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Trade in for upgrade question

Cachette

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
1,630
Would one vendor accept another vendor's diamond (their own brand) as trade in towards the purchase of another, bigger diamond or would it be better for me to communicate with the original vendor for the trade in (diamond was bought with a life time trade in policy)? The reason being that the vendor I initially dealt with does not seem to have what I'm looking for in terms of size and price as the other one has a stone I'm very interested in. It wouldn't be a big jump in size but I'm taking baby steps towards my forever diamond e-ring. The steady increase in diamond prices has me scared that I'll never get to the size I want so I thought that by purshasing stratigically that I could eventually get to the size I want without having to wait and save forever. This way I get to enjoy a "new" ring every few years or so. What would you do and is this a wise move?

Thanks for much!!

Cachette :))
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,174
At first trade up policies seem groovy because when we sell we lose a lot of money.
Retailers can get much more for the same diamond than you or I as a private seller.

The policies do have drawbacks though.
Trade in polices only promise you the original price you paid, so what if prices have gone up a lot since you have bought it?
That is the case now for many of us who have bought as recently as a year ago.

If you paid $10,000 and they would relist it today at $15,000 you may come out ahead selling it privately.

Next, the policies are intended to keep you as a customer of the original vendor - NOT being lost to a competitor.
Whether other vendors will accept it as a trade in will really come down to money and how desirable your stone is.
If it has the 4Cs that are in high demand by their customers, and you are willing to sell it at a low enough price, I think any vendor would accept it.
For a few bucks they could even polish off the name of the original vendor laser-etched on the girdle and get a new lab report.

There are no guarantees about future diamond prices, but . . .
I suspect they are going nowhere but UP UP UP, largely because of population and affluence explosions in India and China.
This would mean that planing several upgrades that are baby steps is a sure way to lose money.

If you are sure you will eventually get a certain size, and can swing it financially, I think overall it is best to bite the bullet and buy your final diamond today.
 

Cachette

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
1,630
Thanks Kenny. :))

I did buy the stone a couple years back at a good price and it's a AGS Ideal. I currently have it set as a pendant but would like to upgrade it to make an e-ring out of it (currently just wear an eternity band as my current e-ring is tiny). I'm not looking at a huge increase in size at this time but something that will look good with the band (stone is .58 and would like to get to .75 or so).

I don't live in an area where there would be a market to sell privately and my one local jeweller doesn't take trade ins so my best bet would be to go back to the original vendor and see what I can negociate with them. Do you think it would be ok to contact another vendor and see what they would do for me? I am sooooo terrible with negociating it's pathetic and I dislike doing it a lot but I really want a bigger e-ring and am willing to give it a shot and the Canadian dollar is worth more now (I'm in Canada) so this would also help with the cost of buying from an American online vendor.

Thanks again and I appreciate any other feedback and help with just how to negociate (a quick Negociating 101 course perhaps ;)) )

Cachette :))
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,360
I would trade in with the original vendor, who is it by the way? Can they call in a stone that meets your needs and meets their requirements for upgradeing?

Also, if you can swing it, I would go straight to the size you want now.

Three years ago I started upgrading -- .80ct --> 1.16ct --> 1.20ct (color change) --> 1.67ct. The total cost to me was about $12k including all the settings and shipping fees etc. If I had bought my current diamond three years ago, the total cost to me would have been about $9k. A substantial difference. I wish now I had rustled up the credit to buy what I wanted then, because the interest to pay off the ring would have been much less than the inflation and cost of setting. many credit cards offer balance transfers of 0% or 0.9% interest, and you can always transfer from card to card to keep the interest low. It is not usually my advice, but it is what I wish I had done in hindsight. I am shocked at how much diamonds are escalating in price now.

PS: I am canadian too! The exchange rate will not stay par long term, it never does, so that is another reason to get what you want now.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,360
And I see you are working with WF. A good vendor to keep an upgrade policy with, in my opinion, because you have flexibility about the diamond you want and you can call in stones of the virtual list that are upgradable (ES qualifying). They can find you a stone in their virtual inventory that meets their ES standards and thus maintains your policies. No problem. They did it for me recently.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,174
Cachette|1303406769|2901951 said:
Thanks again and I appreciate any other feedback and help with just how to negociate (a quick Negociating 101 course perhaps ;)) )
One thing about negotiating is recognizing there are two levels, the surface and what's beneath the surface.
Bad negotiators just operate at, and belive, only what's on the surface.
"Well, she said that was her final price, and she started to get upset, so what could I do?"

Both sides want the best deal so they'll say X when their secret final price may be Y.
They hope you accept X and use psychology to win.
It's a game.

Play the game and don't take it personally.
If you see yourself as a nice polite person who may end up paying too much because of it, be an actor playing the part of a strong aggressive negotiator.
They play the game, you can too.
Practice with a friend.

BTW when a transaction involves negotiating there is no such thing as a single proper "fair" price.
They want you to fall for that so you pull out your checkbook sooner.
Some say if your opponent didn't get upset, then you paid too much.

Be aware that negotiating varies a great deal with culture.
If your "opponent" is not from your culture you may want to read up on negotiating traditions in her/his culture.
 

Cachette

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
1,630
Thanks Dreamer_D!

That's exactly what I wanted to hear (read!)! I followed your upgrades closely and in fact you are the inspiration that started me thinking about taking baby steps because in the end you were able to enjoy your rings at every stage until your final (?? :bigsmile: ) upgrade (which is just GORGEOUS BTW!!)

I like your idea with the credit and I'm sure a lot of people will disagree but we aren't all the position to be able to find the cash to purchase our dream stone (and please, I am not saying this to be nasty at all ok :)) ). I am very, very passionate about diamonds and it is my obsession therefore I would consider this route to get what I want - others do it with cars, travel etc so this is no different (I think anyways :)) )

And it is WF that I bought from and I may just get in touch with them shortly to see what can be done.

Thanks for the negociating tips Kenny!! Wonderful! :wavey:

Cachette :))
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,360
This is my forever stone! Prices have gotten too high. There is an upper limit in my own mind as to what I am willing to spend on such a frivolous thing, and I basically hit it last year with this diamond. With the increase in prices in recent months, a bigger stone is not going to happen. I would not spend what it would take to get a bigger stone at this point, even if I wanted it.

I did enjoy all my rings... to a point ;)) The always wanting something different got to me a little on the way. And as I said, I could have saved a bit of money if I had gotten what I wanted from the start. I enjoy change, but I would rather at this point change my ring setting than the diamond. It is much less pricey!
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,630
The great thing about WhiteFlash is that they get new stones in every few weeks! I would absolutely want an ACA (or ES) rather than a virtual stone from them since they have their own stones cut. That, to me, is the whole reason to buy from them. Just watch and be a little patient because they will get more in in the size range you are looking for. But do call and ask when the next stones will be coming in!
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,360
diamondseeker2006|1303431041|2902277 said:
The great thing about WhiteFlash is that they get new stones in every few weeks! I would absolutely want an ACA (or ES) rather than a virtual stone from them since they have their own stones cut. That, to me, is the whole reason to buy from them. Just watch and be a little patient because they will get more in in the size range you are looking for. But do call and ask when the next stones will be coming in!
I am not sure about this when it comes to the ES stones anyways? Maybe Allison can let us know.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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ES stones are the ones that just missed being ACA. They have a stones cut and not all make AGS000 when they are sent to AGS or they do not have perfect H&A. Some of the great buys IMO are stones that miss ideal on polish! Some of those are in Premium Select. There could be stones that make it into ES or PS, but they primarily cut their own in-house rounds...or at least that has always been my understanding!
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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diamondseeker2006|1303434077|2902312 said:
ES stones are the ones that just missed being ACA. They have a stones cut and not all make AGS000 when they are sent to AGS or they do not have perfect H&A. Some of the great buys IMO are stones that miss ideal on polish! Some of those are in Premium Select. There could be stones that make it into ES or PS, but they primarily cut their own in-house rounds...or at least that has always been my understanding!
Mine too, but as I have worked more with the various vendors I suspect that a) stones are no longer cut just for a particular company (rather they have special relationships with specific cutting houses) and b) they will sometimes call said vendors to locate stones that meet their standards to see what comes down the pipe. I have no idea what the specifics are abotu where WF gets their diamonds (or any of the other favourite PS vendors who sell branded stones). Every company is different I guess. I would be curious to know exactly how it works, mostly for curiosity. As I said, in my case, one of my earrings is an ACA but the other was called in from one of WFs favourite suppliers because it met the qualifications for an ES. If I trade it in, it will be an ES. But it was not cut for them specifically to my knowledge. Anyways, to me these details don't matter so much as long as the cut is great and the upgrade/buyback policies are intact, I don't personally care for whom the diamonds were cut.
 

Jim Summa

Shiny_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 9, 2009
Messages
176
Hi Kenny,

I saw your reply, and while you make a good point about jewelers making money on in-store diamond trade-ups, I can't apologize for it.

Personally, I offer a full trade-up policy and it's a great guarantee to my customers. Obviously, in offering this guarantee, I'm predicting that diamond prices will rise or at least stay the same but that is a risk. I remember the financial crisis of 2008, when prices sagged badly and business paused. At that time my risk was very high.

With prices going up and probably still increasing, the policy might seem one sided but it still is a guarantee I offer. That guarantee is there whether it's in my favor, becomes a neutral prospect or winds up going against me. And yes, if prices go up enough there might be the possibility that a consumer can get a better deal than my guarantee. It is, however, not as easy as you depict it.

Personally, I'm always interested to see diamonds come in my shop that I didn’t sell originally. I'll consider taking them in if it gives me the chance of creating a new diamond customer. But my next step in that case would be to ask Paul of Infinity to re-cut it to his standards so I can later sell it with pride.
Before I can make an offer I must take time figuring out how much weight I will lose on the re-cut, the time and risk during the re-cut process and must figure out what the time-frame for reselling it depending on demand in that particular color/clarity. So in each case I have to ask if it will be practical or not.

In some cases my offer may even be higher than the price the customer paid years ago. But in many cases I'm sure that the upgrade-guarantee is still preferable.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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Dreamer_D|1303443583|2902405 said:
diamondseeker2006|1303434077|2902312 said:
ES stones are the ones that just missed being ACA. They have a stones cut and not all make AGS000 when they are sent to AGS or they do not have perfect H&A. Some of the great buys IMO are stones that miss ideal on polish! Some of those are in Premium Select. There could be stones that make it into ES or PS, but they primarily cut their own in-house rounds...or at least that has always been my understanding!
Mine too, but as I have worked more with the various vendors I suspect that a) stones are no longer cut just for a particular company (rather they have special relationships with specific cutting houses) and b) they will sometimes call said vendors to locate stones that meet their standards to see what comes down the pipe. I have no idea what the specifics are abotu where WF gets their diamonds (or any of the other favourite PS vendors who sell branded stones). Every company is different I guess. I would be curious to know exactly how it works, mostly for curiosity. As I said, in my case, one of my earrings is an ACA but the other was called in from one of WFs favourite suppliers because it met the qualifications for an ES. If I trade it in, it will be an ES. But it was not cut for them specifically to my knowledge. Anyways, to me these details don't matter so much as long as the cut is great and the upgrade/buyback policies are intact, I don't personally care for whom the diamonds were cut.
Yes, I do think that is how non-WF cut round stones can end up in ES (virtual stones that are traded in). As far as I know, Brian Gavin and WF are the only two that have their own H&A stones cut to their specifications by a specific factory. The ones that don't qualify for ACA or Signature will usually go to ES or BG Select. Others such as GOG search various suppliers and bring in stones they like for their stock. GOG does have cutters cutting their August Vintage line, though. I am sure both BG and WF have other shape stones in their inventory that are not cut by them. I am really talking about the ideal cut rounds they carry in-house.
 

pinkprashu

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
352
Yes WF does offer some stones that are in their virtual inventory that meet their expert selection standards as ES. The first diamond I bought from them was from their virtual inventory and they offered to sell it to me as an ES diamond. I recently traded it in and it is currently listed as an ES diamond and is probably the only one with a GIA certificate. But I would agree that most of their ES diamonds are the ones that missed the ACA cut. Here is a link to the diamond I traded in -

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-358382.htm
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
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Jim Summa|1303495553|2902745 said:
Hi Kenny,
I saw your reply, and while you make a good point about jewelers making money on in-store diamond trade-ups, I can't apologize for it.
Oh my goodness, of course you should feel no need to apologize.
You have done nothing wrong by offering a trade up policy.
A businesses' business IS to make money.
Nothing wrong with that.

I'm just pointing out other factors to consider with these policies.
 

Allison D.

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
2,282
Dreamer_D|1303433128|2902306 said:
diamondseeker2006|1303431041|2902277 said:
The great thing about WhiteFlash is that they get new stones in every few weeks! I would absolutely want an ACA (or ES) rather than a virtual stone from them since they have their own stones cut. That, to me, is the whole reason to buy from them. Just watch and be a little patient because they will get more in in the size range you are looking for. But do call and ask when the next stones will be coming in!
I am not sure about this when it comes to the ES stones anyways? Maybe Allison can let us know.
Dreamer, generally speaking, our ES inventory comes mostly from our siteholder but may also include stones from other sources as well.

The criteria for inclusion is less source-sensitive and more quality-sensitive. ES stones have to earn top cut grade scores from the grading lab, so they usually miss the ACA qualification for some minor flaw in the H&A pattern or some other minor brand criteria variance. Still, they are fantastic stones for the money and will absolutely go toe-to-toe with other top-ranked diamonds.
 

Cachette

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
1,630
Thanks Allison for the clarification. :wavey:

I will keep looking to see if new stones come in (ES's and ACA's). My current stone is an ACA and it's stunning but I bet the ES's hold their own. :)

I've got a good idea of what I'm looking for and I hope to find it soon before prices rise again! Yikes! I'm not too clear as to how to examine stones in the virtual selection because all it tells me is its size, depth, table and cut grade but I'll keep looking. I don't want to waste too much time (and somebody elses!!) asking about every stone so should I just concentrate on their (WF) in house stones??

Thank you!

Cachette :))
 

jstarfireb

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Messages
6,231
diamondseeker2006|1303434077|2902312 said:
ES stones are the ones that just missed being ACA. They have a stones cut and not all make AGS000 when they are sent to AGS or they do not have perfect H&A. Some of the great buys IMO are stones that miss ideal on polish! Some of those are in Premium Select. There could be stones that make it into ES or PS, but they primarily cut their own in-house rounds...or at least that has always been my understanding!
Ditto, and ES stones can be great buys because of this. I upgraded my pendant stone from an ACA to an ES. The only reason the stone missed ACA was that it has medium blue fluor, which I was specifically looking for! My guess is that WF thought it would make ACA, sent it to AGS, then had to downgrade it to ES because came back with a grading of medium blue fluor. Which saved me a nice wad of cash - I got an ACA-quality cut at ES prices!
 

hoofbeats95

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Nov 23, 2008
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I hope I'm allowed to say/ask this. But when did you get your ACA from WF? If Brian was there at the time, BGD will accept trade-ins on those ACAs. That might open options for you in terms of more selection. Of course then you would be locked with BGD to trade the next time. Those ACAs that were bought during his time at WF are eligible for trade at either company. It's rare (and lukcy) to have two choices of jewelers to trade imo.
 

Cachette

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hoofbeats95|1303737415|2904487 said:
I hope I'm allowed to say/ask this. But when did you get your ACA from WF? If Brian was there at the time, BGD will accept trade-ins on those ACAs. That might open options for you in terms of more selection. Of course then you would be locked with BGD to trade the next time. Those ACAs that were bought during his time at WF are eligible for trade at either company. It's rare (and lukcy) to have two choices of jewelers to trade imo.

Thanks hoofbeats95! I was actually wondering the same thing because I knew that he cut the ACA's with WF but I don't know if he was there in May 2009 or not when I got the pendant. Will have to find out (hint, hint to anybody knowing the answer :bigsmile: ). I've been eying his inventory for a while now and noticed a few stones that interest me so it would be nice to have more options opened to me. I've had excellent service with WF and my transactions with them ran super smoothly but I'd be happy to work with another vendor.

Truth be told, I'm thinking of adding my ACA studs to the mix (.33 and .34 that I got in 2007) either as side stones for a nice 3 stone ring (BGD crossed trellis or WF's Butterflies) or to trade in for the upgrade but I'm not sure yet as this would leave me with no studs to wear but those I could get down the road (bigger ones too! :devil: :bigsmile: ).

I've got to really think about what I truly want and although it may seem like an easy decision to make it isn't for me. I also have to figure out how this all works and how much it will cost to even send my stone(s) to the vendor and how much the setting would cost and what the total cost (duties and taxes) would be and all that jazz. :))

Cachette :))
 

hoofbeats95

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Messages
1,442
He wasn't there in 09. I believe he left in Dec of 08. We got my ACA in Nov 08 and I panicked when I read he was leaving a month later! lol.
 

Amys Bling

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
11,025
I think you should figure out what you ultimately want as doing multiple trade-insover the years ESP. If diamond prices continue to rise may cost you more In the end.

So 3 stone or big solitaire? Trading in earrings or keeping them for a three stone? Think it through for a little...
 
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