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Thoughts on this F with med blue fluorescence?

Krista Williams

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Jan 17, 2018
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116
To be fair to BN, each time you change your mind they incur the actual fixed cost of return, but then in addition there’s a cost to all the time spent by advisors on the phone or on chat to you through the selection and later stages, plus all the staff (processing) time to obtain and return. All of this eats into their nett margins. Their business model is competitiveness via online platform with streamlined staff intervention....and you get the benefit of this in the pricing. To get additional and ongoing support above this comes at a higher price (e.g. other retailers/retail methods), so personally I can understand why they might try to draw this to a close at some point.
I completely get that, but their website states:
" We accept returns for refund or exchange within 30 days of shipment from our facility. We will send you a fully insured, free shipping label via email within one business day of your return request. Note: Two complimentary returns are allowed per customer, per year. "

" Diamonds purchased as part of our Blue Nile Diamond Upgrade Program may not be returned for credit, but can be exchanged within 30 days. "

The 1.05 H VS2 was the diamond that I upgraded to, so this was the first return.... (I paid for my original diamond to be sent to BN) I had the last diamond for 2 years... so its the first return in two years...... if the website says two complimentary returns, then there should be no question about the return policy for the F VVS2. If I dislike that diamond too... then I can understand, if I exchange, that is it......
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Trying to catch up after a week of being sick. Ugh.

Anyhow, I'm confident the F will be a performer. I think the chances of the medium fluor being an issue is slim, but it needs checked. You need a return period in case something doesn't check out.

More importantly, it's not okay for BN or any company to change their terms. I personally would push back on them for a 30 day return, as I believe that is what is owed to you. If they can't live with their terms, then they should allow you an option out. Perhaps just refund your money and you can part ways and buy elsewhere.

My concern is they do this crap once, and they will do it again. I don't like doing business with people that change terms.

If it's a matter of money, I would understand that. BN could easily address by stating, we can honor the 30 day policy but you will need to pay $X for shipping as this is your 2nd/3rd/4th/etc return.

I disagree with @mission1. Their business exists because of customers like you. They need to honor what they have told you via email, and also per their own damn website. The CSR's are a cost that will occur rather they are helping you or not. And I hardly doubt $50 shipping is going to collapse their business. At the end of the day, it's not the consumer's responsibility to ensure a business remains profitable.
 

mission1

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Krista - apologies I thought you’d already had two returns and this was a discretionary position beyond this. I probably had this in my head from the discussion of several options... rather than confirmed purchases.
 

mission1

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I disagree with @mission1. Their business exists because of customers like you. They need to honor what they have told you via email, and also per their own damn website. The CSR's are a cost that will occur rather they are helping you or not. And I hardly doubt $50 shipping is going to collapse their business. At the end of the day, it's not the consumer's responsibility to ensure a business remains profitable.
@sledge - as above, I’d thought a return of the latest diamond would amount to the third return rather than the second (I’m familiar with the policy having returned a diamond to BN myself very recently).

As an aside, the cost to BN of a return is not “$50 shipping”, as this overlooks full operational costs. My original point was that it’s easy for consumers not to appreciate that every transaction involves both direct and associated cost to a retailer. Sadly staff cost money, and at a business scale are not incurred “whether or not”; the staffing level is predicated on the average time cost, which is obviously influenced cumulatively by individual decisions.
 
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Krista Williams

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 17, 2018
Messages
116
I just heard from BN..... Apparently the return policy of two complimentary returns per year is not for diamond upgrades. She said they will give me the 30 day return period with the F VVS2, but if I don't like the next diamond I pick then I will need to spend DOUBLE to "upgrade" my diamond.

This diamond better be perfect so I can be done with BN!!!
 
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sledge

Ideal_Rock
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I just heard from BN..... Apparently the return policy of two complimentary returns per year is not for diamond upgrades. She said they will give me the 30 day return period with the F VVS2, but if I don't like the next diamond I pick then I will need to spend DOUBLE to "upgrade" my diamond.

This diamond better be perfect so I can be done with BN!!!
It's no secret....squeaky wheels get oiled. You need to make some noise, and move this issue up the chain of command. What BN is trying to pull is complete rubbish.

1. No where in their written policy does their diamond upgrade program say anything similar to what these "reps" are telling you. It doesn't matter what they WANT to do. It matters what is WRITTEN.

2. Their return policy says 2 complimentary returns per customer, per year. It doesn't say it's capped to new customers, but just customers. You are a customer. A very loyal one that wishes to upgrade. You haven't exceeded 2 returns, but if you were to do so then a logical assumption would be any quantity of returns exceeding 2 would no longer be complimentary....well until the following year, then you get 2 more free ones.

3. Continuing to search for something about being capped on diamond upgrades I found a tidbit in the Non-Refundable Policy section. Here BN specifically says an upgraded diamond can't be returned for a credit, but instead can be exchanged within 30 days.

I'm not a lawyer but perhaps @MollyMalone can weigh in. If push came to shove, I think you could get a ruling in your favor.

Not that I'm suggesting you lawyer up, but smart people always know their options and more importantly the rules of the game they must play by.

I think BN is trying to bully you, and I hope you take precautions to protect yourself. I certainly wouldn't agree, verbally or written, with any terms other than is written on their website and/or provided to you as documentation when you bought the original stone.


CaptureBNUpgrade.PNG


CaptureBNReturn.PNG


CaptureBNNonRefund.PNG


Including current hyperlinks to support screen caps from BN's website:

 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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@sledge - as above, I’d thought a return of the latest diamond would amount to the third return rather than the second (I’m familiar with the policy having returned a diamond to BN myself very recently).

As an aside, the cost to BN of a return is not “$50 shipping”, as this overlooks full operational costs. My original point was that it’s easy for consumers not to appreciate that every transaction involves both direct and associated cost to a retailer. Sadly staff cost money, and at a business scale are not incurred “whether or not”; the staffing level is predicated on the average time cost, which is obviously influenced cumulatively by individual decisions.
I get there was misunderstanding on the number of returns. No biggie.

Also, I agree there are more cost than just the "$50 shipping" fee involved. However, I stand by my opinion it's not the consumer's responsibility to keep a company profitable. BN is a big enough player to know how the game works.
 

Krista Williams

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 17, 2018
Messages
116
Thank you so much EVERYONE for all the input on this thread! Special thanks for @sledge for the post about BN policy..... I am glad at that point, I had not yet replied to the last email from them...... When I was replying late last I had a look to see what "Terms&Conditions" they possibly sent in my email... I seem to remember having to agree to them..... I sent them a copy of this...... Capture.JPG

BTW, if anyone is looking at dates and feeling confused... I placed my order for the diamond upgrade LD12566890 on Nov 29th, and it shipped out Dec 22nd... arrived to me on Dec 27th, and I shipped it back to them on January 15th, and they acknowledged receipt of the diamond back at their facility on Jan 17th, and its apparently still processing....
 
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OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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@OoohShiny do you know for instance whether 57 table works best with 75 or 80 lgf? Or what crown pavilion combos Do? Thanks!!
So I drafted the below a few days ago, got distracted, left the tab open, got befuddled by the science in later posts in another thread... :lol:

I think it might still be useful but apologies for the slow reply and if it isn't!!




As you'll see in Garry's attachment above, there are many different combinations of crown angle, pavilion angle, table size...


Generally speaking, the lower the LGF number, the shorter the facets and the 'fatter' the arrows. MRBs have LGFs of 75-80%, so 75 is fatter than 80.

Shorter (75%) LGFs give bigger pavilion facets under the table, which means larger pavilion facet reflections and therefore the opportunity for larger fans of dispersion (the fans of coloured rainbows), which means you are more likely to see 'fire' when the dispersion fan (when it is larger than your pupil) passes over your eye and you only see one section (colour) of the fan.

Longer / 80% LGFs create smaller facets and therefore give a more 'splintery' look to the diamond than 'fatter' facets do, and may give less 'fire' (because the eye will see the whole rainbow dispersion fan and add all the colours together back into 'white').


Smaller tables mean larger crown facets, which increases the opportunity for dispersion fans, and the increased angle of a higher crown does the same.

Therefore, short LGFs, small tables and high(er) crowns can all help create more fire in a diamond.

Caution is needed, though - as a small table and short LGFs together can mean most of the visible facets under the table can be the LGFs (only), if they are all 'off' or showing contrast at the same time, it can lead to a stone with a dark centre.
 

Krista Williams

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2018
Messages
116
Longer / 80% LGFs create smaller facets and therefore give a more 'splintery' look to the diamond than 'fatter' facets do, and may give less 'fire' (because the eye will see the whole rainbow dispersion fan and add all the colours together back into 'white')
This is the only thing that bothers me about the F VVS2. I LOVE FIRE!!!!! The H VS2 has amazing fire ☹
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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To add more about LGF's, keep in mind GIA rounds to the nearest 5%.

This means a reported value of 75 can range from 73-77 actual. Whereas a reported value of 80 can range from 78-82.

Without a SARIN report you can eyeball the fatness of the arrows to gauge actuals but it's a guesstimate. Also, different sized tables with the same size LGF's can give the visual illusion one set of LGF's is smaller/larger than the other.

Coincidentally most super ideals have 77-78 LGF as they are a good balance of qualities. Occasionally you will find a 76 or 79 on a super ideal.

Like many here, I prefer those big fat arrows but I did see some the other day that looked bad. I'm guessing they were 73 actuals and with the shallow angles and obstruction the stone had too much contrast, at least for my preferences.

Oddly enough if your 80 LGF is sitting at 78 actual, you'd be well balanced IMO.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Took a screen cap of the F. I'd guess actuals are close to 79. Agree @Karl_K?

Screenshot_20200122-204953_Chrome.jpg
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
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Took a screen cap of the F. I'd guess actuals are close to 79. Agree @Karl_K?

Screenshot_20200122-204953_Chrome.jpg
A quick look didn't see the angles and % because as you know that can change the appearance.
The reality is by eye you can't get precise but you can classify them some what reliably.
It is in the 77-80 class is my guess.
The classes
74 and below
75-76
77-80
80+
This is not anything official, its just what I use.
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
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So I drafted the below a few days ago, got distracted, left the tab open, got befuddled by the science in later posts in another thread... :lol:

I think it might still be useful but apologies for the slow reply and if it isn't!!




As you'll see in Garry's attachment above, there are many different combinations of crown angle, pavilion angle, table size...


Generally speaking, the lower the LGF number, the shorter the facets and the 'fatter' the arrows. MRBs have LGFs of 75-80%, so 75 is fatter than 80.

Shorter (75%) LGFs give bigger pavilion facets under the table, which means larger pavilion facet reflections and therefore the opportunity for larger fans of dispersion (the fans of coloured rainbows), which means you are more likely to see 'fire' when the dispersion fan (when it is larger than your pupil) passes over your eye and you only see one section (colour) of the fan.

Longer / 80% LGFs create smaller facets and therefore give a more 'splintery' look to the diamond than 'fatter' facets do, and may give less 'fire' (because the eye will see the whole rainbow dispersion fan and add all the colours together back into 'white').


Smaller tables mean larger crown facets, which increases the opportunity for dispersion fans, and the increased angle of a higher crown does the same.

Therefore, short LGFs, small tables and high(er) crowns can all help create more fire in a diamond.

Caution is needed, though - as a small table and short LGFs together can mean most of the visible facets under the table can be the LGFs (only), if they are all 'off' or showing contrast at the same time, it can lead to a stone with a dark centre.
Keep in mind that is not written in stone and I dont really agree with it.
They are only talking about flashes off the mains.
The mains do not drive light return as much as the lowers in a mrb.

What I consider the optimal lgf% range changes with the angle combination and table size.
It just so happens that the range that many branded super ideal cutters work well with a wide range of lgf%.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Proportions...

Screenshot_20200122-214852_Drive.jpg
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
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As near as I can line it up in DiamCalc im getting some closer to 78 and some closer to 79.
Which brings me to another point even on the best cut diamonds the lgf% is never actually just one number it varies around the stone.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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As near as I can line it up in DiamCalc im getting some closer to 78 and some closer to 79.
Which brings me to another point even on the best cut diamonds the lgf% is never actually just one number it varies around the stone.
Thanks @Karl_K.

So for the exact stone proportions the arrows are about as fat as possible for a reported 80 value.

And in reality, the stone has well balanced LGF that would be similar to most super ideals.

If seeking fat arrows this is about as ideal as you get with 80 LGFs. Assuming no twisting or cheating of course.
 

Krista Williams

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2018
Messages
116
The hardest part....the wait, lol.

Can't wait to see pics and hear your report on it.
My husband is home with the kids today as the school board is striking... if it comes before lunch I am going to beg him to bring it to me LOL....... otherwise... I think I am skipping the gym tonight so I can go straight home!! I know the F colour, and VVS2 clarity is overkill but I am SOOOOO EXCITED!
 

SimoneDi

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My husband is home with the kids today as the school board is striking... if it comes before lunch I am going to beg him to bring it to me LOL....... otherwise... I think I am skipping the gym tonight so I can go straight home!! I know the F colour, and VVS2 clarity is overkill but I am SOOOOO EXCITED!
Haha don’t skip the gym it will be there after :lol:
 

Krista Williams

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 17, 2018
Messages
116
I just got home from the gym and first looks in my kitchen, I LOVE IT!!!!!!!! Obviously, I want to check it out in other lighting conditions... Sadly it was soooooooooo sunny here today... It's supposed to get sooooo cold tonight but I hope we get sun again.

Here's just one picture for now... You all know I'm terrible with the pics.. 20200129_182133.jpg
 

Krista Williams

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 17, 2018
Messages
116
Still loving the diamond, but I've noticed something. I'm going to clean the ring when we get home from running an errand. I hope that fixes the problem I'm seeing.

I had told Blue Nile that when I recieved the first upgrade the "tapers" looked like one was longer then the other and closer to the diamond then the other. They said they didn't do anything to my original ring except change out the diamond..... So I asked them to look at that while they have the ring back. It's clear that they gave me a whole new ring...... Am I seeing some parts that didn't get polished? Is that dull dead gold? Screenshot_20200129-193011_Gallery.jpg
 

Krista Williams

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 17, 2018
Messages
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I actually can not handle the fire this diamond has in my kitchen... I don't know if it has ideal proportions and I haven't seen the ASET (was thinking of asking a local jeweller if she has an ASET scope) but this diamond is amazing. It's a keeper! I would still like to check it out in the sunlight to 100% rule out any negative effects from the fluorescence...

I was taking another video and this happened... I'm pretty excited I finally saw arrows with my own eyes! 20200130_201051.jpg
 

sledge

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I actually can not handle the fire this diamond has in my kitchen... I don't know if it has ideal proportions and I haven't seen the ASET (was thinking of asking a local jeweller if she has an ASET scope) but this diamond is amazing. It's a keeper! I would still like to check it out in the sunlight to 100% rule out any negative effects from the fluorescence...

I was taking another video and this happened... I'm pretty excited I finally saw arrows with my own eyes! 20200130_201051.jpg
Wow, congratulations...the stone looks amazing!!!

Although I'm not buying a stone having too much fire, lol. Reminds me of a country song one of my buddies used to play all the time.


In regards to an ASET, you can buy your own scope for about $50 from either AGS directly, or from David Atlas, who is also a PS forum member.


And you were curious about ideal proportions. I think it falls within the range. Looking at the older 2009 AGS proportions charts, it shows to be in ideal territory. Also, looking at the ACA specs on WF's page, your stone appears to meet specs with exception to them requiring the stone first have AGS000 certification. Also ACA would require passing IS, ASET and H&A images, which we don't know how yours fairs yet.

CaptureKW.PNG

CaptureWF.PNG

What does baffle me is AGS took down the older 2009 proportions charts and have replaced them with new "cut guidelines". The ones available closest to your stone is 6mm round, 50 stars, 80 LGF's and 3.5 girdle -- all which your stone has reported on the GIA cert.



In this set of cut guidelines, it looks like the stone would meet AGS2 if the proportions worked out exactly as the GIA report states. The issue being we know that GIA not only rounds but averages the actual values that are then condensed to just a single number on the report.

So I'd take this with a grain of salt. Although my cut predictor uses the older charts, it gives you a larger box where the cut may actually land when you account for those variances. Depending what a 3D scan reported back, the stone could still slip into AGS0 territory.

CaptureNewAGS.PNG

Long story short, I'd say your stone is ideal, especially if your heart loves it. Don't focus too much on numbers, as they can be meaningless and ruin your happiness. You made a good pick IMO.
 
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sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Oops I entered the wrong crown value in my cut calculator. I had 34.5 and yours is 34. Please ignore that part of my post. Sorry. :(2

The older 2009 proportions is reflecting exactly "excellent" but when you go out in each direction to account for actual values and precision faceting you can see there is still a chance it lands in ideal.

Here's the update version with the correct crown angle.

CaptureWF2.PNG
 
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