Click to expand...

I bought it at the store. I would bet they have a sign somewhere that i just didn't see.
 
No i haven't given him anything yet.

I don't feel like he is trying to screw me, but I also don't feel like he's giving me his best at this point.

Am i wrong?
Karl_K said:
Have you paid anything on the new ring?
I would not give the jeweler one cent and would tell him to jump in a lake if you haven't or if its refundable.
Then I go on yelp and leave a scathing review, sticking to the facts and file a BBB complaint if there is nothing in the paperwork about it.
Click to expand...
 
I agree with @Karl_K. The fact that the jeweler hasn't bothered to explain their upgrade policy bothers me. Giving you such a low offer on the diamond you bought from him when he's already making money (no matter how "aggressive" his price was) on your purchase bothers me more.

Quick question: do the diamonds come with GIA or AGS paperwork? Most of the time here we assume that the diamond comes with GIA paperwork, but if it doesn't then the comparables online aren't really comparable.
 
HDer said:
I agree with @Karl_K. The fact that the jeweler hasn't bothered to explain their upgrade policy bothers me. Giving you such a low offer on the diamond you bought from him when he's already making money (no matter how "aggressive" his price was) on your purchase bothers me more.

Quick question: do the diamonds come with GIA or AGS paperwork? Most of the time here we assume that the diamond comes with GIA paperwork, but if it doesn't then the comparables online aren't really comparable.
Click to expand...

Both are GIA
 
sjlammer said:
No i haven't given him anything yet.

I don't feel like he is trying to screw me, but I also don't feel like he's giving me his best at this point.

Am i wrong?
Click to expand...
How you feel is how you feel so its hard to say that's wrong exactly.
Would I be mad and upset about it and blast him and not give him any more money. Yes I would.
You may not feel that way and its not my place to tell you how to feel.
 
Start over fresh here. See what the people can find you. With your "real" new budget, excluding any possible trade money. You already laid out that initial buy (7100). It is now worth $2700 to HIM for a trade in (is that for the whole ring or stone only?). And $3500-$4000 to random diamond buyers (outright - stone only).

WithOUT that money, what is your budget for this new ring? People here can help search.

You could either sell the old ring outright, (to one of these NYC guys you mentioned), on your own, consign it through somewhere like Love Affair Diamonds or Jewels by Grace, or keep it make your lady a pendant or reset the old stone into her dream setting.
 
The 2x thing is fairly typical with trade-in programs, but it’s also fairly typical is to have the entire program in writing, and attached to the invoice. It’s covering their ass even more than it’s covering yours, if for no better reason than it avoids exactly the stress you’re having now. They're losing a customer over this, and for no particularly good reason other than sloppy paperwork and signage.

Be careful if you decide to sell to an online stranger. There are opportunities for shenanigans on that end too.
 
I'd say my budget is 10k plus or minus 2k.

Looking for a very elongated oval 1.5 ratio. F,G color, very little bow tie, VS1 to a very clean S1. The stone that was found was a 1.2ct, oval, G, VS2, 1.5 ra

Here are some pics and the cad

The cad is hard to see, but the end stones are 2.2 mm, dropping to 1.8mm on the sides. The side stones are tucked a little to accentuate the length.

My lady has slender fingers that she is proud of ;-)

1-N6182.jpgCapture-N6182.JPG2-N6182.jpg
IMG_0589.PNG IMG_0590.PNG
 
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OP, unfortunately, we have heard about similar situations with some B&M retailers. I am sorry that you are in this situation, but I am also slightly confused. Does your paperwork actually state the policy? You mentioned it says 2x the value, does it say for what period of time the trade up program is valid, etc?

I have a problem with the jeweler lowballing you for your existing stone, but I don't see why if there is indeed a 2x upgrade policy, you can't just pick a slightly more expensive/larger diamond that will bring you to the higher value.
I do think that this relationship is already stressed and if he realizes that you are going for the upgrade, he may up his prices on other stones, so you don't get such a great "deal".
Alternatively, is there any way that you can just keep the existing stone, perhaps set it a pendant for your lady and save up a little longer for the engagement ring that she wants (and hopefully with a different retailer)?
For example, here is an amazing pre-loved, handforged halo ring: https://loupetroop.com/listings/rin...-split-shank-ring-1-dot-67-carat-g-vs1-center
Obviously, this will be above budget at this time, but it is to show that there are "deals" out there.

Last comment (and I realize that this is personal preference) but I am not loving the CAsD renderings. The halo is very "straight" (if you look st the above link, you will see how the halo is slightly tilted and that creates a beautiful profile), the setting also appears to have a lot of extra metal, I am not sure if that is something you wanted, but something that I personally would probably want removed (again different preferences maybe) and last - I don't understand why a different meleè size is used for the halo, this not an oval shape in a rectangular halo as to want to fill in the uneven extra space with different meleè size,I don't get it and I am not a fan of the look.

Please feel free to ignore all comments about the setting, if the setting is something your fiancé-to-be specifically wanted.
 
Wow that does seem like a good deal. The jeweler said the setting wouldn't be that bulky, it was just the way the cad showed it. As for the straight sides, she doesn't like the fat oval look, so by getting an oval with a high ratio 1.5, and the changing stone size from end to side accentuates the length of the piece. Not sure how it will look in actuality. I will do some rethinking on the size and the tilt of the halo.

Thanks for your thoughts, it's given me some
Things to think about
 
sjlammer said:
Wow that does seem like a good deal. The jeweler said the setting wouldn't be that bulky, it was just the way the cad showed it. As for the straight sides, she doesn't like the fat oval look, so by getting an oval with a high ratio 1.5, and the changing stone size from end to side accentuates the length of the piece. Not sure how it will look in actuality. I will do some rethinking on the size and the tilt of the halo.

Thanks for your thoughts, it's given me some
Things to think about
Click to expand...

Another thought - perhaps you should just look for an elongated oval, instead of trying to make this one something it is not..
I am skeptical about the look after CAD, CADs show more metal, but not that much more. This setting reminds me of vintage illusion metal halo settings, see below. I actually think that they are pretty on their own, but perhaps it becomes a bit much when there is a halo plus extra metal. That's just my 2c.
IMG_6562.JPG

P.S. The seller of the SK ring that I linked has indicated that the price is negotiable..mayyybe something to think about. Just an FYI that handforged setting alone cost around 4-5K new.
 
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The oval in that setting was already a 1.5 ratio, which is at the top end of what I've seen, and what he could find. The other option is a marquis with a halo to take away some of the point, but I'm not sure we want to go with a marquis.

The setting was going to be finer, he just did it that way to show the shape of the elongated halo.

That oval on loupetroop looks awesome, but I think it will be too fat (round) for her fingers
 
I would run from that jeweler. I'd sell my diamond on LT and start over here. Give everyone your budget and let them find you a great stone in a high-quality setting. Those CAD's also give me pause.....
 
@sjlammer I think that the SK oval halo is perfection, but I won't be wearing the ring :oops2:

Ok, as you mentioned marquise, I think I know what your fiancé-to-be wants - a moval! I personally adore them; they have the soft shape of an oval, but are very elongated as a marquise. Its is an antique cut, which will show chunky-monkey flashes, which again, I find to be very beautiful.

There are not frequently seen, but here are some available:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/1-36ct-antique-moval-cut-diamond-gia-h-vvs2 - this is your desired size, a grade down in color.
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/1-84ct-antique-moval-diamond-gia-f-si2 - this is a very elongated moval and extremely clean SI2! Mostly clear twinning wisps, which should be invisible to the nacked eye.

Btw someone like DK can create a great halo within budget. See example: https://instagram.com/p/BU67vLDgEu3/
 
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SimoneDi said:
@sjlammer I think that the SK oval halo is perfection, but I won't be wearing the ring :oops2:

Ok, as you mentioned marquise, I think I know what your fiancé to be wants - a moval! I personally adore then, I think that they have the soft shape of an oval, but are very elongated as a marquise. Its is an antique cut, which will give a chunky-monkey flashes, which again I think are very beautiful.

There are not frequently seen, but here are some available:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/1-36ct-antique-moval-cut-diamond-gia-h-vvs2 - this is your desired size, a grade down in color.
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/1-84ct-antique-moval-diamond-gia-f-si2 - this is a very elongated moval and extremely clean SI2! Mostly clear twinning wisps, which should be invisible to the nacked eye.

Btw someone like DK can create a great halo within budget. See example: https://instagram.com/p/BU67vLDgEu3/
Click to expand...


Yes I was going to say Moval! I just haven't seen many. She is very sensitive to color, don't ask me how, but she is like a hawk. She can pic the colors our face up. I just haven't seen that many movals. Can you get them cut custom?

What is SK and DK? Sorry I'm not up on all the initials. Thanks for sending those movals!
 
sjlammer said:
Yes I was going to say Moval! I just haven't seen many. She is very sensitive to color, don't ask me how, but she is like a hawk. She can pic the colors our face up. I just haven't seen that many movals. Can you get them cut custom?

What is SK and DK? Sorry I'm not up on all the initials. Thanks for sending those movals!
Click to expand...

I have seen Movals mostly on Grace's site (the ones shared). I think the 1.84ct one is a great deal plus very white (F color). Also, antiques are not found frequently in high colors, so that makes it special as well. I don't think that anybody cuts movals these days, I have only seen them as vintage cuts, but don't quote me on that ;-)

SK - Steven Kirsch (that is the LT halo ring), he is located in NYC
DK - David Klass, he is located in LA
 
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i was going to suggest a moval too :twirl: That 1.84 is really lovely BUT the culet is pretty large and that's not a look everyone would like. I'd clear it with her before moving on it. If the culet is an issue, maybe give Grace a call and see if she can find you another moval with a smaller culet? It's a lot to ask, as SimoneDi brought out, movals are mostly vintage stones so a high color/clarity/small culet is a pretty tall order.

I DO think that maybe a less elongated stone and custom halo to appear as if it's elongated is a good choice too. I seem to remember someone posting a pear that had a custom halo to make it appear chubbier and it was very subtle. (i looked but couldn't find the thread on it) But i wouldn't go to just anyone for a custom setting. there are a lot of small details that can make or break the fluidity of the design.

here is an example of a marquise in an oval shape halo, i couldn't find a whole lot of images!

https://a.1stdibscdn.com/archivesE/upload/j_548/j_198678/382_351_5116_l.jpg
 
Just another word about trade ins. Even a written policy can be useless because unless the vendor lists his stock online with prices, there is very little transparency.
That is one of the reasons I dealt with WF when I purchased my diamond studs.
 
I spoke with grace and she said there aren't a lot of Movals. She said she could have a marquis recut to round the points. What do you all think of this?
 
sjlammer said:
I spoke with grace and she said there aren't a lot of Movals. She said she could have a marquis recut to round the points. What do you all think of this?
Click to expand...

There is always some risk with recuts..from a trade-in, upgrade perspective, you would probbaly lose all of that. I don't know.. I personally would either consider one of the vintage movals/marquise available or look for an oval with 1.75 L/W ratio, or a marquise.

IMG_6565.JPG
 
In the vein of doing the right thing....
What about discussing this topic in a forthright manner with the jewelry store? Let them know why you're upset.
You can let them know about this discussion and the other internet options you're considering.
Maybe if given the chance, they will do the right thing. Of course, maybe they won't, but after what you've been through with them, why not at least try?
It might sound weird, as an internet diamond seller, but I have a soft spot for those jewelry stores that are left.
 
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