Topic? Diamonds, of course...

[RDJ]

Hi gang,

A question for you kind people:

I''m new to diamonds. Very new. But being a programmer with a degree in English (don''t ask), I''ve spent the last 7 days neck deep in tutorials, measurements, diamond reports, discussion forums, web-sites, and books. I know that isn''t very long, but I''m a fairly quick study. I can recite AGA 1A cut dimensions in my sleep. I''m hip to the limitations of a Tolkowsky cut. I''ve come to a clear understanding of types of inclusions, and their signficance to the appearance and valuation of a diamond. I''ve looked at price differences in loose diamonds across countless sites. You get the picture.

I know enough to be dangerous to myself, and/or to realize that I barely know anything - your choice. But hey - I''m trying.

My question is a more practical one, however. I see many of you posting diamond specs for price and quality comments on this forum. Joe Citizen posts the details of his diamond (including Sarin analysis info on crown and pavillion angles), and asks for opinions. This is great...unfortunately, while shopping online for a diamond, I rarely see such information associated with a diamond. Everyone seems to provide GIA cert info (or AGS, etc. etc.), but no detailed information on the cut of the diamond necessary to use the Holloway Cut advisor before the ordering of the diamond!

Am I missing something? Is there a secret button I can push at Pricescope quotes that will magically reveal the angles I need? Or am I to assume that you all have actually received the diamonds you are asking about, and have personally paid for a Sarin analysis, and are going to send back the inferior choice? Blue Nile, USA Certed Diamonds, Pricescope, etc. etc....I''ve looked at them all, and I seem to come up short. I would love to use the Holloway Cut Advisor while preparing for an internet diamond purchase, but I seem to be short on the crucial information about the cuts of the diamond I am buying.

Any light you can shed would be much appreciated, and good luck everyone on your diamond hunting!

RDJ

p.s. I suppose this could be summed up in one sentence: I want to use the HCA before an online purchase, but I don''t see the necessary angle information at most sites. I guess I talk alot.

 

[photogold]

Usually, you have to ask the vendors for the Sarin report data. I would not buy online unless I had this information first.

 

[RDJ]

Thanks for the reply - yes, I was not going to proceed with any internet purchasing without that information. Yet the near total absence of it from most online diamond sites concerned me. Apparently I simply have to call/email and ask for the Sarin info on a particular diamond?

RDJ

 

[shurikt]

----------------
On 2/5/2003 1:44:46 PM RDJ wrote:
Apparently I simply have to call/email and ask for the Sarin info on a particular diamond?
----------------

Yep. Also, on the front page of pricescope, there is a "search by cut quality" link that will search through pricescope listed diamonds with known crown and pavillion angles. It's a much smaller universe, but it's there.

Oh, and welcome to the world of knowing just enough to be dangerous.

 

[barry]

RDJ;

Understand your interest in getting this information.
We do supply complete online MegaScope data
and the HCA scores directly on our website.

Barry
www.superbcert.com

 

[justme]

RDJ -

Welcome to our world!

You are correct in that you have to ask for sarin reports if not give upfront.

A couple of other sights that list detailed cut info

www.whiteflash.com (A Cut Above dealer)
www.goodoldgold.com (also has a great education section)

Also, be aware that angles provide a more accurate result when using HCA.

Justme

 

[barry]

Justme;

Just a FYI, Whiteflash is not a SuperbCert seller.

We sell direct to the public as well as having
Authorized Vendors.

regards,

Barry
www.superbcert.com

 

[justme]

Barry -

I'm sorry! Just started typing off the response with no thought to the fingers - since I had just read your post it came through to the post

Justme

 

[barry]

Just;

No problem.

Best,

Barry
www.superbcert.com

 

[RockDoc]

Why are you so concerned with the numbers? They are only 70 % predictable in a round stone and only 30% predictable as to the diamond's light return ability.

Suppose you got a 1A diamond that didn't perform..... ???? 30% chance of it.

How would you feel then?

Isn't the performance of the diamond more important than its proportion numbers?

Most cut grading systems are not complete. They consider that the stone is uniformly cut when such is not the case. I have yet to see a diamond with 8 equal crown angles and 8 equal pavilions main angles. We haven't yet gotten to the rest of the facets!!!!! The 40 mystery facets! Ignored by the cut grading systems which do have a highly pertinent affect on light refraction ability of the diamond.

Just curious to hear your answers....


Rockdoc

 

[StevL]

RDJ,
An answer to your question.

You asked: "Everyone seems to provide GIA cert info (or AGS, etc. etc.), but no detailed information on the cut of the diamond necessary to use the Holloway Cut advisor before the ordering of the diamond!"

.............
You either have to get a sarin/ogi report in addition to the GIA report, or you shop for a diamond with an AGS grading document. The AGS report already has these numbers published. You will find them on the upper right corner around the diamond diagram.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I want to do something better to help overcome this problem.

Rocdoc points out and we agree that it is a good idea to have stones shipped to independant appraisers FIRST.

But it makes sense to be shipping stones that have at least a 70% chance of being nice - since out there in cheaper non branded stones the odds are about 3% at the level that you will ship a stone to appraiser and it will be accepted (depending on your breif to the appraiser)

I would like to help use table and depth %'s and Leonid and I are about to talk about it

Another narrowing down tool.

 

[LesleyH]

Barry, you lost me ...Justme typed:

"A couple of other sights that list detailed cut info

www.whiteflash.com (A Cut Above dealer)
www.goodoldgold.com (also has a great education section)"

I don't see the word whiteflash and superbcert anywhere in the same sentence??? Or maybe it is just very late and I am missing something?

LesleyH
www.whiteflash.com

 

[optimized]

Hi Lesley,

I think I can answer this one for you, as I was mildly confused when I first read it too. Justme's first version of that post said "www.whiteflash.com (a superbcert seller)." When Barry pointed out the mistake Justme corrected the post. You can see the history of the post in question by clicking the "View revisions" link along the bottom of Justme's first post in this thread. All will be revealed.

-Tim

 

[justme]

Gee thanks Tim for outing my errors!

A brain fade moment forever locked in cyberspace.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 2/5/2003 6:52:39 PM RockDoc wrote:

Why are you so concerned with the numbers? They are only 70 % predictable in a round stone and only 30% predictable as to the diamond's light return ability.

Suppose you got a 1A diamond that didn't perform..... ???? 30% chance of it.

How would you feel then?

Isn't the performance of the diamond more important than its proportion numbers?

Most cut grading systems are not complete. They consider that the stone is uniformly cut when such is not the case. I have yet to see a diamond with 8 equal crown angles and 8 equal pavilions main angles. We haven't yet gotten to the rest of the facets!!!!! The 40 mystery facets! Ignored by the cut grading systems which do have a highly pertinent affect on light refraction ability of the diamond.

Just curious to hear your answers....


Rockdoc----------------

I have been a daily reader of this forum for a few months now, Rockdoc, so let me assure you that your position on diamonds is crystal clear......you believe that no one can be assured of their purchase without having it inspected by an independent appraiser .... like yourself, incidentally. We get it....believe me.

However.....that does not mean that all other information is useless, unreliable, or a waste of time. Smart consumers use a *variety* of information to feel comfortable about their possible purchases. If it makes me (or anyone else) feel better to see a megascope, a brilliance scope, a good HCA result, or even a letter from the Pentagon and/or the Vatican all verifying that the diamond I'm considering is of a certain quality, you should respect that. That doesn't mean we think these various numbers and results are an adequate substitute for an independent appraiser; nor do we think these reports are "the gospel" or guarantee in any way a perfect diamond. But if we get information from four or five measurement tools and ALL of them look fairly good, we as consumers feel better about the potential for a good purchase so we can send a diamond for appraisal.

In reading your posts, it seems as though you are quick to dismiss other measurement tools, and you seem to assume (wrongly) that people feel the numbers are the only important thing. In this particular instance, no one said that numbers are more important than the performance of a diamond. No one said that cut grading systems are complete. What RDJ said was "he wants to use the HCA", presumably as one more piece of the puzzle

Perhaps you don't realize that this approach of "my way is the only reliable way" can actually turn off potential clients, and that you're defeating your own purpose. When an appraiser constantly beats the drum that "my opinion is the only thing that matters", you sound eerily like the manager at the "maul", and that makes me want to run the other way.

I'm not trying to be critical.....I'm trying to help you in telling you that the "sledgehammer" approach may not be the best way to accomplish your goal.

 

[optimized]

aljdewey,

With no disrespect to RockDoc intended at all, I don't think I could have said it better myself so I won't try (for once)...

-Tim

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 2/6/2003 11:42:49 AM optimized wrote:

aljdewey,

With no disrespect to RockDoc intended at all, I don't think I could have said it better myself so I won't try (for once)...

-Tim

----------------

Thanks, Tim....and believe me, I intend no disrespect to Rockdoc at all, either. In fact, just the opposite....I find that he often has very meaningful things to contribute, perspectives which I appreciate. It would be a shame to see those perspectives devalued because of the appearance of bias.

It seems as though my experience and how I got here has been echoed many times over by others......we all found this site because we felt uneducated (and therefore disavantaged) about buying a diamond. For most of us, this purchase the is the most significant purchase we'll make after a house/vehicles.

This site gives many of us a way to educate ourselves to the point where we are confident in our abilities to at least weed out really bad performers and not get taken for a very expensive ride. I've learned more than I ever thought possible about diamonds, but I realize that knowledge doesn't qualify me as a gemologist with years of experience. Still and all, what I've learned makes me feel better about the money being spent on this purchase....and I sleep better at night knowing that.

 

[Lugus]

While I certainly would agree with a lot of what has been said here, I personally felt a LOT better sending my stone off to an appraiser. I have been learning about diamonds pretty intensly for over 4 months now. I know a lot, and I knew enough to pick a really great stone using every tool available to me. I knew I picked a really great stone before I sent it to an appraiser, but that's also why I sent it to him.

I wanted to know everything I could about it. I wanted to make sure all the cert info matched, and I wanted to see details about any inclusions, and if they would potentially cause problems with the durability of the stone. After purchasing a nice ring I will have spent over $20,000 on her engagement ring. For an extra few hundred dollars, its REALLY nice having an expert affirm all my assumptions and correct me when I was wrong.

I sent two diamonds to RocDoc to compare and I was very satisfied with the level of attention he gave me. He also took the time to answer every question I had (just like he says he will - he really does!) and helped to educate me about my particular stone. It was a really fun process, and I'm glad I did it.

Had I not sent the stones to RocDoc, I still would have picked the stone I did. But the knowledge I gained and the ability to get a good night sleep was well worth the investment.

 

[aljdewey]

Good points, Lugus......agree with everything you've said.

In fact, that was the point of my post.....that every piece of information has it's relative value, and that consumers do not have choose BETWEEN an appraiser OR these tools (brilliance scope, ideal scope, fire scope, HCA, sarin/ogi reports).....consumers can find value in both. They are not mutually exclusive of one another. You're a perfect example of that.....you used all the tools at your disposal to narrow the field, and then you used an appraiser to finalize your choice.

I would find it difficult to trust a vendor who tried to tell me that I should accept "the numbers" from B/scope, ideal-scope, etc. at face value and asked why do I care so much about sending it to an independent appraiser. Similarly, I find it difficult to trust an appraiser who suggests that "the numbers" don't really matter and that I should rely ONLY on his expert opinion.

What matters to any consumer is *whatever* it takes to make him feel comfortable about making an informed purchase.