To consumers who need help in evaluating diamonds

[kenny]

Gypsy, I'll meet you later at the old girl's club, okay? Eggnogg is my treat. Kenny, you are welcome too , even though you ain't a broad.

Well, I may not be a broad but I was once promoted to "Honorary Lesbian" so I could attend a function for women who wear comfortable shoes, AND I can cat it up with the best of the girls.
I DO hope that eggnog is spiked!
All this holiday stuff can give a girl one powerful thirst.

 

[Jim Summa]

Hi Everybody,

Quoting Lula "These days vendors posting on PS are few and far between, and the dialogue among the remaining vendors is not always fair and unbalanced, shall we say".

This has become very true...and is a pity.

Happy Holidays people...we are finished!

 

[denverappraiser]

Jewelers mostly stay away. Appraisers mostly stay away. Even the advertisers mostly stay away. The few that remain are dancing on the edge. I have had posts deleted for even mentioning that professional appraisal services might be appropriate for someone. Many of my jeweler and appraiser friends think I’m crazy for being a participant here and it is not a coincidence that there are only 3 appraisers in the whole world who actually take the time to answer questions on anything like a regular basis. I can only think of a couple of dealers who post regularly, and that includes the advertisers. We don’t have a single bench jeweler who has stayed around and Jim Summa and Garry Holloway (one of the site's owners) are the only ‘B&M’ jewelers I can think of who post AT ALL. This is a definite change from the dynamic of 3 years ago. Is it an improvement? Maybe, but I don’t think so. Then again, I am NOT an unbiased observer about this. I find professional advice from people who are clearly identified and contactable to be desirable, even if anonymous strangers ARE free and even if the strangers turn out to be correct.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Jewelers mostly stay away. Appraisers mostly stay away. Even the advertisers mostly stay away. The few that remain are dancing on the edge. I have had posts deleted for even mentioning that professional appraisal services might be appropriate for someone. Many of my jeweler and appraiser friends think I’m crazy for being a participant here and it is not a coincidence that there are only 3 appraisers in the whole world who actually take the time to answer questions on anything like a regular basis. I can only think of a couple of dealers who post regularly, and that includes the advertisers. We don’t have a single bench jeweler who has stayed around and Jim Summa and Garry Holloway (one of the site's owners) are the only ‘B&M’ jewelers I can think of who post AT ALL. This is a definite change from the dynamic of 3 years ago. Is it an improvement? Maybe, but I don’t think so. Then again, I am NOT an unbiased observer about this. I find professional advice from people who are clearly identified and contactable to be desirable, even if anonymous strangers ARE free and even if the strangers turn out to be correct.

Neil, you are NOT crazy for being a participant here. Your responses, advice, and level headedness are appreciated.
I feel that if we didn't care so much we wouldn't bother. The ones that stick around care about our industry very much.

Happy New Year!

 

[kenny]

Jewelers mostly stay away. Appraisers mostly stay away. Even the advertisers mostly stay away. The few that remain are dancing on the edge. I have had posts deleted for even mentioning that professional appraisal services might be appropriate for someone. Many of my jeweler and appraiser friends think I’m crazy for being a participant here and it is not a coincidence that there are only 3 appraisers in the whole world who actually take the time to answer questions on anything like a regular basis. I can only think of a couple of dealers who post regularly, and that includes the advertisers. We don’t have a single bench jeweler who has stayed around and Jim Summa and Garry Holloway (one of the site's owners) are the only ‘B&M’ jewelers I can think of who post AT ALL. This is a definite change from the dynamic of 3 years ago. Is it an improvement? Maybe, but I don’t think so. Then again, I am NOT an unbiased observer about this. I find professional advice from people who are clearly identified and contactable to be desirable, even if anonymous strangers ARE free and even if the strangers turn out to be correct.

I see two possible reasons.

1. PS trade rules are too harsh.
2. Pros can't help but promote their business, or see no point if they can't.

I give a deep bow to pros who can post while respecting the rules. (I think in the long run they ARE promoting their business .)

 

[Rockdiamond]

TO borrow a phrase from show business- it's a VERY tough room Neil.
I've gotten hammered by certain participants- right here in this very thread- simply for expressing an idea. Plus, the idea I suggested is directly related to the subject at hand
Personally, and professionally, I don't mind- as I am deeply committed to open and clear information to be made available to consumers.
Many have warned me of the consequences.
I see it from a completely different perspective.
When a retail B&M jeweler can't compete with the internet, the shame is, it's generally due to a closed minded attitude.
I sold to retail jewelers for over 15 years- I don't blame them at all- any more than we blame a Zebra for getting eaten by a Lion.
In fact, we feel empathy.
But the jeweler is in a different position than that prey animal.
If they're open to change, they may be able to find ways to compete- and we can see that there are still some very successful B&M jewelry stores who've done just that.

I'll put you and David Atlas in the tiny group of forward thinking appraisers who've learned to find their way through this minefield.
I respect both of you tremendously.

If more retail jewelers - or bench people- had the foresight to find a way to do what you've done, PS would be a more informative place. But it is an uphill battle.

 

[denverappraiser]

I’m not sure zebras and lions is such a good example. Traditional jewelry stores and department stores still outsell the internet folks by many orders of magnitude. Actually, ‘big box’ stores like Walmart and Costco along with the specialty television channels are the rising players I would expect them to be most worried about adapting to. Those are the lions.

People generally PREFER to shop at a specialty store, nearly everyone visits at least one as part of their shopping experience, and most would even be willing to pay a bit extra for what the stores have to offer. That’s an enormous advantage and most still end up buying from one. The trick is in delivering that desired level of service. Internet dealers and TV folks have a one-to-many style of education and the retailers are mostly stuck on one-on-one presentations. ‘Jewel Hunter Jack’ can talk to a hundred thousand people while most sales people have to do it one at a time. This makes it much more satisfactory when it works but it’s much more labor intensive, it’s much more expensive to do, and it’s much more difficult to control the quality of the presentation. Stores get roundly criticized for not having sufficient inventory on hand while the Internet dealers can be very successful with none at all. It’s a double standard but discounters have always existed and there’s nothing new about retailers needing to face them as competition. Somehow the cream always seem to rise to the top, both on the street and online.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Fantastic point Neil- I was thinking very small.
For many local stores, you're totally on point, they need to focus on the big box stores.
But I still feel that a higher line single store, or a small chain, learning how to swim in this ocean increases the odds of survival.
If they can compete on the internet, they go for the broader reach... in either case, survival is by no means guaranteed.

But as it relates to this discussion: For that smaller, high line operation, I personally feel they are totally missing the boat if they don't explore the options online- and one of the best is PriceScope.
We're proud to be a sponsor, but we're living proof of the fact you don't have to be.


Kenny- clearly my post got you very angry- regardless. I think you're a tremendous asset to the forum. I think you really are interested in PS being better for all concerned
As such I ask you- isn't discussing things a good way to air ideas and hopefully increase trade participation?
Part of the problem is that if someone is very good at posting on a forum, and they have strong alliances with a chosen seller, a case could be made that it's likely to influence the advice they give.

The same could be said of a prolific poster who does not like a seller, for reasons not related to a purchase made, or any direct business with that vendor.

Of course it's crucial to allow consumer participants to share their experience- both positive and negative
If there's a problem with any vendor, this is a great place for consumers to air it- and management has shown itself to be completely open to allowing the implicated vendor to participate, and demonstrate a willingness, and means of resolving that issue. Or not do so, and bear the consequences

Maybe, if someone is a prosumer, they can have their profile indicate who they've purchased from- or have a relationship with, and can therefore recommend to other consumers based on their valuable personal experience.

 

[Rockdiamond]

And happy holidays to everyone too! Especially Ella who has a monster job patrolling this lot of yahoos.

I am happy to move on now, anyways. I am leaving this thread in a good mood. I love when young men use the terms "broads", "girls" and "ladies" to refer to women during heated discussions. They are such quaint, old-timey terms. Remind me of my grandpa, bless his misogynistic little heart. It also brings back fond memories of my teens, when a politician patten me on the cheek and called me cute when I tried to express an opinion at a youth political conference! Ahhh so many fond fond memories. Thank you Twizz! That is the best Christmas gift I have received this year so far.

Gypsy, I'll meet you later at the old girl's club, okay? Eggnogg is my treat. Kenny, you are welcome too , even though you ain't a broad. ETA: And RD, I'd love it if you joined us too, we can use our ideal scopes to evaluate ornaments

Yes, and I'm buying!!
Thanks for the invite DD

 

[yssie]

Twizz - I actually agree with you: consumers are strictly enthusiasts - unless of course they cross over into the trade, in which case they're identified as such. And as a male in a female-dominated board, you have a unique view that will aid you in helping other RT newcomers (who are, as you observe, mostly young males looking for help with engagement purchases). I hope you stick around and keep posting just like you suggest - offering advice and opinions and always including the *why* so that the OP can follow along and make up his/her mind! And we aren't always correct, so we should be vigilant about fact-checking and be open to correction.


denverappraiser - Yes, the dynamic is different from three years ago. Three years from now it'll be different again! That's just the nature of the interwebz, and in three years people will undoubtedly look back nostalgically on "the good old days" of the present...

The participation of knowledgeable and committed appraisers like you is invaluable, and I wish there was more of it - and I wish we had more participation from tradespeople from other aspects of the industry. I do not think "just trust me, I'm in the trade" is a helpful purpose, nor do I think it's one that that should be furthered here on PS. Tradespeople have the advantage of insights a consumer simply isn't privy to, and consumers of the sort PS attracts are very much capable of understanding - and appreciating - the perspectives such insights permit.


RD - I don't suppose it's terribly wise on my part to disagree with you while you're making my ring, but...
1. Who is a prosumer? As far as I know PS only has two on file, one of whom we haven't seen around here in a very long time.
2. What would posting the vendors we've purchased from achieve? In threads where it's relevant PSers already *do* make clear if they're speaking from personal experience, from what I've seen, and in threads where it doesn't come up - where a newbie is looking for opinions on a pair of DBL diamonds, for instance, that newbie might well simply ignore any advice from people who don't have DBL on their BeenThereDoneThat list. Then there's the issue of discriminating between positive and negative experiences, which are very important and which I've no doubt it would be even less helpful to list in one's signature.

ETA: re. unbalanced advice - addressed, and I've no patience for parroting without both understanding and explanation so I have nothing to contribute on that topic.


Dreamer can I come to this event? I'll bring a camera and popcorn

 

[oldminer]

"Hey all you consumers who help in RT, I think you should try to remember that not everyone wants the same thing..."
A wonderful comment that gives the essence of my thought process for this thread. I wish I had thought of it myself. THANKS foir clarifying the real goal of the topic.

Every vendor and expert here on Pricescope paricipates to some extent because we see such great potential here to communicate directly to consumers. Consumers drastically influence the market and getting consumers more involved the workings of the diamond business makes for a much more positive future. Forward thinking is key to keeping much of this business alive and well.

 

[WinkHPD]

Hi Everybody,

Quoting Lula "These days vendors posting on PS are few and far between, and the dialogue among the remaining vendors is not always fair and unbalanced, shall we say".

This has become very true...and is a pity.

Happy Holidays people...we are finished!

Jim,

I hope your comment "we are finished" related only to your Christmas season, not to your posting here on Pricescope.

I have not been posting much lately because I have been extremely busy. I intend to do more this next year and hope to have a few other quality B&M jewelers like yourself around.

Wink

 

[Karl_K]

I find threads like this very counter productive.

That makes Pricescope great was the guiding principle that Leonid held close to heart.
It is a site for the consumers by the consumers.
The trade members are here to provide support and education, not to tell consumers what to do.
The admin/moderators are here to enforce the rules on everyone and to provide guidance to both consumers and trade on what is acceptable here.

As far as why more trade members don't post:
The number one reason I hear: "If I cant push my stuff I don't have the time"
That in my opinion is very short sighted and frankly they don't have a place here.
Others have got mad because they can not post voodoo smoke and mirrors disguised as education as a reason their diamonds are better without getting called on it.
PS is very much a show me kinds of place.


Having been both a consumer and trade on PS I can tell you it is a lot more fun as a consumer but by being careful one can do a lot of good as a trade member.

 

[oldminer]

Karl; This thread may not be "productive", but it a long way from being counter-productive. I see it this thread as my soft attempt at moderating the vast majority of voices which point virtually all newcomers here in very definite and somewhat limiting directions. This directing is not totally based on complete market knowledge, but based on the most commonly accepted set of norms we view as acceptable today. Twenty years ago, the accepted norms were different. I expect that twenty years from now, they will again be moderately different from today's norms. Nearly all the advice I see is quite good advice, but rarely do we see much voice given to personal taste and keeping an open mind. I don't see such advice as counter-productive. I really think it tends to re-inforce the factual parts of the business while letting consumers understand that not all decisions with diamonds have to be solely just solid facts. One might buy a luxury item because one likes it a great deal and that's all the reason you need to have. I assure you that some of the impulsive purchases I have made over the years have given me and the recipient, my wife, the most pleasure and least worry. When I buy what I consider a very costly, blind item, such as real estate, I do rely on outside expert advice and not just the word of the broker or the seller. We all draw the line at what is costly, what is important and what is above or below an implusive purchase threshold differently.

 

[Karl_K]

Dave A.

Your heart is in the right place but you came off wrong in the way you posted it.

The way I put it that you can use the tools and advise here to select the diamond that has a very high potential of being one you or your loved one loves.
But no one can truly know they love a diamond until the have worn it in their real world environment for several days.
This is true of a diamond bought online sight unseen and is also true of a diamond bought in person in a b&m.

 

[Jim Summa]

Hi Wink,
You are one of the pros I do miss!
The "we are finished!" comment was about the season. There has been many a time I thought better and dropped a post, most of the time because it has already been answered by someone else.

This morning I was watching a different thread and nearly posted "Don't shoot the messenger!" and thought better of it. I guess that happens too.

Neil mentioned the lack of B&M participation surprised me a little....I am guessing because its difficult when you first come across this site as a shop and see what is happening with customers/clients/consumers...and thinking I have made some of those same mistakes.

A story I have found interesting was put out by Eightstar diamond years ago when they were still in business in California. They sent me a 38 page story about Takanori Tamura, a Japanese Businessman that understood perfectly the first (that I know of) reflecter tool, the Firescope and how it aids in the understanding of light in a diamond. This helped Al Gilbertson with the ASET and I am betting Garry Holloway new of it when he developed the Idealscope.
How this relates to PS is I think only a consumer (Mr. Tamura in 1984) would ever attempt to make such a radical change in the way diamonds were viewed because any Pro would see the Firescope as impossable to promote in the diamond business because of what it reveals.
Getting late, got to go home!

 

[Lula]

Karl; This thread may not be "productive", but it a long way from being counter-productive. I see it this thread as my soft attempt at moderating the vast majority of voices which point virtually all newcomers here in very definite and somewhat limiting directions. This directing is not totally based on complete market knowledge, but based on the most commonly accepted set of norms we view as acceptable today. Twenty years ago, the accepted norms were different. I expect that twenty years from now, they will again be moderately different from today's norms. Nearly all the advice I see is quite good advice, but rarely do we see much voice given to personal taste and keeping an open mind. I don't see such advice as counter-productive. I really think it tends to re-inforce the factual parts of the business while letting consumers understand that not all decisions with diamonds have to be solely just solid facts. One might buy a luxury item because one likes it a great deal and that's all the reason you need to have. I assure you that some of the impulsive purchases I have made over the years have given me and the recipient, my wife, the most pleasure and least worry. When I buy what I consider a very costly, blind item, such as real estate, I do rely on outside expert advice and not just the word of the broker or the seller. We all draw the line at what is costly, what is important and what is above or below an implusive purchase threshold differently.

I disagree. If I had a nickel for every time a local jeweler tried to get me to make a large purchase based on my emotions, well, I'd be able to afford that vacation home in the mountains (speaking of real estate). Mr. Atlas, for the vast majority of consumers, diamonds are a luxury item, a costly luxury item, and they are not, and should not be, purchased on impulse. For many years I wore a blue sapphire as my engagement/wedding set. I chose it because I loved the way it looked in the jewelry store. I bought it on impulse, without doing any research on sapphires. But I never really liked the way it looked in low light. I started to do research on sapphires. When I learned just a little about sapphires, I was dismayed to learn how much my husband and I overpaid for my sapphire, and I also discovered that a lot of things my jeweler told me about my sapphire were wrong, unsubstantiated, and may have been outright lies. And it made me feel swindled. It didn't make me feel good about the purchase of my sapphire, a luxury item for my husband and me at the time. I never want to be in that position again. Education is power for any major purchase, especially jewelry, where there is no guarantee that the person behind the counter has any formal training in gems or metals.

What turns me off about this thread is that you could have made your point within individual threads if you felt that a poster's preferences were not being considered or if you felt consumers were giving incorrect information to posters. I believe vendors are still allowed to correct any misinformation being given to an OP in a specific thread or threads. Starting a separate thread on this topic that is not addressing any specific instance of misinformation looks to me like an effort to undermine the consumers who help posters on RT. And your message: "it's okay to buy with your eyes and emotions instead of using logic and facts" is very different from the message that's been given to consumers for as long as I've been here, which is, "Educate your eyes so you know what you prefer, don't buy on impulse, and buy from a business that has a good return policy." If a poster wants to buy something other than an AGS 0 diamond -- after they've educated themselves about cut quality -- because they've found a diamond that is outside the AGS 0 range that is the size-color-clarity-price that works for them, and they love it when they receive it and observe it under all lighting conditions, then great. They've done their due diligence and made an educated purchase. I will never advise someone to buy a diamond on impulse. Or any gemstone jewelry, for that matter, unless it's inexpensive costume jewelry. There are too many uneducated sellers out there, and a fair amount of dishonest ones, too, for me to believe that they have my best interests as a consumer in mind.

Of course there is room for personal taste, but my personal taste has certainly evolved now that I have gained a bit more education about gems. I'm not as susceptible to the "oooh, it's so pretty" sales pitch that is most local jewelers' stock and trade.

Perhaps AGS 0 diamonds will not be popular 20 years from now, but that doesn't mean we will see a resurgence in popularity for the poorly-cut, flat-top diamonds of the 1970s and 1980s that many of my local jewelery stores still carry. But maybe I'm wrong. After all, leg warmers made a comeback...

 

[TristanC]

Hello to all the tradespeople! Merry Christmas to you all and Happy New Years to come.

And a huge Ditto to all the prosumers and the tireless posters on PS. Y'all know you're appreciated.

After reading all the posts in a marathon session: I really wished that tradespeople did post far more often. And when they do, I wish they posted with their consumer hats on top of their heads, which hold all that wonderful rich industry knowledge.

Sometimes, that doesn't come across when I read a post from a 'trade' member.

Having a forum without participating prosumers or 'trade' would make it less rich, so that would be sad.

As to the typical responses that are given by the prosumers? Well, if you think its hard to stand gamely in the face of dissenting opinions, try asking for advice on whether as a guy you should pursue the path of purchasing a Small (by US standards) Fancy coloured diamond E-ring without direct input on shape, colour, size and ring style.

The prosumers will put you through the washer on the harshest cycle of them all. In the end? If you know what you want, you'll still get there. Mostly intact. With plenty of additional doubts you didn't have before you started. But answering those questions/doubts thrown at you, you'll have covered areas you never thought of and that is a Helpful process. And necessary.

Many times, I think that the general advice here leads to better decisions. Of course no forum is perfect. And yes, overwhelmingly there is a direction towards what oldminer said are current trends (paraphrasing), but trending correctly typically leads to the majority of satisfied people.

The ones that differ, will still differ.

Best of the season to one and all!

 

[oldminer]

Some may appreciate what my thoughts were when I started this thread. Obviously, some folks disagree to one extent or another. We all rarely agree on everything so this is not unsual, but must be the expected outcome when a thread attracts enough attention to get this long. People often have a way of mis-reading an intended meaning or find themselves bending the statments into advice that was not actually given. Again, this is normal human interaction when a message is disected and criticized element by element.

In diamond grading and advisory services I do use all the modern tools to analyze diamonds, but I also advise consumers to make final choices partially based on their personal taste. I think this is the diplomatic way to proceed. I never just advise people to be impulsive buyers of jewelry or gems.

One thing I dislike is entering a thread toward the end where many others have already done their best for the person asking the question and saying that I disagree with the advice given. It can needlessly create resentment on the part of those who I don't agree with and hold them out for what they might consdier criticism or ridicule. Putting my own feelings into a spearate thread was a more gentle way of offering my own approach to the problem of diamond selection without naming names or commenting on what others specifically have advised. I tend to agree with the vast majority in most cases, but don't want to be confrontational on Pricescope because I feel that is especially unproductive and unwelcomed.

The best agenda on Pricescope is one to inform and educate. At the same time , consumers and the trade gets informed and educated. Whle few trade members visibly participate, I am certain many trade members read and learn a great deal in the background about the new reality of retail selling of diamonds. Pricescope is vastly more influential than many might believe.

 

[yssie]

Some may appreciate what my thoughts were when I started this thread. Obviously, some folks disagree to one extent or another. We all rarely agree on everything so this is not unsual, but must be the expected outcome when a thread attracts enough attention to get this long. People often have a way of mis-reading an intended meaning or find themselves bending the statments into advice that was not actually given. Again, this is normal human interaction when a message is disected and criticized element by element.

In diamond grading and advisory services I do use all the modern tools to analyze diamonds, but I also advise consumers to make final choices partially based on their personal taste. I think this is the diplomatic way to proceed. I never just advise people to be impulsive buyers of jewelry or gems.

One thing I dislike is entering a thread toward the end where many others have already done their best for the person asking the question and saying that I disagree with the advice given. It can needlessly create resentment on the part of those who I don't agree with and hold them out for what they might consdier criticism or ridicule. Putting my own feelings into a spearate thread was a more gentle way of offering my own approach to the problem of diamond selection without naming names or commenting on what others specifically have advised. I tend to agree with the vast majority in most cases, but don't want to be confrontational on Pricescope because I feel that is especially unproductive and unwelcomed.

The best agenda on Pricescope is one to inform and educate. At the same time , consumers and the trade gets informed and educated. Whle few trade members visibly participate, I am certain many trade members read and learn a great deal in the background about the new reality of retail selling of diamonds. Pricescope is vastly more influential than many might believe.

David I hope you'll consider jumping in anyway. We consumers are open to correction - Karl corrected me just the other day, in fact, and that thread is richer for it!

With a thread like this it's easy to start jumping at shadows. A disagreement in a certain thread/with certain advice/type of advice A) contains the "damage", so to speak, and B) makes clearer what is and isn't good, solid information worthy of dissemination, which we'll all benefit from.

Well, my thinking, anyway.

 

[Karl_K]

Trade members can post corrections or different opinions without creating resentment if it is done properly.
What I found works well:
a: never say the words your wrong unless you know the poster well, honestly it is best avoided.
b: explain your reasoning in detail, I say so is never a valid answer.
c: check back to see if there is need for further explanation.
d: Don't argue, if someone says hey I disagree with you, be mature enough not to take it personally and let the person being helped decide who to listen to.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Great advice Karl!
I (again) want to commend David- as I see his post as very important, and nicely worded- especially considering his work on the AGA Cut Class Grader.

Lula- you made an interesting statement- and I think it's relevant to the discussion

Perhaps AGS 0 diamonds will not be popular 20 years from now, but that doesn't mean we will see a resurgence in popularity for the poorly-cut, flat-top diamonds of the 1970s and 1980s that many of my local jewelery stores still carry. But maybe I'm wrong. After all, leg warmers made a comeback...

I was training to be a diamond grader at Harry Winston in the late '70's and had a lot of involvement in mass merchandising of diamonds throughout the '80's.
Here's my take:
1) the best cut stones of that era were "Russian Make"
Winston used to cut incredibly fine makes in NYC, but on the broader market, if you wanted the finest cut, it was Russian made.
In general these stones are larger tabled than the current crop of AGS Ideal style stones- but they were by no means "flat top
Personally, I think that the finest goods of that era will compare favorably with the finest cut goods of today, if we don't use reflector technology- that is to say, have experts evaluate visually. Or consumers.
Generally the poorer cuts of that era were too deep.

2) In terms of what people are seeing today: If we're discussing the typical mall store, I'm with you 100%.
It's extremely difficult to maintain strict quality throughout a large chain store operation. Plus, pretty much any of our regulars has forgotten more abut diamonds than the average mall store employee will ever learn.
But if we're talking about the (very few) privately owned jewelers that carry diamonds, then I believe we'd find a far higher level of quality.
Of course stores that actually have a selection of one carat diamonds ( much less 2ct) are VERY few and far between- so in general, we do agree.

 

[ruby59]

JMO, of course. I have been an avid reader of Pricescope for years, who recently started posting. I will not even pretend to understand what goes on behind the scenes in moderating this board, but can only comment on what I see before me. And I am sorry to say that the heart and soul of PS is not the same as it once was. There used to be some great discussions by the tradespeople, prosumers, and every day folk. Sure there were arguements, but that is what happens when people are passionate about what they do.

As far as the concern that some were promoting their businesses, blatant is one thing, but how can you expect someone who is an expert in their field not to bring that knowledge into the discussion without being "guilty" of self promotion? If tradespeople are forced to walk on eggshells and scrutinize every word they post, of course they are going to stay away. The same with those on here who give advice. People like Yesse, Stone Cold, and Dreamer have spent countless hours on here helping people realize their dreams. But they do it within the parameters of what that person is looking for. In all my years here, I have never seen anyone steer someone into buying an inferior or overpriced product. And I always see the same comment at the end of their posts that potential buyers need to see it in person to make the final decision.

What I loved about this website was the knowledge and passion passed on to those who visited here. They would then in turn help the next ones looking for assistance. We used to have people who stayed throughout the whole process and then come back and post pictures of their new treasure. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case anymore. New posters barely get answered anymore and just disappear. And that will only get worst if those who put their heart and sole into helping them are further alienated.

 

[Lula]

Great advice Karl!
I (again) want to commend David- as I see his post as very important, and nicely worded- especially considering his work on the AGA Cut Class Grader.

Lula- you made an interesting statement- and I think it's relevant to the discussion

Perhaps AGS 0 diamonds will not be popular 20 years from now, but that doesn't mean we will see a resurgence in popularity for the poorly-cut, flat-top diamonds of the 1970s and 1980s that many of my local jewelery stores still carry. But maybe I'm wrong. After all, leg warmers made a comeback...

I was training to be a diamond grader at Harry Winston in the late '70's and had a lot of involvement in mass merchandising of diamonds throughout the '80's.
Here's my take:
1) the best cut stones of that era were "Russian Make"
Winston used to cut incredibly fine makes in NYC, but on the broader market, if you wanted the finest cut, it was Russian made.
In general these stones are larger tabled than the current crop of AGS Ideal style stones- but they were by no means "flat top
Personally, I think that the finest goods of that era will compare favorably with the finest cut goods of today, if we don't use reflector technology- that is to say, have experts evaluate visually. Or consumers.
Generally the poorer cuts of that era were too deep.

2) In terms of what people are seeing today: If we're discussing the typical mall store, I'm with you 100%.
It's extremely difficult to maintain strict quality throughout a large chain store operation. Plus, pretty much any of our regulars has forgotten more abut diamonds than the average mall store employee will ever learn.
But if we're talking about the (very few) privately owned jewelers that carry diamonds, then I believe we'd find a far higher level of quality.
Of course stores that actually have a selection of one carat diamonds ( much less 2ct) are VERY few and far between- so in general, we do agree.

I agree with most of what you've said here, David. You make an excellent point -- the more exclusive stores are able to carry a wider selection of well-cut diamonds than the average small-town or small-city jeweler. It's really difficult to compare the two. It's my understanding that many of the mom-and-pop jewelers are at the mercy of whatever stock their wholesaler ships to them (on margin?), with the stores that make more sales being rewarded with better goods. This is what I was told by a friend of mine who works for a small jeweler here in the Midwest. So I have no doubt that the diamonds you were selling in the 1970s and '80s, even though they were not AGS 0 or H&A -- today's buzzwords -- do indeed hold up to today's crop of well-cut stones. Likewise, it is clear that some genuine antique stones (not the repros) were more skillfully cut than others. What I see locally is a mishmash of steep-deep diamonds and low crown, thin girdle, large table stones (no, not well-cut 60-60s, which I know, from reading PS, exist). Very few GIA stones; mostly EGL and in-house graded diamonds that come with those ridiculous little driver's license-size plastic cards, by unknown "labs." Oh, and the latest thing is the "Your-store-name 81" cuts, produced by a cutting operation in Israel that seems to supply every small jewelry store in the U.S. with these extra-facet diamonds that produce a lot of pin flash. If you're ever in the Midwest, I'll be glad to show you the little shop of horrors that is our retail jewelry market. Small, locally owned jewelers, along with mall stores, is where most people buy jewelry. This is why alarm bells go off for me when we head down the "trust your eyes" road. Trusting your eyes in my town will get you an over-priced, poorly-cut diamond that does not come with a reputable grading report, but does come with an inflated (store-written) appraisal.

I really don't want to be a jerk -- I respect you and Dave Atlas for your experience and expertise -- but I often wonder if your eyes have been spoiled, for lack of a better word, by all the wonderful and amazing diamonds and jewelry you see on a daily basis. Here in the heartland, it's not such a pretty picture.

 

[Lula]

Some may appreciate what my thoughts were when I started this thread. Obviously, some folks disagree to one extent or another. We all rarely agree on everything so this is not unsual, but must be the expected outcome when a thread attracts enough attention to get this long. People often have a way of mis-reading an intended meaning or find themselves bending the statments into advice that was not actually given. Again, this is normal human interaction when a message is disected and criticized element by element.

In diamond grading and advisory services I do use all the modern tools to analyze diamonds, but I also advise consumers to make final choices partially based on their personal taste. I think this is the diplomatic way to proceed. I never just advise people to be impulsive buyers of jewelry or gems.

One thing I dislike is entering a thread toward the end where many others have already done their best for the person asking the question and saying that I disagree with the advice given. It can needlessly create resentment on the part of those who I don't agree with and hold them out for what they might consdier criticism or ridicule. Putting my own feelings into a spearate thread was a more gentle way of offering my own approach to the problem of diamond selection without naming names or commenting on what others specifically have advised. I tend to agree with the vast majority in most cases, but don't want to be confrontational on Pricescope because I feel that is especially unproductive and unwelcomed.

The best agenda on Pricescope is one to inform and educate. At the same time , consumers and the trade gets informed and educated. Whle few trade members visibly participate, I am certain many trade members read and learn a great deal in the background about the new reality of retail selling of diamonds. Pricescope is vastly more influential than many might believe.

David I hope you'll consider jumping in anyway. We consumers are open to correction - Karl corrected me just the other day, in fact, and that thread is richer for it!

With a thread like this it's easy to start jumping at shadows. A disagreement in a certain thread/with certain advice/type of advice A) contains the "damage", so to speak, and B) makes clearer what is and isn't good, solid information worthy of dissemination, which we'll all benefit from.

Well, my thinking, anyway.

I agree with yssie. I think vendor comments within threads are helpful to newbies, and are also the way that long-time consumer posters learn. I don't post much in RT anymore, but I used to post here regularly, and I learned a lot from vendors' responses to my posts, whether it be a comment I made to another poster or a question I had about diamond cut. Do consumers and vendors agree on every point? Certainly not in my experience on RT! But there is value in sharing differing viewpoints. And for the record, Dave (Atlas), I've read posts that you've made in consumer threads, and you are invariably polite. David (RD), your posting style can be a bit in-your-face, and offensive to some, but your posts and this article by John Pollard https://www.pricescope.com/journal/laboratory_cut_grades_what_report_doesn’t_show are how I learned to recognize a well-cut 60-60. So even though it may not always be apparent, consumers do listen and learn from the experts here. Which reminds me, I still believe the topic of this post would have been better presented as an educational piece, rather than a stand-alone vendor post. That's just my opinion. But I do enjoy reading the more detailed articles submitted by members of the trade and have used them to answer many questions I've had about diamond cleaning, cut parameters, p3 angles -- you name it. Those articles are a wonderful resource that I hope more newbies discover.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Incredibly valuable dialog Lula!
If it's OK, I'd like to clear up a slight misunderstanding of how local jewelry stores obtain diamonds.

I was referring to privately owned, independent jewelry stores as a broad grouping.
If we're considering any major chain- such as Zales, Kay's etc- the local branches of these large chains generally have zero say into what the home office sends in terms of picking individual items.
If a store has sold a lot of 1ct solitaires for $2995, I assume that they'll be replaced- but not by having that given store manager pick them out.
Compare this with a privately owned local jeweler.
If they need to buy diamonds, they're going to call the vendors they've been dealing with - likely for many years.
"Hey Shmulie Diamond Dealer- what have you got in $2000 one carat stones?"
"Hi Local Joe Jeweler- I've got some gorgeous M/I1 stones for you"
Maybe the dealer will ship them to the store- but it's also possible that the dealer travels the territory- or has a salesperson on the road.
When faced with the diamonds, local Joe has to be sharp enough to buy the right ones- or he'll be running an out of business sale

You referred to "on margin"- but I think you meant "on memo"
That's a scenario where a diamond dealer ships merchandise to a jeweler on approval- or to supplement the store's inventory for a sale, or what have you.
If the jeweler is taking the stones on memo, he's got far less ability to be selective, or negotiate the best price/terms.
But if the store is one of the few remaining that actually buy diamonds in advance of selling them- and has a good payment record within the industry?
They can be SUPER selective- and likely they will.


The Midwest has been really hit hard due to closing of a lot of manufacturing plants- among many other things- but Ohio and Michigan for example, were very rich states for a traveling jewelry salesman back in the '70's '80's and even the '90's


The largest independent jeweler in America ( possibly the world) is in Omaha Nebraska, of all places!

This brings up a great point- maybe more local places being recommended by consumers here would encourage more participation from trade members.
If someone came into a store, and let the owner know they found the place on PS, what better calling card could we have for the forum?


ETA- thanks for the compliment Lula...if it was one

 

[Lula]

Incredibly valuable dialog Lula!
If it's OK, I'd like to clear up a slight misunderstanding of how local jewelry stores obtain diamonds.

I was referring to privately owned, independent jewelry stores as a broad grouping.
If we're considering any major chain- such as Zales, Kay's etc- the local stores generally have zero say into what the home office sends in terms of picking individual items.
If a store has sold a lot of 1ct solitaires for $2995, I assume that they'll be replaced- but not by having that given store manager pick them out.
Compare this with a privately owned local jeweler.
If they need to buy diamonds, they're going to call the vendors they've been dealing with - likely for many years.
"Hey Shmulie Diamond Dealer- what have you got in $2000 one carat stones?"
"Hi Local Joe Jeweler- I've got some gorgeous M/I1 stones for you"
Maybe the dealer will ship them to the store- but it's also possible that the dealer travels the territory- or has a salesperson on the road.
When faced with the diamonds, local Joe has to be sharp enough to buy the right ones- or he'll be running an out of business sale Thanks for clarifying this. I think this is valuable information to share, because this is not knowledge that is commonplace, and knowing how much "power" your salesperson has in the diamond marketplace is valuable information for the diamond-buying consumer. I think we've seen inklings of this in threads where an OP is looking for help in replacing a lost or stolen or damaged diamond and is dealing with their insurance company or a local jewelry store, and having difficulty replacing their stone with one of "like" quality. The store my friend worked for actually did work with a sales rep who would travel to their store .

You referred to "on margin"- but I think you meant "on memo" Yes, you're right; I meant on memo. Getting my stock trades and diamond trades mixed up
That's a scenario where a diamond dealer ships merchandise to a jeweler on approval- or to supplement the store's inventory for a sale, or what have you.
If the jeweler is taking the stones on memo, he's got far less ability to be selective, or negotiate the best price/terms.
But if the store is one of the few remaining that actually buy diamonds in advance of selling them- and has a good payment record within the industry?
They can be SUPER selective- and likely they will. Yes, the store where my friend worked had some recent financial difficulty -- nearly went out of business -- and was no longer in the position to buy merchandise outright. They were buying on memo and had very little control over what was supplied to them. Again, these are nuances of the diamond business that have a direct impact on the quality of merchandise available at Store A versus Store B. There are several stores in my area who now carry Hearts on Fire brand diamonds. A consumer shopping on price only is not going to understand why an HOF stone is 5x the price of the M I1 down the street. And it's not likely the vendor of the M I1 will help the consumer understand the reasons for the huge difference in price.


The Midwest has been really hit hard due to closing of a lot of manufacturing plants- among many other things- but Ohio and Michigan for example, were very rich states for a traveling jewelry salesman back in the '70's '80's and even the '90's


The largest independent jeweler in America ( possibly the world) is in Omaha Nebraska, of all places! Yes, home of Warren Buffet and Berkshire Hathaway headquarters, I believe.

This brings up a great point- maybe more local places being recommended by consumers here would encourage more participation from trade members.
If someone came into a store, and let the owner know they found the place on PS, what better calling card could we have for the forum? I did recommend a local jeweler here once, and I told the owner that I had recommended him on PS. However, I later found out that this jeweler is a big money supporter of our current nut-job governor, so I asked the mods to remove the thread. I don't want any of my jewelry dollars going into that guy's pocket, even indirectly. Micky Roof, in Ithaca NY, is an another small jeweler/designer who has been recommended on PS. I know there are others.


ETA- thanks for the compliment Lula...if it was one Yes, indeed it was a compliment. And you are very welcome!