Thoughts on this GOG OMC?

[cushioncushion]

Good point, Liane. But if someone posted a question about the potential purchase of a Tiffany Legacy diamond, do you think some folks on here might suggest the poster check out Rhino''s August Vintage Cushions or Square Hearts and Arrow Cushions as well? Certainly the patented Legacy diamond is not the same as a GOG stones, but many on here would think giving the poster another option to check out was good advice, don''t you think?

By the way, I''d take an August Vintage over a Legacy any day, even though Tiffany charges way more for a similar cts, color and clarity.

 

[cushioncushion]

So Collee, when someone posts about a stone he or she is considering, it''s wrong to discuss value and alternatives? If that were the case, half the posts on here would have to be deleted. If the poster had asked about an ERD stone, I would have suggested they check out GOG as well. In retrospect, though, I probably should have pointed out that GOG''s outstanding lifetime policies should be factored into any purchase decision.

P.S. I don''t think it''s rude at all to ask a large volume merchant about any policy or practice, including mark-ups. Is it rude to question the high mark-ups charged at some B&M stores, or does your rule only apply to Pricescope vendors?

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 12/8/2009 8:43:10 PM
Author: cushioncushion
Wow...some interesting responses. It appears that this forum is becoming more like a cheerleading section for several Pricescope vendors, as opposed to one devoted to consumer education. I suggested that the poster at least check out another vendor with a smaller mark-up before making a decision, the seller jumps in with some assertions which I ask to be clarified and lots of people get upset.

The latest response is particularly telling. How dare someone ask a Pricescope vendor about pricing policies. Yea, it would be really terrible if consumers used this forum to discuss how to get the best possible deal.

Interestingly, no one was bothered at all by the vendor''s potentially incomplete response. These diamonds cost more becasue the cutter charges more and gives up weight. No other reasons given. If there''s another reason--a higher mark-up by the vendor--should that have been mentioned as well?

In my view, a vendor who makes the decision to post on here has the absolute right to politely decline to answer any question posed by a consumer. If, however, a vendor chooses to respond to a question or assertion, does the consumer deserve a 100% accurate and complete response?

The ironic part is, as I specifically stated several times in this thread, I think the August Vintage Cushions are fantastic and well worth the higher price. And to be clear, I''m not suggesting that the vendor involved intentionally misrepresented anything--in fact I know he and his company have built a teriffic reputation for honesty and integrity. I''m just suggesting that, in the vendor''s well deserved excitement about his great product, perhaps he inadvertently left out some information in the response.

Funny how, when a B&M store question comes up, no one hesitates to tell a consumer that a certain mark-up is a ripoff. But heaven forbit anyone mention the question of markup when a Pricescope vendor is involved. Very sad!

CushionCushion,

I once again ask you what you are comparing to and I''m not jumping on you but it impossible to answer your question without further clarification.

GOG August Vintage Versus ERD Cushion?
GOG August Vintage Versus Another Branded Cut Offered by GOG?
GOG Ideal Round Versus Other Vendors Ideal Rounds?

I have purchased stones from both ERD and GOG and I have no need to be on either vendor''s cheering section.

1) If you are comparing GOG August Vintage to ERD''s 8 Main Antique Cushions, no doubt ERD has better pricing for same 4 Cs. ERD acts as a quasi wholesaler they have lower overhead and a different sales model. His prices are less, but you also don''t have the luxury of the optical tests, his buyback and upgrade policies are not as good and his inventory is mostly virtual and called in upon request. When buying a stone from ERD, the scrutiny of the diamond optics is not the same, he only uses his eyes and he is not as picky as Jon nor as interested in diamond cut developement. While you won''t get a dud from ERD Mark is well respected here for his knowledge and keen eyes, however you won''t get the level of perfection of a GOG vintage or other branded cuts. I did that precise comparison at an appraisor''s office already and have also seen this easily by comparison of ASETs given to me when I was choosing. If you look at my first thread on PS you can see the differences in the ASET of an ERD cushion offered to me versus a GOG signature. https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/old-mine-brilliant-versus-cushion-brilliant-gotta-have-the-maltese-cross.118358/

You must compare apples to apples and there is no apple like the August Vintage. The danger in telling a customer who has already identified they like an August Vintage to look at other vendors for the same type of cushion is that without viewing them side by side in person they may never realize how superior the August Vintage is. When I was less experienced I might have chosen an inferior cut as it was cheaper and later regretted it, while ignorance is bliss, I know more than a few PSers who have buyers remorse after subsequently seeing an August Vintage as compared to their current cushions.

2) If you are comparing Ideal Rounds at GOG to WF or BGD I''d say I have seen examples where GOG was slightly more expensive 5 - 15% more.
3) In addition for virtual inventory I have seen cases where a stone had a very small markup and was called in by GOG and then marked up even more. This used to happen with Cushions because GOG would call in many and pay shipping and insurance, looking for a needle in a haystack and then they bought the best stones for their inventory marking them up to recover the costs of all the rejected stones. I don''t think they do that nearly as much anymore now that they designed their own cushion but it did happen before.

Do you still have a question somewhere in this thread?

 

[Collee]

Date: 12/8/2009 10:14:35 PM
Author: cushioncushion
So Collee, when someone posts about a stone he or she is considering, it's wrong to discuss value and alternatives? If that were the case, half the posts on here would have to be deleted. If the poster had asked about an ERD stone, I would have suggested they check out GOG as well. In retrospect, though, I probably should have pointed out that GOG's outstanding lifetime policies should be factored into any purchase decision.


P.S. I don't think it's rude at all to ask a large volume merchant about any policy or practice, including mark-ups. Is it rude to question the high mark-ups charged at some B&M stores, or does your rule only apply to Pricescope vendors?

It would absolutely be appropriate and relevant to offer alternative options. However, this was not the intention of the thread. Again, the OP was requesting confirmation of her stone choice (which she obviously adores and is beyond thrilled with). The questioning of the vendor's pricing policies were irrelevant and inappropriate.

To each his/her own but I would never ask a seller (of any goods) to disclose their pricing policies. IMO, it is readily apparent why some merchants (of any goods) offer items at a higher or lower price tag than their competitors.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 12/8/2009 11:27:10 PM
Author: Collee

Date: 12/8/2009 10:14:35 PM
Author: cushioncushion
So Collee, when someone posts about a stone he or she is considering, it's wrong to discuss value and alternatives? If that were the case, half the posts on here would have to be deleted. If the poster had asked about an ERD stone, I would have suggested they check out GOG as well. In retrospect, though, I probably should have pointed out that GOG's outstanding lifetime policies should be factored into any purchase decision.


P.S. I don't think it's rude at all to ask a large volume merchant about any policy or practice, including mark-ups. Is it rude to question the high mark-ups charged at some B&M stores, or does your rule only apply to Pricescope vendors?

It would absolutely be appropriate and relevant to offer alternative options. However, this was not the intention of the thread. Again, the OP was requesting confirmation of her stone choice (which she obviously adores and is beyond thrilled with). The questioning of the vendor's pricing policies were irrelevant and inappropriate.

To each his/her own but I would never ask a seller (of any goods) to disclose their pricing policies. IMO, it is readily apparent why some merchants (of any goods) offer items at a higher or lower price tag than their competitors.

No actually diamonds are the least apparent of any goods I know of to comparison shop or understand why some merchants offer items at a higher or lower pricetag.
I think Rhino has to constantly try to justify his pricing and explain it to consumers and he isn't as expert at this as he is at explaning Diamond optics.

I have been studying prices for months and still don't fully grasp the pricing of fancy diamonds. The typical line that Cushions can vary by thousands means

to me, that is way too general and I don't think any dealer really wants to get into this in more detail.

Mark at ERD informed me that Cushion Brilliants cost more than modified cushions because more rough is cut away extending the pavillion facets to the girdle this explains why CBs cost more than MCBs but a lot of the pricing is still quite inconsistent to me.

I find diamond vendors do a poor job of justifying their prices and much of the price formula is kept hidden from consumers.

 

[cushioncushion]

Chunky Cushion Lover, thanks for your most informative post on pricing. I appears you have your finger on the pulse of the Pricescope market Wow...we both own stones from GOG and ERD. I don''t know about you...but I love them both! I assume you found your experience with both vendors highly satisfactory--I certainly did.

The side-by-side comparison is a great idea. Did you have to buy both stones to accomplish the face off?

 

[Rhino]

Hi cushioncushion,

Sorry I was not able to come to this thread to respond sooner. When talking about this subject and when it concerns diamonds of my own I walk a fine line here regarding forum rules which I make every attempt to respect. Andrey, if any of my commentary you feel crosses the line with regards to what you feel is self promotion etc. please feel free to delete any part of what I write as this is not my intent.

Date: 12/7/2009 9:20:13 PM
Author: cushioncushion
Thanks for responding, Rhino.


All that makes perfect sense, but...you managed to evade the basic question. Does GOG charge a higher mark-up on the August Vintage Cushions, compared to other stones? I understand how the cutter will want to charge you more for the extra time involved and losing weight in the special cutting process, but GOG is not the cutter, so all of that is immaterial to your mark-up.

Not an easy question to answer but let me try to lift the veil so to speak and allow you to see a little into my world. It was not my intent to evade the question although it would be easy enough for me to respond with a simple ... it's none of your business. If you've spoken with me in the past you know I am a very transparent person and run a very transparent business so here's the scoop.

Firstly although I am not physically "the cutter" (as in doing the manual labor of cutting) I am what many in the industry would "technically" be considered the cutter. I direct preciely what I want cut to the facilities I work with who cut our products, I purchase the rough and if the diamonds are not cut to specs (with regards to 3 particular cuts I feature, ie. modified H&A with long lower girdle facets and the 2 August Vintage lines) the diamond goes back to be finished until it is perfect and consistent with what I know it should be. Personally I do not look at myself as a cutter because I've always traditionally looked at the person on the wheel as "the cutter". I was a little surprised when I was referred to as one by a trade member. In any case ... In the direct answer to your question to a charge a higher markup on AVC's the answer is both yes and no and let me expound.

When rough is purchased it is purchased in lots. Say we purchase a lot or business of 15-20 diamonds whose price on average would fall in the G VS2 zone. Of this business and after the labor and cutting the diamonds are then sent to either GIA or AGS. Of this business there will be a certain percentage of them that will grade as low as H SI1 and some as high as F VS1 with a better portion of the diamonds (Lord willing) coming in around the G VS2 zone. Some diamonds we lose on, some we make more on while the averages, we make average markup on. So markup varies from diamond to diamond. When presenting a "brand" however it is important to represent *consistency* across the board. If profit is not maintained the brand fails. It's as simple as that.

Now with regards to figuring a safe haven for markup structure my rule of thumb is pretty simple actually and consider the following (which I've already touched upon in my previous post).

a. The time spent/labor & amount of rough that is cut away to produce the final product. At this moment I can purchase the average cushion cut for weight anywhere from 20-35% back from the current list (on 1ct sizes). The labor plus the waste from the rough is costing me more than this to arrive at our completed product (for D-K colors and even more on lower colors in relation to list). What I stated previously was absolutely true and unambiguous. I could end my answer here but I'll go a step further because I am not just the source here but also the sole distributor.

b. I also consider the rarity of the item and the time & expense it costs to locate 1 chunky faceted cushion that I'd give a two thumbs up on which in fact will not be cut like an AVC (not to mention our exams for color and clarity which can eliminate a diamond from receiving lifetime policies even if the cut is fine). I mentioned in my previous post a sampling of shipping expenses that are realistic. So ... say for example a client is searching for a 1.5xct H VS2-SI1 and they are listed on the virtual inventory ranging from 7k to around 10k and say there are 45 diamonds available to us on the market that fall in this spectrum. How many of these 45 are in fact chunky? Of those that are chunky how many suffer from either extraneous leakage or perhaps too much heady/body obstruction? Finding what *I* consider a perfectly proportions chunky faceted cushion is short of near impossible. Any vendor selling cushions including Mark knows the frustration of sometimes just finding the facet structure much less certain specific optical performance. This is why when we optically designed these cushioncuhion they would be chunky cushions that had no parallel. A vendor (any vendor) can volunteer to pay shipping on 100 diamonds and never find one that equals what we are cutting.

So do I go through all of this to sell them at a markup that is less than what the government collects and a typical brokers price?

You should consider asking a broker of cushion cuts (there are plenty of them on the web) ... "How many chunky cushions would you have to pay for shipping on and call in from around the globe before you can find one cut just like this and be able to prove and demonstrate it?"

Add that expense to their existing markup and see if they can sell it for the prices I'm offering. I believe I am being fair.

Ironically we got an email from a client today asking why our prices on them were so low compared to cushion brands they were looking at locally.

What's beautiful about it all cushioncushion is if a person opts not for what we created, I have access to everything else out there available on the market and can show our clients meaningful information upon which to make an educated decision about and even compare those results alongside other diamonds we have published. We don't twist arms either way and are not locked into one business model. If a person wants to compare the best resources available for chunky cushions besides GOG cutters I can easily acquire and show a very detailed comparison at comparable PS vendor markup on any given virtual diamonds.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 12/9/2009 12:20:35 AM
Author: cushioncushion
Chunky Cushion Lover, thanks for your most informative post on pricing. I appears you have your finger on the pulse of the Pricescope market Wow...we both own stones from GOG and ERD. I don''t know about you...but I love them both! I assume you found your experience with both vendors highly satisfactory--I certainly did.

The side-by-side comparison is a great idea. Did you have to buy both stones to accomplish the face off?

I bought my GOG stone, and had the ERD one on memo.
It was tough for a chunkycushionlover to give back a GOG August Vintage but my Fiance trumps my opinion and after all the modern cushion was much bigger

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-shocking-final-diamond-choice-i-gave-to-my-fiance-which-one-would-you-pick.121154/

I think both vendors will send to a qualified appraisor with proper insurance on memo and you may only have to pay shipping initially.
For a 10K purchase its worth it spending $200 to do a comparison of 2 or 3 stones, especially if you are as picky as many here on PS.

 

[Collee]

Date: 12/9/2009 12:19:11 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 12/8/2009 11:27:10 PM
Author: Collee

Date: 12/8/2009 10:14:35 PM
Author: cushioncushion
So Collee, when someone posts about a stone he or she is considering, it's wrong to discuss value and alternatives? If that were the case, half the posts on here would have to be deleted. If the poster had asked about an ERD stone, I would have suggested they check out GOG as well. In retrospect, though, I probably should have pointed out that GOG's outstanding lifetime policies should be factored into any purchase decision.


P.S. I don't think it's rude at all to ask a large volume merchant about any policy or practice, including mark-ups. Is it rude to question the high mark-ups charged at some B&M stores, or does your rule only apply to Pricescope vendors?

It would absolutely be appropriate and relevant to offer alternative options. However, this was not the intention of the thread. Again, the OP was requesting confirmation of her stone choice (which she obviously adores and is beyond thrilled with). The questioning of the vendor's pricing policies were irrelevant and inappropriate.

To each his/her own but I would never ask a seller (of any goods) to disclose their pricing policies. IMO, it is readily apparent why some merchants (of any goods) offer items at a higher or lower price tag than their competitors.

No actually diamonds are the least apparent of any goods I know of to comparison shop or understand why some merchants offer items at a higher or lower pricetag.
I think Rhino has to constantly try to justify his pricing and explain it to consumers and he isn't as expert at this as he is at explaning Diamond optics.

I have been studying prices for months and still don't fully grasp the pricing of fancy diamonds. The typical line that Cushions can vary by thousands means

to me, that is way too general and I don't think any dealer really wants to get into this in more detail.

Mark at ERD informed me that Cushion Brilliants cost more than modified cushions because more rough is cut away extending the pavillion facets to the girdle this explains why CBs cost more than MCBs but a lot of the pricing is still quite inconsistent to me.

I find diamond vendors do a poor job of justifying their prices and much of the price formula is kept hidden from consumers.

Perhaps I misconstrued the questions posed in regards to the pricing structure but IMO the "how and why" is a relatively easy to comprehend. Although, we may not know the exact calculations but the basic premise and factors contributing are pretty much universal (regardless of the product offered). Although it was very forthcoming for Rhino to provide such a detailed explanation, the "time spent/labor and rarity of an item" are what I would consider, fundamental factors that attribute to the price of a product/good sold.

The “what” (exact markup value) as Kenny noted, is considered proprietary information and should IMO be respected as such.