Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all...

[Regular Guy]

Three Questions for Experts, Vendors & Consumers concerning the Kimberley Process…

1) Is there reason to hope?

The best argument, I thought, for supporting the inclusion of Zimbabwe’s diamonds, fraught with the specter of human rights abuses, was that the people of Zimbabwe could benefit from such a sale.

Perhaps it is not such a stretch to contemplate that the payoff for the people there may be an unrealizable consequence, but reporting this week documents the probability of this failed outcome, here:

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/af_zimbabwe0949_09_27.asp

This article is also well written, and a thorough view, bringing details current. For the one person at least on this board who has positively expressed with ambivalence the positive effects Kimberley may have by being “inclusive,” does he still feel this to be the case? Or do you? And if so…why?

2) Also, contemporaneously, there has come forward a petition to request that the rules of the Kimberley Process become reformed substantively, so that they include consideration of human rights abuses.

Though this petition, from what I can tell, is not featured on their site, it has been brought forward by a founder of “Brilliant Earth,” and although I have not previously found good things to say about them, I will compliment them on this move. Note, as a non-expert, I cannot speak with any authority on the real positive value of this specific effort…but having become aware of it, I was moved to sign myself. You can read more about it here:

http://humanrights.change.org/petit...imberley_process_to_prevent_conflict_diamonds

3) The closing text of the petition calls for signers to promise:

“.....I will only purchase diamonds that are fully traceable to originate from mines with responsible business practices that are not associated in any way with human rights abuses.”

To our Pricescope Vendors…which of you would be able to provide a product that would let your buyer have this information, with reasonable certainty?

To anyone, do you agree with the goodness of the central premise?

Realistically, in the market available today…in the fairly broad market, where neither Canadian diamonds nor the handful of fair trade diamonds are narrowly made available, is it even possible to get goods with this character.

And, if the answer is in the negative….what can be done to make this possible?

Ira Z.

 

[missydebby]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

Hey thanks for all posting that Ira. Good stuff to think about...

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

I believe very strongly in vendors being held accountable for the sources of their diamonds. It's fairly easy nowadays to guarantee that if you have a close relationship with knowledgeable sources of material.

--Joshua

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

Posted this as a second one because I'm not sure if answering your other question violates some policy. Vendors who have material from Canada can guarantee with complete certainty where the material is from, myself being one of them. This is also available with rough from certain companies in Africa and Russia.

Honestly though, there are quite a significant amount of customers who just don't care about where the stones came from if the price is right. I've had discussions on this forum on this topic before, specifically diamonds from Zimbabwe, and that concerns me.

--Joshua

 

[Regular Guy]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

Posted this as a second one because I'm not sure if answering your other question violates some policy. Vendors who have material from Canada can guarantee with complete certainty where the material is from, myself being one of them. This is also available with rough from certain companies in Africa and Russia.

Jonathan, thanks for getting back, twice.

Not sure what to say about self promotion. The form of my post asks for answers in the way of specific feedback from vendors. I hope these answers will be allowed.

Further, inasmuch as diamond purchasing by folks is a specifically elective process, and if we choose to not fingerpaint, and narrowly direct and select our constraints...let's stipulate we'd like to support Africa specifically, but just also understand that human rights violations have not, with reasonably good information, ensued.

Thanks for the attention to ethics at your site. Reviewing what you say there:

"For clients who are very concerned about African Diamonds, we offer a very large selection of Canadian Diamonds. In fact, all diamonds in our Hearts and Arrows collection are mined directly in Canada."

Can you help those shoppers who wish to purchase ethically from sources outside of Canada, and in Africa?

Who can?

Finally, where you say...

Honestly though, there are quite a significant amount of customers who just don't care about where the stones came from if the price is right.
--Joshua

But we're not talking about those people.

I've had discussions on this forum on this topic before, specifically diamonds from Zimbabwe, and that concerns me.

--Joshua

Me too.

Ira Z.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

Further, inasmuch as diamond purchasing by folks is a specifically elective process, and if we choose to not fingerpaint, and narrowly direct and select our constraints...let's stipulate we'd like to support Africa specifically, but just also understand that human rights violations have not, with reasonably good information, ensued.

It's possible using smaller niche rough material providers and also some larger providers in Africa to verify at a basic level they meet the criteria for ethical diamonds. It's a matter of taking the extra time, doing the research, and staying picky. Naturally the selection is smaller than you'd get from purely just a Kimberly Process selection. There's still some trust involved that those particular vendors that they are completely consistent in their values. I try to find suppliers who are really concerned about human rights on an activism scale instead of just a marketing scale.

Thanks for the attention to ethics at your site. Reviewing what you say there:

"For clients who are very concerned about African Diamonds, we offer a very large selection of Canadian Diamonds. In fact, all diamonds in our Hearts and Arrows collection are mined directly in Canada."

Can you help those shoppers who wish to purchase ethically from sources outside of Canada, and in Africa?

Yes, it's possible to get ethical stones from most sources, Russia, Africa, etc. It just takes more time, some phone calls, and has less flexibility and selection.

Who can?

I would imagine several of the other top tier providers here on PS would also take the time to hunt around if asked.


--Joshua

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

OT for a second.

Vendors who have material from Canada can guarantee with complete certainty where the material is from. This is also available with rough from certain companies in Africa and Russia.

Honestly though, there are quite a significant amount of customers who just don't care about where the stones came from if the price is right. I've had discussions on this forum on this topic before, specifically diamonds from Zimbabwe, and that concerns me.

--Joshua

Hi Joshua
As an old hand I edited your post in the quote above so it is 100% within the rules.
You can answer the question.

 

[diagem]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

It's possible using smaller niche rough material providers and also some larger providers in Africa to verify at a basic level they meet the criteria for ethical diamonds. It's a matter of taking the extra time, doing the research, and staying picky. Naturally the selection is smaller than you'd get from purely just a Kimberly Process selection. There's still some trust involved that those particular vendors that they are completely consistent in their values. I try to find suppliers who are really concerned about human rights on an activism scale instead of just a marketing scale.

Hi SD,

Can you please elaborate a bit more on the difference between (what you mean as) basic and KP?
And also would like to hear a bit more on securing rough from 'smaller niche providers'?
How can you (or other jewelers) verify the criteria for obtaining 'ethical diamonds'?

Thanks,

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

It's possible using smaller niche rough material providers and also some larger providers in Africa to verify at a basic level they meet the criteria for ethical diamonds. It's a matter of taking the extra time, doing the research, and staying picky. Naturally the selection is smaller than you'd get from purely just a Kimberly Process selection. There's still some trust involved that those particular vendors that they are completely consistent in their values. I try to find suppliers who are really concerned about human rights on an activism scale instead of just a marketing scale.

Hi SD,

Can you please elaborate a bit more on the difference between (what you mean as) basic and KP?
And also would like to hear a bit more on securing rough from 'smaller niche providers'?
How can you (or other jewelers) verify the criteria for obtaining 'ethical diamonds'?

Thanks,

For basic I mean not flying down monthly to the mine in Africa to verify that the workers are treated as stated by the individuals I deal with, nor performing detailed audits, follow up audits, etc. It necessitates an amount of trust.

KP basically states that my vendor will sign a form stating it meets the KP. For some clients, that's not enough. Zimbabwe was a great example of that. They want to know where it was mined and who mined it.

What do you want to heard about acquiring from small niche providers? There are providers who specialize on rough from specific areas and mines instead of the vendors who sell rough from DeB/etc that is from everywhere. You can ask your supplier where it was mined. They either know or don't know.

How do I verify? It depends on the particular requirement of the client. If it's Canadian, I work with vendors who are named providers from Canada. Same with Russia. For African I work with referrals from people who are as concerned about it as I am. From that point forward it's a research project to check references, check mines, ask locals, etc. Even at the most verified level, you have to rely on an aspect of trust.

--Joshua

 

[diagem]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

It's possible using smaller niche rough material providers and also some larger providers in Africa to verify at a basic level they meet the criteria for ethical diamonds. It's a matter of taking the extra time, doing the research, and staying picky. Naturally the selection is smaller than you'd get from purely just a Kimberly Process selection. There's still some trust involved that those particular vendors that they are completely consistent in their values. I try to find suppliers who are really concerned about human rights on an activism scale instead of just a marketing scale.

Hi SD,

Can you please elaborate a bit more on the difference between (what you mean as) basic and KP?
And also would like to hear a bit more on securing rough from 'smaller niche providers'?
How can you (or other jewelers) verify the criteria for obtaining 'ethical diamonds'?

Thanks,

For basic I mean not flying down monthly to the mine in Africa to verify that the workers are treated as stated by the individuals I deal with, nor performing detailed audits, follow up audits, etc. It necessitates an amount of trust.

KP basically states that my vendor will sign a form stating it meets the KP. For some clients, that's not enough. Zimbabwe was a great example of that. They want to know where it was mined and who mined it.

What do you want to heard about acquiring from small niche providers? There are providers who specialize on rough from specific areas and mines instead of the vendors who sell rough from DeB/etc that is from everywhere. You can ask your supplier where it was mined. They either know or don't know.

How do I verify? It depends on the particular requirement of the client. If it's Canadian, I work with vendors who are named providers from Canada. Same with Russia. For African I work with referrals from people who are as concerned about it as I am. From that point forward it's a research project to check references, check mines, ask locals, etc. Even at the most verified level, you have to rely on an aspect of trust.

--Joshua

OK, so we are back to the precious issue of trust in our industry .
We, industry professionals really understand the meaning of 'trust' within our industry practices..., the question remains how can we translate the importance of that 'trust' we practice day in-day out to the consumers..., after-all..., that is the only objective criteria for ethical Diamonds we currently have.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

"For clients who are very concerned about African Diamonds, we offer a very large selection of Canadian Diamonds. In fact, all diamonds in our Hearts and Arrows collection are mined directly in Canada."

Joshua,

How do you prove that claim? Do all of those diamonds you stock come with a girdle inscription matching the number on a GNWT (Government of Northwest Territories) certificate?

Or do you carry "Canadian" diamonds that are supposedly taken from Ontario or NWT mines but may be cut and polished outside of Canada making their origin less transparent and harder to track?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

I have always been slightly sickened by the idea of deliberately buying a Canadian diamond because you are not buying a possible blood diamond.

African's, even in Zimbabwae, even if there were terrible things done there in the past, need to mine their diamonds and raise the funds to improve peoples lives there.
At first I thought - avoid diamonds from Zim, but the more I learned over the past year about that place, the more my mind has come around to "what can diamonds do for a community or a nation".

it ain't B&W

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

I have always been slightly sickened by the idea of deliberately buying a Canadian diamond because you are not buying a possible blood diamond.

African's, even in Zimbabwae, even if there were terrible things done there in the past, need to mine their diamonds and raise the funds to improve peoples lives there.
At first I thought - avoid diamonds from Zim, but the more I learned over the past year about that place, the more my mind has come around to "what can diamonds do for a community or a nation".

it ain't B&W

My answer to your question is nothing as long as the government is corrupt and don't care about the people.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

I have always been slightly sickened by the idea of deliberately buying a Canadian diamond because you are not buying a possible blood diamond.

African's, even in Zimbabwae, even if there were terrible things done there in the past, need to mine their diamonds and raise the funds to improve peoples lives there.
At first I thought - avoid diamonds from Zim, but the more I learned over the past year about that place, the more my mind has come around to "what can diamonds do for a community or a nation".

it ain't B&W

agree with Garry... ...i'd guess over 80% of the women around world are wearing blood diamonds.

 

[Regular Guy]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

Thanks, friends, for taking the time to weigh in. I'd like to share three reflections in turn, responding backwards to the comments shared, with most recent first:

1) Garry, not sure if you can tell, but I was calling you out at the beginning of my post, where I said that: " For the one person at least on this board who has positively expressed with ambivalence the positive effects Kimberley may have by being “inclusive,” does he still feel this to be the case? Or do you? And if so…why?"

I am presently in larger agreement with Karl on this point. Did you read the article I introduced this thread with? Although it's possible a credible version of support for a more corrupt Kimberley (instead of a non-used Kimberley) could go like you say...better to at least have this, so that the people of Zimbabwe can be served....but the article persuasively documents that this intention is not even being carried out. So, on the face of it, where I ask at the beginning: "Is there reason to hope?" the answer may be more fairly...no, there is not. Better to target more strictly reforming Kimberly, than instead trying to fit everybody into the big tent. This...because there is not good representation that the existing tent is really providing the sought after cover.

2) Then, there is the question Yoram raises of trust. Of course, it is somewhat troubling that Yoram might be so stringent on the question of determining of availability of ethically mined diamonds, because one would think his place in the supply side would put him really closer than most to where he could see and determine whether mining was being done more constructively or destructively. But...question he does. The questions are good.

What is not good, to my reading, is the hazy brushing of trust from one level down to the next, where you write:

OK, so we are back to the precious issue of trust in our industry .
We, industry professionals really understand the meaning of 'trust' within our industry practices..., the question remains how can we translate the importance of that 'trust' we practice day in-day out to the consumers..., after-all..., that is the only objective criteria for ethical Diamonds we currently have.

a) To my mind, this is inappropriately mixing together practices that have no business being mixed together. If we lived in a society where news didn't travel from town to town, you might more readily consider throwing up your hands, and saying...you can only know what you do yourself. But that is not the world we live in. News travels well and quite fast. If you are honest with your colleague, and your customer, it is really simply not enough to say..that is all I can do.

It is not enough.

I could make an example of the stock market. A theory has been current that you could do well to invest in it, because it's a blind market, and a random walk. Sign onto and trust the process. Then...we more recently (at least) have had the melt down on Wall Street, and a sense of fear that the randomness is not so random. I do still invest in the market, but I do not have the confidence I would like to have in the process. This is certainly true about choices with diamond options as well. Here, I would like to think I have options. Trust the process, you say? Reports of human rights abuses are too prominent, and there really seems to be no reason to have this trust. Instead, the smart saying is: trust, but verify.

b) As in happens, though it's also been reported on before, in today's briefing from Rappaport's Trade Wire, he discusses a possible strategy, sponsored by the Responsible Jewelry Council that goes like this:

"RJC Weighs Chain of Custody Certification

The Responsible Jewelry Council (RJC), proposed a Chain-of-Custody Certification System, which will allow consumers to see the exact origin of diamonds, gold and platinum metals before making a purchase. The chain follows the path of each stone or metal, so consumers know exactly where their jewelry came from, thus making sure it was responsibly and ethically made. A second paper discussing the plan is available for stakeholders to look at and give feedback. "

So, although maybe the best methods are not in place today, we can see evidence of strategies for getting there.

3) I like Joshua's comments. His sensitivities make sense to me. He says, no, maybe you won't be able to prove with certainty about the sources of origins, but you can make substantive efforts to nail them down, even today.

He also says his esteemed colleagues surely have similar strategies. Well, I could trust that, but if some of them would say that, it would go aways to help verify.

Ira Z.

 

[diagem]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

2) Then, there is the question Yoram raises of trust. Of course, it is somewhat troubling that Yoram might be so stringent on the question of determining of availability of ethically mined diamonds, because one would think his place in the supply side would put him really closer than most to where he could see and determine whether mining was being done more constructively or destructively. But...question he does. The questions are good.

What is not good, to my reading, is the hazy brushing of trust from one level down to the next, where you write:

OK, so we are back to the precious issue of trust in our industry .
We, industry professionals really understand the meaning of 'trust' within our industry practices..., the question remains how can we translate the importance of that 'trust' we practice day in-day out to the consumers..., after-all..., that is the only objective criteria for ethical Diamonds we currently have.

a) To my mind, this is inappropriately mixing together practices that have no business being mixed together. If we lived in a society where news didn't travel from town to town, you might more readily consider throwing up your hands, and saying...you can only know what you do yourself. But that is not the world we live in. News travels well and quite fast. If you are honest with your colleague, and your customer, it is really simply not enough to say..that is all I can do.

I never said its all we can do..., but as I see it these days it is the most realistic. All the rest are just nice & pleasing marketing tunes to the ears. I have not met yet a wide enough system that can guarantee consumers a provenance of each and every Diamond.

b) As in happens, though it's also been reported on before, in today's briefing from Rappaport's Trade Wire, he discusses a possible strategy, sponsored by the Responsible Jewelry Council that goes like this:

"RJC Weighs Chain of Custody Certification

The Responsible Jewelry Council (RJC), proposed a Chain-of-Custody Certification System, which will allow consumers to see the exact origin of diamonds, gold and platinum metals before making a purchase. The chain follows the path of each stone or metal, so consumers know exactly where their jewelry came from, thus making sure it was responsibly and ethically made. A second paper discussing the plan is available for stakeholders to look at and give feedback. "

So, although maybe the best methods are not in place today, we can see evidence of strategies for getting there.

RJC is working on various Certification systems to help build Consumer confidence, but will take a few more years to see the results.
I still dont know how RJC plans an on-product RJC certification of tracked diamond products for consumer sale. But will be happy to see it turn into reality.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

Karl I learned a decade ago that the BS we got about Russia was BS, and I suspect our press is loaded with it too about Zim. There are problems D'oH! but KP was designed to solve a different problem - not rouge states - i.e. this one >

DF, maybe 10-20% at one time were conflict diamonds and 5% were bloody diamonds.

Ira I know the RJC people pretty well - most live within 1/2 hour drive of me. I don't think the certification system is going to be easy to develop (I am almost a founding RJC member and support their activities).

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

"For clients who are very concerned about African Diamonds, we offer a very large selection of Canadian Diamonds. In fact, all diamonds in our Hearts and Arrows collection are mined directly in Canada."

Joshua,

How do you prove that claim? Do all of those diamonds you stock come with a girdle inscription matching the number on a GNWT (Government of Northwest Territories) certificate?

Or do you carry "Canadian" diamonds that are supposedly taken from Ontario or NWT mines but may be cut and polished outside of Canada making their origin less transparent and harder to track?

Myself and suppliers follow the Canadian Code of Conduct:
http://www.canadiandiamondcodeofconduct.ca/EN_code.htm

My suppliers are also listed on this page:
http://www.canadiandiamondcodeofconduct.ca/EN_nonretailers.htm

I can supply diamonds with the CanadaMark if necessary.

--Joshua

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

I have always been slightly sickened by the idea of deliberately buying a Canadian diamond because you are not buying a possible blood diamond.

African's, even in Zimbabwae, even if there were terrible things done there in the past, need to mine their diamonds and raise the funds to improve peoples lives there.
At first I thought - avoid diamonds from Zim, but the more I learned over the past year about that place, the more my mind has come around to "what can diamonds do for a community or a nation".

it ain't B&W

It doesn't sicken me, customers have a right to discernment. While Africa has been improving substantially in its transparency, it is very well known for the exploitation of its local population, even those that are currently being 'helped'. While not a 'blood diamond' some clients are very particular about the business practices of different diamond cartels and businesses, and Africa still has issues there in some cases. While in most cases I don't think it's necessary to avoid Africa, I applaud educated customers in taking the time to evaluate the effect of their purchase on the peoples who may be mining, cutting, and selling the stone.

--joshua

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

"For clients who are very concerned about African Diamonds, we offer a very large selection of Canadian Diamonds. In fact, all diamonds in our Hearts and Arrows collection are mined directly in Canada."

Joshua,

How do you prove that claim? Do all of those diamonds you stock come with a girdle inscription matching the number on a GNWT (Government of Northwest Territories) certificate?

Or do you carry "Canadian" diamonds that are supposedly taken from Ontario or NWT mines but may be cut and polished outside of Canada making their origin less transparent and harder to track?

Myself and suppliers follow the Canadian Code of Conduct:
http://www.canadiandiamondcodeofconduct.ca/EN_code.htm

My suppliers are also listed on this page:
http://www.canadiandiamondcodeofconduct.ca/EN_nonretailers.htm

I can supply diamonds with the CanadaMark if necessary.

--Joshua

Here it what it says in the Canada Code of Conduct for cutters and suppliers:

"assign a unique Diamond Production Number to each diamond. The
cutters and polishers must be able to reconcile their unique Diamond
Production Number with the Canadian rough diamonds identified by a
unique parcel number on an invoice issued by a mining marketing facility
or trader that abides by the minimum requirements outlined in this Code;
and,
5.4.3.2 in order to be authenticated, each individual diamond that will be sold as
Canadian must be kept separated and must retain its unique Diamond
Production Number throughout production."

Now for the seller

The trader must, when selling polished diamonds, ensure that:
5.5.5.1 the polished diamonds are securely packaged; and
5.5.5.2 the individual diamond package(s) is clearly labelled identifying:
(a) the description of the polished diamond; and
(b) Diamond Production Number or the unique Diamond Identification
Number for each diamond; and,
5.5.5.3 each sale is accompanied by an official invoice which includes the
information outlined in 5.5.4.

5.5.4
5.5.4.1 the name and address of the trader;
5.5.4.2 a statement of certification that the polished diamond(s) is a "Product of
Canada" or "Made in Canada"(with a qualifying statement);
5.5.4.3 the unique Diamond Production Number or Diamond Identification
Number of the polished diamond;
5.5.4.4 a polished diamond description;
5.5.4.5 the date of invoice; and,
5.5.4.6 the name and address of the customer.

So your answer should have been simply yes, all of my diamonds are sold with a unique Diamond Production or Identification Number.
Instead I got I can supply diamonds with the CanadaMark if necessary.

Does that mean the girdle inscription is not their or that you don't even provide the Diamond Production or Identification Numbers upon sale?

Also this policy states that a diamond, which was mined in Canada , qualifies for the purposes of the Competition Act and may be cut and polished in Canada or abroad. So the answer to my question is no the diamonds you sell as "Canadian" are not necessarily polished in Canada, nor using Canadian labour, otherwise that secondary statemement would not be necessary.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

The answer is "it depends on each diamond and the client's requirements". Not all of my diamonds are from Canada, and not all of my diamonds from Canada contain the CanadaMark. The CanadaMark belongs to BHP Billiton. I work with a couple suppliers from Canada.

For clients that want the CanadaMark, I will provide them with a selection of diamonds that follow that supply chain. My SerenityHearts collection is mostly CanadaMark.

You're going to have to describe how removing a diamond from Canada and Polishing it elsewhere makes it harder to track. if someone is going to slip 'unknown material' into the supply chain dishonestly, they can insert it just as easily in Canada, as they could here or elsewhere. Each stone is documented during its process whether it is polished in Canada, Antwerp, Israel, or New York.

If you don't trust me as a vendor, don't use me. I was answering questions related to the ability to determine and document in good faith the sources of a particular stone. Do I have a process that can isolate all forms of dishonesty that exist in the world? No, and no one does.

Personally I'm very concerned about fair trade and consider it very important to how I do business and also how I purchase items for myself in my personal life. I do this in good faith with other vendors who share the same beliefs as I do.

--Joshua

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

The answer is "it depends on each diamond and the client's requirements". Not all of my diamonds are from Canada, and not all of my diamonds from Canada contain the CanadaMark. The CanadaMark belongs to BHP Billiton. I work with a couple suppliers from Canada.

For clients that want the CanadaMark, I will provide them with a selection of diamonds that follow that supply chain. My SerenityHearts collection is mostly CanadaMark.

You're going to have to describe how removing a diamond from Canada and Polishing it elsewhere makes it harder to track. if someone is going to slip 'unknown material' into the supply chain dishonestly, they can insert it just as easily in Canada, as they could here or elsewhere. Each stone is documented during its process whether it is polished in Canada, Antwerp, Israel, or New York.

If you don't trust me as a vendor, don't use me. I was answering questions related to the ability to determine and document in good faith the sources of a particular stone. Do I have a process that can isolate all forms of dishonesty that exist in the world? No, and no one does.

Personally I'm very concerned about fair trade and consider it very important to how I do business and also how I purchase items for myself in my personal life. I do this in good faith with other vendors who share the same beliefs as I do.

--Joshua

Joshua,

I understand your interest in fair trade and consumer protection but the "verification of the chain of custody" is very much what I am concerned about, especially for consumers and vendors who value ethical concerns enough to pay the premium for "canadian" diamonds.

You said"

"For clients who are very concerned about African Diamonds, we offer a very large selection of Canadian Diamonds"

To be in conformity with the code as a sellor of "Canadian" diamonds you are supposed to disclose:

5.5.4.3 the unique Diamond Production Number or Diamond Identification

On EVERY diamond sold as Canadian.

Do you?

I'm not talking about the CanadaMark that is not listed in the Code of Conduct and I never mentioned it. I'm not talking about The Polar Bear or Maple Leaf either, close family friends of my inlaws are part stake owners in those brands. Those are marketing and identification symbols that are not the focus to me.

 

[diagem]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

If you don't trust me as a vendor, don't use me. I was answering questions related to the ability to determine and document in good faith the sources of a particular stone. Do I have a process that can isolate all forms of dishonesty that exist in the world? No, and no one does.

Personally I'm very concerned about fair trade and consider it very important to how I do business and also how I purchase items for myself in my personal life. I do this in good faith with other vendors who share the same beliefs as I do.

--Joshua

Thats exactly it..., I believe we (the great majority of industry professionals) are all genuinely trying to the best of our control to be dealing with a product that originates and travels down the process in a fair and ethical fashion.
Its not absolute (can't be at the moment), but some of the language used as marketing tunes is deceptive.

Not aimed at SD!

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

To be in conformity with the code as a sellor of "Canadian" diamonds you are supposed to disclose:

5.5.4.3 the unique Diamond Production Number or Diamond Identification

On EVERY diamond sold as Canadian.

Do you?

I'm not talking about the CanadaMark that is not listed in the Code of Conduct and I never mentioned it. I'm not talking about The Polar Bear or Maple Leaf either, close family friends of my inlaws are part stake owners in those brands. Those are marketing and identification symbols that are not the focus to me.

Yes I do.

--Joshua

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

To be in conformity with the code as a sellor of "Canadian" diamonds you are supposed to disclose:

5.5.4.3 the unique Diamond Production Number or Diamond Identification

On EVERY diamond sold as Canadian.

Do you?

I'm not talking about the CanadaMark that is not listed in the Code of Conduct and I never mentioned it. I'm not talking about The Polar Bear or Maple Leaf either, close family friends of my inlaws are part stake owners in those brands. Those are marketing and identification symbols that are not the focus to me.

Yes I do.

--Joshua

Then you are doing what you can.
I make the distinction between products manufactured in Canada from those outside of Canada and wouldn't call the latter Canadian but as to proof of origin od rough that is not bad.

I wish the code required the diamonds to be girdle inscribed with the DPN or DIN like the GNWT diamonds but its a minor point if the documents rough information and numbers can be linked to the consumers DPN or DIN.

 

[Apprepcen]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

I recently had an offer to buy Zimbabwe rough diamonds. Apparently they come with a Kimberley certificate. How they do that, I don't know. There are ways to clean conflict diamonds. Take a small miner in South Africa. He does not produce very many diamonds. Now I approach him with blood diamonds from elsewhere in Africa and pay him - say $100 per carat - to declare that he mined them. He will do it, but maybe the price that he will require will be more than $100 per carat.

Once the deal is done, those diamonds have been laundered and find their way to the consumers in the USA. QED!! Done this way you get "clean" diamonds at a very good price.

So what is the solution? Don't buy African diamonds at all. There is no other way to ensure that the diamonds you buy are conflict free.

 

[kenny]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

I recently had an offer to buy Zimbabwe rough diamonds. Apparently they come with a Kimberley certificate. How they do that, I don't know. There are ways to clean conflict diamonds. Take a small miner in South Africa. He does not produce very many diamonds. Now I approach him with blood diamonds from elsewhere in Africa and pay him - say $100 per carat - to declare that he mined them. He will do it, but maybe the price that he will require will be more than $100 per carat.

Once the deal is done, those diamonds have been laundered and find their way to the consumers in the USA. QED!! Done this way you get "clean" diamonds at a very good price.

So what is the solution? Don't buy African diamonds at all. There is no other way to ensure that the diamonds you buy are conflict free.

If some crook can bribe someone to magically transform conflict diamonds into conflict-free ones, then a crook can bribe someone to magically transform an African diamonds into a Canadian ones.

Are you by any chance a trade member who deals in diamonds that compete with African diamonds?
That would explain why someone with one post would register, search for this 9-month old thread, and raise it from the dead just to post this to promotion of non-African diamonds.

I don't like people being abused any more than the next guy, but there's something fishy here.
Plus probably half the products in your house involved some abuse of disadvantages people along the manufacturing chain back to when their raw materials were extracted from the earth.
That's not right either but it's odd how diamonds get singled out.

 

[Apprepcen]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

No I don't trade with diamonds. I am actually doing research about why diamonds are so highly priced while they are actually not that scarce. I live in South Africa, so I why would I promote some foreign "brand" over a home grown "brand" like the de Beers "Forevermark"? The de Beers Corporation brought tremendous benefits to the South African economy and even if I try I will not be able to stop them.

It is interesting to see how de Beers manipulated the demand for these stones. The price to the end consumer does not reflect the cost to produce it Or are they that good an investment vehicle?

As for your remark about someone from an African diamond mine being able to bribe a Canadian miner, I disagree. It is much easier for someone to cross the Zim SA border to wash these stones, than to ship them to Canada and risk them getting lost or stolen. The cost is also too high to do that.

All in all I find it fascinating, how a boytjie from Africa could sway the whole civilized world to pay such high prices for something he gathered up with payloaders.

And they still have the industry by the short and curlies, even though they are not the biggest producers any more. How do they do it? I think it is fascinating, don't you?

Who initiated the Kimberley process and in response to what market threat?

 

[Apprepcen]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

I don't think my previous post is complete.

Kenny, it is not just diamonds that are targeted, but this is a gemstone discussion forum. Other issues that can be discussed is the offshore manufacturing that takes place in China and not in the USA. Apple is one culprit. The US wants cheap prices, but the cheap prices that they are paying for right now is an illusion. The future generations will pay for the current "profit above all else" attitude of American Corporations. The cracks in the system are already appearing.

But this issue, however important it may be, is not relevant to the discussion here, because the discussion board is about those shiny little stones that we all love so much.

What started my engine on this?

This online book.
http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diamond/prologue.htm

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: Three Questions concerning the Kimberley Process for all

No I don't trade with diamonds. I am actually doing research about why diamonds are so highly priced while they are actually not that scarce. I live in South Africa, so I why would I promote some foreign "brand" over a home grown "brand" like the de Beers "Forevermark"? The de Beers Corporation brought tremendous benefits to the South African economy and even if I try I will not be able to stop them.

It is interesting to see how de Beers manipulated the demand for these stones. The price to the end consumer does not reflect the cost to produce it Or are they that good an investment vehicle?

As for your remark about someone from an African diamond mine being able to bribe a Canadian miner, I disagree. It is much easier for someone to cross the Zim SA border to wash these stones, than to ship them to Canada and risk them getting lost or stolen. The cost is also too high to do that.

All in all I find it fascinating, how a boytjie from Africa could sway the whole civilized world to pay such high prices for something he gathered up with payloaders.

And they still have the industry by the short and curlies, even though they are not the biggest producers any more. How do they do it? I think it is fascinating, don't you?

Who initiated the Kimberley process and in response to what market threat?

Perhaps this belongs in a different thread. You bring up a fair amount of things that are staples among the opponents of the diamond industry that have nothing whatever to do with Kimberly, the supposed topic. Nonetheless they are important and I’l try and answer a few while I wait here at the airport.
Diamond rarity. Diamonds are extremely rare, they are extremely difficult to mine, they are extremely difficult to process and they are distributed through a very costly distribution channel. This is not evil, it’s simply the facts. Worldwide production last year was roughly 33 tons of diamonds. That’s every mine in the world combined working for the entire year. Perhaps that sound like a lot and there are certainly materials that are a fair amount scarcer but that’s decidedly exotic stuff. That’s about 0.05cts per person. It’s a gross misrepresentation to describe the process of diamond mining as ‘gathering them up with payloaders’.

Costs. Cutting takes hours of labor per stone. Again, this is done in factories that are efficient and don’t always pay very well but the manufacturing costs are substantial. They are distributed through a network of wholesalers, laboratories, retailers, websites, etc. throughout the world and distribution accounts for well over 3/4 of the cost of diamonds. Mining is the first step, but it's not even the biggest component of the price of most diamonds at retail.

Demand. It’s certainly true that the ‘diamond invention’ of connecting diamonds to the engagement tradition was an enormously effective piece of marketing, but the implication that this is somehow evil or insidious is, at best, a narrow view of world economics and at worst a deliberate misrepresentation. Nearly everything we buy is unnecessary, nearly everything we produce is optional, and the symbolic nature of diamonds is an ENTIRELY valid reason to buy them. Why are the sellers of diamonds more effective at this than, say, the sellers of Bixbite, which is 1000 times more scarce, 1/10 of the price and really IS controlled by a single source? That’s a question for business schools to address while they think about why Nike seems to be better at selling shoes than their competition. Prices come from the competitive marketplace and demand by consumers. Period. That’s why IF’s cost more than VS1’s even though you can’t see the difference without tools. DeBeers didn’t invent this but they do seem to be well skilled at exploiting it. That boytjie from Africa was a clever fellow. I’m no big fan of DeBeers but on this one I have no complaint. They charge as much as the market will bear for their stuff. So do I. So do most other people. So do the miners of Bixbite. I suspect that so do you.

Does DeBeers have us all by the short hairs? I don’t think so but I can see how you would describe it that way. DeBeers does have competitors but those competitors are interested in selling their stuff for as much as possible too. They sell 100% of what they want to sell now so what would be the point of discounting? They would get the same volume of sales but less money. (note: Mining companies traditionally sell their entire output recently there have been some, notably DeBeers and Alrosa who have been holding back inventory in the hope of getting higher prices in the future. We’ll see how this plays out).

The threat that Kimberley was specifically created to address was a PR problem associated with human and environmental abuses in the producing countries. It was the direct result of consumer pressure and it was suggested, and entirely possible, that people would buy fewer diamonds unless something were done about it. Did it work? To some extent, yes it did. In addition, it HAS reduced some of the most egregious abuses, it HAS opened up a venue for sellers wishing to promote goods as ‘better’ because of how and where they were produced. It has also been a great boon to the tax collections in some very poor places like Sierra Leone at the expense of black marketeers and pirates. In some cases, like Zimbabwe, the government is little better than the pirates in terms of their behavior and it’s hard to tell if empowering them is really progress but, overall, I think Kimberley has clearly improved the lot of Africans, South Americans, Canadians and other producers of diamonds. It was created by a consortium of mining companies and governments of producer and consumer countries. DeBeers was and is certainly a major player but they were definitely not the only participant, nor are they the only beneficiary.