To buy or not to buy???

[KLEDO]

Hello all... My boyfriend and I have been looking at diamonds on and off for some time now, but of recent, it has been more on

. We found a stone that I couldn''t take off, but have some qualms about the color and fluorescence. I''d really appreciate those more qualified than we are taking a look at the specs and letting us know what you think:

AGS Certification
Shape Round Brilliant
Measurements 7.87-7.93 x 4.94 mm
Cut AGS Ideal 0
Color AGS 3.0 (J)
Clarity AGS 4 VS2
Carat weight 1.857

Fluorescence: Very strong blue

We had always said that we wanted D,E,F,G and would stick to VS1,VS2 or SI1 on clarity on a smaller stone, but this ring is truly stunning!! Some questions that we have are how much would the fluorescence affect/improve the appearance of the color, what would be a fair price and would you purchase such a stone??? Your expertise is apreciated....

 

[LesleyH]

Hi Kledo:

Welcome to the forum!

Is it possible to post more stats on the diamond? If it is an AGS000, the J color should be no problem. In fact, "J" color ideal cut diamonds are an excellent price point. As far as the very strong blue fluorescence goes, it should not affect the diamond's brilliance. We have sold a number of ideal and A Cut Above diamonds that are AGS000 with blue fluorescence, and there has been no notieable effect.

Please let us know what you decide.

LesleyH
www.whiteflash.com

 

[obsessive]

I personally did not want to go below a G color, , , but thats me. my understanding is blue fluorescence actually helps the face up color to look more white in stones in the I J range.
It should be significantly cheaper in a J color with strong fluorescense.
check out the price stats on this website, they were very helpful to us when we purchased

 

[Giangi]

J/VS 2 is a nice combo, especially with strong fluorescence and a beautiful cut. Now, if the stone doesn't look oliy in bright sunlight, then it's great and will look considerably whiter than a non fluorescent J. I suspect that when viewed in face up position, considering the ideal cut and the v.str fluor, this diamond will be similar to a H stone.

Could you tell us more about the cut? Table? Crown? Pavilion? Girdle?

 

[KLEDO]

Ok here goes:

Table= 54%
Crown= 35.7
Pavillion= 41.1
Culet= very small

I don't have labels with the report, just the vaules that lie around the diamond in the report. Thus, I may be completely wrong with the aforementioned values. Here are all the numbers (I feel really stupid) around the picture moving clockwise: 54%, 35.7, 41.1, 62.5%, Very small, 43.4%, 0.7 to 1.5%, 16.4%.... We believe that the jeweler is quite reputable, now we'd just like to know if our concerns about color are warranted.
Not to sound cheesy, but the stone ROCKS!!!! It is clean and beautiful to the naked eye, under the 10x and under the scope as well. I literally walked around the store holding the diamond under counters, behind stuff and in the dark, compeletely enamoured with it! The jeweler gave us a price, but I'd like to see what you all think. Again, I trust the jeweler, but just want to be certain about such a large and important purchase. Again, thanks for all of your help and expertise.

Kristen

 

[fire&ice]

Have you plugged your numbers in the cut advisor? That tool doesn't rate the cut as being very good. Sorry. I belive it comes out to be around 4.5 HCA.

You can plug the number in yourself at the "cutadvisor" at the top of the page.

 

[Fancy]

I believe that the fluorescence will actually make your J color appear much whiter... so the fluorescence only make the stone look better. And the MOST imporant thing about the stone is how it looks to you ... and you obviously love it!

I think if this stone really ROCKS you, then go for it! As long as you are getting a fair price of course. I have a pear, and the "numbers" say the stone is not the "greatest" cut ... well, all I can say it, I am stopped WHEREVER I go ... and I adore it!

 

[KLEDO]

OK, so I did the cut advisor thing. My next question is what exactly that means and how does that reflect on the AGS 0 thing? I was hesitant before, but now I'm confused

And again, if we were to purchase this stone, what would you suggest that we offer? The cut advisor said that it was in the good range, and ok if we were interested in cost/price. So what cost/price would be fair?

 

[robbe]

hi, i would not recommend 'very strong' fluor.
this stone is most probably going to look bad (oily indeed, mr giangi) in the sunlight, but it is going to look great in nightclubs!
good luck, robbe

 

[TheDiamondangel]

I would actually love to see that stone. J is my favorite color for diamonds, and with the VSF it should look really cool (if it doesn't look oily or milky).

You know what, if the price is right don't get hung up on the fact that it is a J or has very strong fluorescence. The most important fact is that you find the stone simply irresistable. There will always be another stone that is better cut, or has better color, whatever. If the stone simply calls to you, you compare all others to it, and you can't get the stone out of your dreams, it's THE one for you. Enjoy it.

 

[Got Rocks?]

Hi! I have a 2.08 J colored medium blue fl. ideal cut AGS000 H&A stone from www.Goodoldgold.com and I absolutely adore it.

The J is such a non-issue. My sister has a GIA graded H color from Blue Nile, but in her opinion, my J is whiter than her H (mine has med. blue fl.)

You can see my stone at goodoldgold's web site, hit educational diamonds, over 1.50 carat section, then 2.081 J SI-2 (and mine is totally eyeclean). When you look at my stone, it may give you some indication for comparison. For me, the SI-2 turned out to be a non-issue also. No one can see a thing in my stone except arrows shooting laser beams.

My J ROCKS too..... Good luck. Sincerely, Denise

By the way...does your jeweler have a trade-up policy? With Good old gold, I knew if there was anything I didn't like, I could return it or trade up, and that made me feel better. Good old gold doesn't have a minimum on the trade, either, I think that's correct. You can do a lot of comparing by looking at their current for sale section and 'educational diamonds' which means already sold.

 

[KLEDO]

It truly is pretty and doesn't look milky at all. We're going to another palce tonite, so I may have some more questions... A huge thanks to everyone, you've all been so helpful!!!

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/9/2003 11:42:31 PM robbe wrote:

hi, i would not recommend 'very strong' fluor.
this stone is most probably going to look bad (oily indeed, mr giangi) in the sunlight, but it is going to look great in nightclubs!
good luck, robbe----------------

This is absolutely untrue. I only buy stones with bl. fluor. I have viewed many & the oily effect is rare in the medium to strong blue fluor stones. In fact, the effect will counter act much of the yellow body hue in a J stone face up.

That said, in the rare instance that the stone is "overblue" make sure you examine in sunlight.

 

[aljdewey]

Hi, Kledo:




The reason it's scoring as a 4.5 on the HCA is between the stone is a bit deep (62.5%) and the crown angle is steep (35.7).




What this means: The stone is likely to visually appear smaller than its weight.




That doesn't mean the stone isn't beautiful.....and if you are pleased with it and it's reasonably priced, great.




You may want to view a few stones that are well-cut before settling on this one, though. If you think this one is good, you'd be blown away by a well-cut stone!

 

[Fancy]

The cut advisor said that it was in the good range, and ok if we were interested in cost/price. So what cost/price would be fair?

My stone is also "just a good cut" .. but you know what ... it Rocks my world too ... and everyone that sees it says it's amazing. Look up similar stones here on the pricescope search and see what similar stones are going for. Then you can get and idea of a price... but keep in mind, internet sellers usually sell at a lower cost than local jewelry stores due to lack of overhead costs (corect me if I am wrong, experts).

 

[magna2]

KLEDO,

You have had the benefit of personally seeing the diamond; and if it is indeed "truly pretty" and the price is right, I don't see why it would not be worth buying. Yes, the HCA score is not great but unless you are a purist, please do not concern yourself with HCA scores unless that upon viewing the diamonds with your own set of eyes, you see that the diamond is dull (no brilliance, etc.) or dead. The HCA is a great tool to weed out diamonds that potentially are not great in performance but one should utilize it as a tool to increase the probability of finding a great performer. An excellent HCA score does not guarantee an excellent performer and can be said of the opposite. That is a poor performer does not guarantee a poor performer.

 

[KLEDO]

Thanks again guys... you've all been truly helpful!!! We are going to another reputable jeweler tonight, so I may just be asking a whole new set of questions tomorrow. This site is really a great resource!!

 

[aljdewey]

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On 10/10/2003 2:38:56 PM magna2 wrote:





KLEDO,

You have had the benefit of personally seeing the diamond; and if it is indeed 'truly pretty' and the price is right, I don't see why it would not be worth buying. Yes, the HCA score is not great but unless you are a purist, please do not concern yourself with HCA scores unless that upon viewing the diamonds with your own set of eyes, you see that the diamond is dull (no brilliance, etc.) or dead

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Magna, I'd respectfully point out, though, that's part of the problem when one is first learning. With no basis of comparison, nearly every diamond looks beautiful because it's a diamond. An uneducated customer hasn't viewed enough diamonds to spot the "ring of death", or to see what a really well-cut stone looks like.

I agree with you that the numbers aren't everything.....completely. BUT, I think that Kledo should SEE with his own eyes what a well-cut diamond looks like and how that compares to a "good" cut diamond. The goal should be to learn prior to purchase to prevent regret post-purchase, and I think that's what Kledo's trying to do.

Not everyone wants to spend the money to get a super-duper-louper, so it's great that there are diamonds of all varieties out there to please all types of people. If he chooses the "good" cut after viewing well-cuts, then he's making a conscious educated choice, and that's always better.

 

[KLEDO]

Like I said, we've looked at stones on and off for some time now. We've looked at everything from a 1.5c IF D (we went

) to a 1.0c H SI-1, and made the decision to find a 1.2-1.5 D,E,F & maybe G, VS1 to SI-1 on a budget of anywhere between $7-9000. The reason that I am on here is that I never thought (having looked at soooooo many stones in the chain jewelery stores in the mall over the years, as well as local jewelers)that a J would/could look like that. To be quite frank, the J-K rings that I have seen looked absolutely horrible, and I didn't know that a J could look just as spectacular as the F-G next to it. Again, that was my/our ignorance. Further, we thought that before acting on impulse and buying the stone, we should find out any good and bad things about this particular stone from people who obvioulsy know so much more than we do. Bottom line (all gooey stuff aside), this ring is an investment and we want to make a sound purchase.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/10/2003 6:01:40 PM KLEDO wrote:

. ----------------

NOt having seen this J stone, I can be certain. But, from everything you say, it's the blue fluor at work to make this stone face up white.

While the cut is not great, it's not bad. Again, I may be off here; but, you may be reacting to the blue fluor. Stones w/ strong blue have a certain "glow".

Also, are you reacting to the larger size? Perhaps you like the fact that it appears so "white" & is more sizable. If the answer is yes, then consider a stone w/ med/strong blue.

I would look at more stones. If this one still speaks to you, buy it. The size alone is impressive. Good luck.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 10/10/2003 6:01:40 PM KLEDO wrote:

Like I said, we've looked at stones on and off for some time now. ......(having looked at soooooo many stones in the chain jewelery stores in the mall over the years, as well as local jewelers)that a J would/could look like that. To be quite frank, the J-K rings that I have seen looked absolutely horrible, and I didn't know that a J could look just as spectacular as the F-G next to it.

Bottom line (all gooey stuff aside), this ring is an investment and we want to make a sound purchase.
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Yeah, but were you looking at top-quality stones? That's the crux of the problem....people go out trolling the "maul" stores, and they don't realize that the product is strictly mid-grade. The chains have determined the most common carat weight desired and the most marketable price point, and they consequently bring in stones that will fit that criteria. That's why it's so hard to find truly well-cut stones as a basis for comparison.

J is part of the near-colorless range, and a mall-store J doesn't even remotely resemble a well-cut J such as can be found through vendors here.

A final note: BELIEVE me, I'm totally on board with people making a sound educated purchase, but I'd caution you not to consider this an "investment" per se...at least not in the same realm as stocks, real estate, etc. Buy it because it's the token/promise of your commitment. I don't say that because it's all touchy-feely....I say that because it's highly unlikely that a single diamond owned by someone other than an experienced diamond professional will truly be an "investment". It's not a money-making vehicle.....you'd be lucky to get back the money you spent for it.

Good luck, whatever you decide. Let us know if we can help.

 

[sylvesterii]

i still really question the "flourescence MAKING a stone look milky" i think it is the OPPOSITE, or at least reason would lead me to believe, especially since i have no diamond training of which to speak. If a diamond has "milky-white" cloud or super condensed cloud or some such inclusion, then it would be very logical to assume that it would flouresce. what does a white shirt do in a black light?
Therefore, it stands to reason that flouresence does not create a milky stone. I think the idea that all stones that flouresce are milky white is a fear by following an error in logic.
Somewhere along the line, someone had a stone that had strong flourescence, and it looked "milky" therefore, if a stone has flourescence, it must be milky. They should have thought if a stone is milky, then it has flourescence. These are not logically equal. I think the many testimonials from people stating that they have stones with flourescence that do not look milky. doesn anyone have a stone that looks milky that does not flouresce?
If so, then my assumption is incorrect as well. and milky-ness does not correlate with flourescence in any way.
any expert care to make me look like a fool, or to back me up???? i would appreciate either.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/10/2003 6:45:16 PM sylvesterii wrote: <hr size="1" any expert care to make me look like a fool, or to back me up???? i would appreciate either.
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Not an expert per say....but this is something I'm big on - following each post - each dealer - & each experience w/ blue fluor

Answer Yes & no. There exits overblues in the marketplace. They are more rare - but they exist.

 

[KLEDO]

The place is locally owned, not a mall store. I mentioned the mall jewelry stores because I wanted to point out that the J colored stones that I have seen there have all been nothing short of crap. I did not and could not believe a J would not appear the least bit yellow. However, when I saw the diamond, I was shocked. Yes, the stone size is large, but so is a 1.2,1.3 or 1.4 in my opinion. We went to this particular jeweler, a certified gemologist, because he has a great reputation. He also is responsible for my sister's spectacular ring (by anyone's standards), so he has our trust. And when I speak of an "investment", what I mean is if per chance we chose to sell it, it would not prove worthless, but would reflect the amount which we initally paid.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 10/10/2003 10:23:39 PM KLEDO wrote:





The place is locally owned, not a mall store. I mentioned the mall jewelry stores because I wanted to point out that the J colored stones that I have seen there have all been nothing short of crap. I did not and could not believe a J would not appear the least bit yellow. However, when I saw the diamond, I was shocked. Yes, the stone size is large, but so is a 1.2,1.3 or 1.4 in my opinion. We went to this particular jeweler, a certified gemologist, because he has a great reputation. He also is responsible for my sister's spectacular ring (by anyone's standards), so he has our trust. And when I speak of an 'investment', what I mean is if per chance we chose to sell it, it would not prove worthless, but would reflect the amount which we initally paid.
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I think you're mixing my comments with the wrong stones. You said you couldn't believe a J could face up so white because you're previous experience with J stones was "mall" stones. That's what I was referring to.......the Js you saw prior to this stone.

I understood this particular J stone to be at a local vendor as you specify, and this stone looks good. You said you're confused because of the HCA....you thought the stone looked beautiful and it scores somewhat mediocre on the HCA.

Does this vendor carry stones closer to an ideal cut? If so, have him show you some of those, too. Magna suggested that the numbers matter only to a point, and that's true (to a point). My suggestion was to compare this 4.5 stone (which is a good or borderline VG make) to some ideal-cut stones....side by side if possible.....to see if your eye can see the difference between makes. If you can't, then this J stone represents a potentially great buy to get a stone you find beautiful without paying for subtleties that your eye cannot distinguish.

Regarding the investment factor, I didn't express my thoughts very well. I was trying to say "don't expect to get what you pay for it if you resell". While someone like Rich Sherwood or similar may be able to get a respectable price on resale, it's terribly unlikely that you'd be able to get what you paid for it. That's why I mention it.....people commonly hear that "diamonds appreciate", and therefore think (often mistakenly) that they will at LEAST get back what they paid for it, if not more. In most cases, one will not get what s/he paid for it, and I'd hate for you to be disappointed later because nobody bothered to mention it to you now. That's all.

 

[valeria101]

WOW! This thread gets my head spinning, and I am just starting the day (in Europe)! I guess the conclusion is: get to see an J, VS-SI1 with exceptional cut (a Brilliance Scope scale-buster) and no fluorescence and see if the cut can do a better trick than the fluo. It might or might not, but most posts say you would still be surprised. If the 9K are not worth the trouble to dwell a little in the world of optimized cuts, then, this is OK too. It is YOUR diamond and no one is going to say any different in this regard. Unless you want to be able to sell it further. As investment, diamonds conserve good value relative to other things in most economic conditions, but not relative to their past worth or (especially) purchasing price. So, one may invest in diamonds in a country with perpetual double-digit inflation and the occasional revolution (mine), but not in the 'civilized world'. Really, I would not have slept as well knowing that someone is going to invest in an E-ring again. Get the dia you like: it seems that anyone should have one these days. If you truly want to invest in a diamond, get a D-E, FL-VS1 in the 20cts range, preferably with a pedigree, carefully priced after a thorough survey of the past two decades of high-end auction house records. THAT is something you could regard as 'investment' without getting a second career as a diamond dealer.

 

[robbe]

dear fire & ice,
the first post says

Fluorescence: Very strong blue

robbe

 

[fire&ice]

Not all very strong blues are overblues.

Only Kledo can answer the question of whether a stone will look milky/oily in sunlight.

While a stronger possiblity exist for overblue in a *very* strong blue, overblues are still rare. And, if the effect just happens in direct sunlight, some people don't mind the glow.

That said, everyone seems to be focusing on the cut here. The cut is good; but the SIZE is Huge in comparision. Unless the stone was a mess, one can not make up a size diff. between a well cut 1.3 & a good make 1.87.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 10/11/2003 9:15:09 AM fire&ice wrote:





That said, everyone seems to be focusing on the cut here. The cut is good; but the SIZE is Huge in comparision. Unless the stone was a mess, one can not make up a size diff. between a well cut 1.3 & a good make 1.87.
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Who said it has to go down to a 1.3 to get a well-cut make? I pointed Kledo to two stones that are exceptional make, also J, VS2. One was 1.66 ct and one was 1.56. The 1.66 stones scores a 1.3 on HCA, and it's nearly the same dimensions because it's not carry extra crap weight in the crown/pav.

Yes, she still has to decide if size or cut is more important to her, but I think she should at least SEE what the differences are in person to help make that decision.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/12/2003 12:44:07 PM aljdewey wrote:

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On 10/11/2003 9:15:09 AM fire&ice wrote:



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Who said it has to go down to a 1.3 to get a well-cut make? I pointed Kledo to two stones that are exceptional make, also J, VS2. One was 1.66 ct and one was 1.56. The 1.66 stones scores a 1.3 on HCA, and it's nearly the same dimensions because it's not carry extra crap weight in the crown/pav.

Yes, she still has to decide if size or cut is more important to her, but I think she should at least SEE what the differences are in person to help make that decision.
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And the J/VS2 stone you recommended - Did it *also* have strong blue? If it doesn't - that's huge diff. in a stone this size.

This is basically a bluff stone. Lots of bang for her buck. I maintain that the size alone will be impressive. The s.bl. fluor (if not oily in sunlight) will indeed help the face up whiteness of the stone.

This stone is speaking to her. She's looked around. She has had the luxury of actually seeing it - not comparing it to a *virtual* stone. HCA is just a preditor. The numbers are a good way to shop over the internet. Untrained eyes *can* tell when a stone is pretty to *them*.