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To rehab or not to rehab? heavy pic warning

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Mar 2, 2013
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HouseCat's recent thread made me think about this, as my loose OEC is not yet certed/wasn't cert'd when I bought it. It was appraised as an M, 1.52ct, VS2/SI1 while it was set, and a local jeweler confirmed the color (informally; didn't get a write-up/reappraisal) with his master set when it was removed from the previous setting.

Looking at it under the loupe, I don't know if the girdle would be considered thin, medium or thick, etc., and it has a couple flea bites. So I don't know if having it polished/rehabbed would improve the diamond without much loss in wt/dimension, or if what is visible in the pictures is normal/okay, and would not really make a difference. But if it could/should be polished/rehabbed, then I would think doing so before having it cert'd would make sense.

I've took a bunch of close/detailed pictures of it with my loupe and without, so I hope they help (I've only cropped them; no other enhancement), and will post them all to provide as many angles as possible (will take a couple posts to get them all loaded). Under normal viewing, it's just a beautiful, sparkly, eye clean diamond, and I almost don't like looking at it through the loupe and seeing its microscopic 'flaws'. :lol: But as I near trying to decide how to set it, I figure I might as well get it cert'd awhile so that is done, and don't know if there is cause for rehab or not. There are no major chips/cracks/etc. that I can see; my primary concern is the girdle, though I'm most likely to go bezel with setting choice.

Thanks much, in advance, for any input/thoughts. And please don't hesitate to be honest with your opinion/assessment. It's not going to make me love it less; just want the best advice on rehab or not. :wavey:

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diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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My opinion is that I would have it rehabbed. It has a lot of facet abrasion, chips on the edge of the table, etc. I would want it somewhat restored.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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diamondseeker2006|1457210838|4000302 said:
My opinion is that I would have it rehabbed. It has a lot of facet abrasion, chips on the edge of the table, etc. I would want it somewhat restored.
Thank you, DS! I saw those as well. Is that your recommendation from a personal 'mind clean' or preference perspective, or because it may impact grading, or both? If I understanding the grading, these would be a factor in assessing polish, correct (as opposed to clarity)?

Any recommendations for who I might consider to perform the rehab? My local jeweler has one person who is semi-local, but I don't know anything about him except the jeweler's recommendation.

Ideally, if I'm going to send it off for rehab, I'd like whoever does it to then send directly to GIA or AGS for the cert, then for it to come back to me. Which brings about another question - is one better/preferred over the other (GIA & AGS) for old cuts? I see LAD & JbG use both but not sure if there are factors that would drive one diamond to GIA and another to AGS.

Thank you for any insight you might provide; much appreciated! :wavey:
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
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I'd use GIA since you won't be converting this to a modern round brilliant & old cuts aren't candidates for AGS's Light Performance Cut Grading:
https://www.americangemsociety.org/supported-shapes
So you'd be getting one of their more ordinary Diamond Quality Reports, at probably a higher cost than GIA charges. Plus for resale purposes (should you ever be interested in that), GIA has more widespread "name recognition," which seems unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.

Were you to have Adam of Old World Diamonds handle the recutting or a tweaking, he could then walk the stone to GIA's NYC lab; it's just around the corner from OWD. I'd at least do a phone consult with Adam to hear his thoughts and suggestions re your OEC.

Single Stone, in LA, also has handled this kind of project for some PSers.

Looking forward to seeing your ring project unfold :))
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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MollyMalone|1457217849|4000320 said:
I'd use GIA since you won't be converting this to a modern round brilliant & old cuts aren't candidates for AGS's Light Performance Cut Grading:
https://www.americangemsociety.org/supported-shapes
So you'd be getting one of their more ordinary Diamond Quality Reports, at probably a higher cost than GIA charges. Plus for resale purposes (should you ever be interested in that), GIA has more widespread "name recognition," which seems unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.

Were you to have Adam of Old World Diamonds handle the recutting or a tweaking, he could then walk the stone to GIA's NYC lab; it's just around the corner from OWD. I'd at least do a phone consult with Adam to hear his thoughts and suggestions re your OEC.

Single Stone, in LA, also has handled this kind of project for some PSers.

Looking forward to seeing your ring project unfold :))
Thank you MM! I will reach out to OWD next week for a chat. Why, then, would LAD &JbG have so many of their old cuts with AGS certs, do you suppose? I am hopeful one or both may pop in here also.
 

liaerfbv

Brilliant_Rock
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1,264
Erica told me last year GIA waiting period was crazy and AGS was faster to cert. I wouldn't rehab if you were going to bezel it. If you'd set it in prongs, I'd have it touched up just to be safe.
 

ericad

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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JoCoJenn|1457229126|4000374 said:
MollyMalone|1457217849|4000320 said:
I'd use GIA since you won't be converting this to a modern round brilliant & old cuts aren't candidates for AGS's Light Performance Cut Grading:
https://www.americangemsociety.org/supported-shapes
So you'd be getting one of their more ordinary Diamond Quality Reports, at probably a higher cost than GIA charges. Plus for resale purposes (should you ever be interested in that), GIA has more widespread "name recognition," which seems unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.

Were you to have Adam of Old World Diamonds handle the recutting or a tweaking, he could then walk the stone to GIA's NYC lab; it's just around the corner from OWD. I'd at least do a phone consult with Adam to hear his thoughts and suggestions re your OEC.

Single Stone, in LA, also has handled this kind of project for some PSers.

Looking forward to seeing your ring project unfold :))
Thank you MM! I will reach out to OWD next week for a chat. Why, then, would LAD &JbG have so many of their old cuts with AGS certs, do you suppose? I am hopeful one or both may pop in here also.
I prefer AGS for a few reasons. Primarily because they call them Old European (or Old Mine), while GIA calls them all sorts of nonsensical things - Round Brilliant, Circular Brilliant, Cushion Brilliant - I once had an OMC come back as a Cut Cornered Rectangular Brilliant, or something silly like that. GIA has very narrow parameters for calling a cut European Brilliant, which can become problematic with insurance replacements. 100% of my AGS stones have come back with the correct cut designation.

I also find AGS to be far more consistent with cape color grading - they always come back right about where I grade them against other certed stones, while GIA has been wildly off the mark and I've had to have many stones rechecked (and every time GIA altered the color grade, which made me question their attention to detail).

Lastly, I really like AGS's report presentation, and their customer service is fantastic.

As for rehab on the diamond, I only recommend this when there's considerable damage to a stone. My advice is to leave small nicks or abrasions untouched if they're not impacting the diamond's performance or durability, because this helps to authenticate the age of the stone. I'm seeing more "fake" old cuts hitting the market now - presently for fancy cuts (pears, marquise, etc.) because they're trending, incredibly rare, and sell at a premium over what moderns go for. So unscrupulous vendors are recutting modern stones and calling them old in order to charge more. Though we're not really seeing this happen with OEC's right now, it's just a matter of time, as rarity drives up the prices of antique stones. There's also the risk - though it's very rare, any time a diamond goes on the cutter's wheel, you have a risk of loss, and insurance companies don't cover recuts as far as I know.

Beautiful diamond!!!
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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ericad|1457240964|4000420 said:
I prefer AGS for a few reasons. Primarily because they call them Old European (or Old Mine), while GIA calls them all sorts of nonsensical things - Round Brilliant, Circular Brilliant, Cushion Brilliant - I once had an OMC come back as a Cut Cornered Rectangular Brilliant, or something silly like that. GIA has very narrow parameters for calling a cut European Brilliant, which can become problematic with insurance replacements. 100% of my AGS stones have come back with the correct cut designation.

I also find AGS to be far more consistent with cape color grading - they always come back right about where I grade them against other certed stones, while GIA has been wildly off the mark and I've had to have many stones rechecked (and every time GIA altered the color grade, which made me question their attention to detail).

Lastly, I really like AGS's report presentation, and their customer service is fantastic.

As for rehab on the diamond, I only recommend this when there's considerable damage to a stone. My advice is to leave small nicks or abrasions untouched if they're not impacting the diamond's performance or durability, because this helps to authenticate the age of the stone. I'm seeing more "fake" old cuts hitting the market now - presently for fancy cuts (pears, marquise, etc.) because they're trending, incredibly rare, and sell at a premium over what moderns go for. So unscrupulous vendors are recutting modern stones and calling them old in order to charge more. Though we're not really seeing this happen with OEC's right now, it's just a matter of time, as rarity drives up the prices of antique stones. There's also the risk - though it's very rare, any time a diamond goes on the cutter's wheel, you have a risk of loss, and insurance companies don't cover recuts as far as I know.

Beautiful diamond!!!
Thank you so much, Erica! Weighing the "risk vs reward" is definitely a concern I have with any rehab work. None of the nicks or flea bites are visible to my eyes without a loupe, and under normal viewing do not appear to impact its performance, so I would be hesitant to take the risk of rehab if it would not significantly improve the performance and/or grading for insurance purposes. One of my primary reasons for wanting to get the cert is to make sure - should I experience damage or a loss - that I would get a "like for like" replacement vs a "modified round something" in place of my early OEC.
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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liaerfbv|1457229782|4000379 said:
Erica told me last year GIA waiting period was crazy and AGS was faster to cert. I wouldn't rehab if you were going to bezel it. If you'd set it in prongs, I'd have it touched up just to be safe.
Thank you. I don't mind a wait (either way) as I am not in a huge hurry. And while I haven't pinned down any particular setting yet, I am about 95% sure it will be a bezel. I have just found that I prefer them for security as well as the fact I hate when my things catch in/on prongs. Drives me bonkers! :wacko:
 

LightBright

Brilliant_Rock
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This is really interesting.

OP, your stone is most certainly old. I believe your stone predates the Old European Cut. It's an Old Mine Cut, likely cut in the late 1800s. OMCs were cut by hand (unlike OECs which were mechanized), and cutters mostly followed the shape of the original octahedral diamond crystal closely to maximize weight. Because of this, the edges of the cut were often irregularly rounded or squared off (not a perfect circle). Your stone's perimeter looks pretty round to me. They are also deeper cuts with luxurious high-domed crowns (again following the depth of the original crystal). The girdle on your OMC is typical, ranging from extremely thin like a knife edge, to medium or larger thickness. So what you've got is an older cut, and a beautiful example of an OMC.

The knife edge parts of your girdle may make your stone vulnerable to chipping, so you should get some advice on setting with prongs. Setting in a bezel might change the light play and even color of the diamond (on OECs it can turn a diamond steely while also accentuating facet pattern). Before bezeling you could try wrapping the edges with tinfoil or even your fingers so you can see how it affects the character of your stone.

Personally I would leave this particular girdle alone as I didn't see any large chips or anything. I'm not sure a girdle such as yours can be cleaned up without messing with the look of the old cut girdle. You will want to ask how the cutter intends to finish it, and request photos of other OMCs they have done do you like the look of a cleaned up girdle. Adam of Old World Diamonds will be able to advise you (Ari of Single Stone in LA is also a good resource on stone rehab).

Good luck and please keep us posted!
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Thank you for your input LightBright as well as your compliments. I should have clarified that when appraised, it was noted to be an 'early OEC', so likely from somewhere between the OMC & OEC eras. I absolutely love it, flaws and all. It has so much personality in person, and is just so fun to see it take in the light and watch it dance like a bygone era's evening ball. :love:
 

the_mother_thing

Ideal_Rock
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Resonance.Of.Life|1457309399|4000758 said:
GIA posts the current wait times and it looks like March 15th is the return and graded by date on the website.
http://www.gia.edu/gem-lab-return-dates
Thank you ROL. That's helpful to know the turn around time seems pretty quick. I was thinking it might be 6 weeks or so, though I'm not in any huge hurry.
 
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