this seems awfully high for a heated sapphire....

[rparker1998]

Isn't 400.00 a bit extreme for this? Pretty color yes - pretty size yes - certified yes - but it's HEATED....can't you find unheated stones for the same price or less?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380273122217&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

*no offense to anyone who may be bidding on this item from PS*

 

[Arcadian]

no its not high at all.
My blue trillion was slightly more and was also heated (AIGS cert)

The cert for that stone...well.. there's been a lot of discussion about those certs and if they're real or not.

-A

 

[chrono]

It depends; there is still unresolved debate whether the SLP lab exists or doesn't. Then the next step is whether the SLP lab memo is verifiable.

 

[arjunajane]

hi parker, have to be honest I am finding this post rather confusing, especially since your tagline indicates you are taking gemology training courses. *If* everything checked out on this stone (which could be debateable) and *If* the auction closes at $400 (which it likely wont)- my feeling would be this would be considered a very good price for a sapphire of this size. If you are able to find unheated sapphires (verifiable) for the same or less cost per ct -well, I'm sure many would like to know where
If you dont mind to share your POV and opinions, I would be interested to ask the following: do they discuss gemstone value and pricing as part of your training? And do they teach about industry accepted treatment of gems such as heating of sapphires? Of course, please feel free to share only what you wish-I'm just basically curious the motivation behind the thread

 

[rparker1998]

hi parker, have to be honest I am finding this post rather confusing, especially since your tagline indicates you are taking gemology training courses. *If* everything checked out on this stone (which could be debateable) and *If* the auction closes at $400 (which it likely wont)- my feeling would be this would be considered a very good price for a sapphire of this size. If you are able to find unheated sapphires (verifiable) for the same or less cost per ct -well, I'm sure many would like to know where
If you dont mind to share your POV and opinions, I would be interested to ask the following: do they discuss gemstone value and pricing as part of your training? And do they teach about industry accepted treatment of gems such as heating of sapphires? Of course, please feel free to share only what you wish-I'm just basically curious the motivation behind the thread

Arjunajane; Yes I am taking courses - just finishing up my AJP and I am still very new to the industry. I find your tone to be a tad condecending to be honest.....but that is neither here nor there. TO answer your questions:

I have had an overview of treatments and stone value/pricing but nothing indepth. I know that heating a sapphire is acceptable - just as heating of a tanzanite is. Just seems to me that the over-all concensious is when you can get a stone UNHEATED, it is better and will command a higher price tag. This stone started at a very low price and then shot up to 400.00 so that is why I was so shocked - that's all.

It was more of a question of is someone getting ripped off for paying that much or is it a fair price....(not me)

 

[chrono]

An unheated stone isn’t always necessarily better or will command a higher price than a heated stone. A whole host of other factors come into play but the main determining factor is colour. If the two stones are equal in colour (hue, saturation and tone), then yes, the unheated will command the higher price. This price disparity increases as the size increases, fineness of colour increases, and etc. In short, a very finely coloured large sapphire that is heated (heat only, no diffusion) can still cost hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

 

[LD]

I'm sorry but I'm with AJ on this one. When I saw your heading I thought that the stone would be half a carat or so. I opened the link and it's over 4ct! If you can get a decent UNHEATED 4ct sapphire for under $400 I would love to know where???? There's absolutely no way. 4ct sapphires, heated or unheated will normally be much more expensive than this.

What I'm confused about is that this "lab" has cert'ed this gem as a "Padparadscha" and state that it's been heat treated. What it doesn't say is whether it's been BE diffused. Looking at the colour of the gem, the size, the clarity, and the price being asked I would most definitely put this on the "one not to buy" pile as I'd be very very very surprised if this hadn't had some form of aggressive treatment.

 

[Richard M.]

What I'm confused about is that this "lab" has cert'ed this gem as a "Padparadscha" and state that it's been heat treated. What it doesn't say is whether it's been BE diffused. Looking at the colour of the gem, the size, the clarity, and the price being asked I would most definitely put this on the "one not to buy" pile as I'd be very very very surprised if this hadn't had some form of aggressive treatment.

LD has "nailed" the major concern with this stone. I don't know what the eventual bid will be (currently $500 and that would be a bargain if no BE). But it's very expensive for a beryllium-diffused stone. My advice would be to proceed very cautiously and make any purchase contingent on a report indicating no BE treatment from a recognized lab like GIA Bangkok or AIGS. I think both are equipped to make that determination.

Richard M. (Rick Martin)

 

[chrono]

I thought that AIGS no longer does testing for diffusion? I know they sent out stones to GIA in the past for diffusion testing. What I do know is that testing for diffusion is out of the scope of the normal testing (it requires an added fee) so just because it comes with a cert stating heat only, it doesn’t necessarily prove that it has not been diffused.

 

[colorluvr]

It depends; there is still unresolved debate whether the SLP lab exists or doesn't. Then the next step is whether the SLP lab memo is verifiable.

Per information that I was given (after I asked) by someone who used to live in Thailand is that the SLP lab exists, but they only speak Thai and only deal with Thai people.

"it does exist albeit a small lab - I would prefer to use one with a website for sure. Such as AIGS or something. The prob in Chanthaburi is there are only 2 labs, SLP which is open 6 days a week and BGL only Friday and Saturday".

He told me that the problem with them (in addition to being quite small) is that there isn't any way for a buyer to verify the certs because they don't have a website and often don't answer their phone (and only speak Thai if they do), but that all of the stones with SLP certs that he has had checked out else where (by other labs) have turned out to be as reported, but because they can't be verified he wasn't going to use them any more (apparently he used them a couple of times a while back).

He told me this about their location for anyone who is familiar with Chanthaburi "They are located if anyone is interested...in 'Gem town' the well known rough dealership in Chanthaburi."

So it appears they do exist, but that doesn't really do any one any good if the certs can't be verified.

 

[colorluvr]

I thought that AIGS no longer does testing for diffusion? I know they sent out stones to GIA in the past for diffusion testing. What I do know is that testing for diffusion is out of the scope of the normal testing (it requires an added fee) so just because it comes with a cert stating heat only, it doesn’t necessarily prove that it has not been diffused.

The problem for me (and I am one of those who had previously purchased a "heat only" sapphire from this seller with a (non-GIA) cert before I found PS) is that I have no way to really know what kind of heat treatment it received. The stone is already mounted and I'm not ready to spend the money to send it to GIA to find out right now, so I just have to hope

I emailed the seller when I got the stone and she told me that she never sells BE treated stones without disclosing it, but of course she doesn't have any way of knowing if it's really BE treated or not without the proper certification.

She said my stone didn't show any of the "normal" signs of BE heating, but once again, that doesn't prove anything..... so for me, I no longer will spend a large sum of money for a heat treated sapphire (no matter who it's from) without a certificate from a lab that can check for BE heating.

It's my understanding that most legitimate labs can tell if it shows no signs of any heat treatment, so now if I am going to spend much $$$$, I will only buy certified unheated sapphires unless they have a cert from a lab that can test for BE treatment.... so to answer your question IMHO, it's not a lot of money if it indeed has only been heated and hasn't received any other treatment, but because you can't be sure of that, I'd pass.

 

[chrono]

With SLP being a small lab, I doubt they have the equipment or expertise to test for diffusion, which would be my main concern for this particular stone. Thanks for the update, Colorluvr.

 

[colorluvr]

With SLP being a small lab, I doubt they have the equipment or expertise to test for diffusion, which would be my main concern for this particular stone. Thanks for the update, Colorluvr.

I totally agree!!!

 

[LD]

Forget the Lab and testing for a minute.

If you were selling a natural heated only (or argument's sake) sapphire that was over 4ct and you marketed it as a Padparadscha would you auction it without a reserve???? That for me tells me that either (a) the Vendor doesn't know gemstones/value or (b) has so much inventory that he/she is happy to let go a few "lost leader" gemstones to get more business - highly unlikely or (c) knows exactly what he/she has and therefore is willing to take a chance that there will be a few gullible people looking at the auction!

 

[chrono]

Forget the Lab and testing for a minute.

If you were selling a natural heated only (or argument's sake) sapphire that was over 4ct and you marketed it as a Padparadscha would you auction it without a reserve???? That for me tells me that either (a) the Vendor doesn't know gemstones/value or (b) has so much inventory that he/she is happy to let go a few "lost leader" gemstones to get more business - highly unlikely or (c) knows exactly what he/she has and therefore is willing to take a chance that there will be a few gullible people looking at the auction!

LD,
I agree with you that this sale has too many red flags to be under consideration for purchase.

 

[Michael_E]

LD has "nailed" the major concern with this stone. I don't know what the eventual bid will be (currently $500 and that would be a bargain if no BE). But it's very expensive for a beryllium-diffused stone. (Rick Martin)

Hi Rick,
I keep hearing over and over that BE heated stones are very inexpensive, but I can't find any sources for them in order to compare pricing in larger sizes like this. There's one rough supplier that I know of who sells BE treated sapphires and they are less expensive than natural but not cheap either by any means. So here's my question, do you have some source or sources that are easily referred to for understanding pricing on BE treated sapphires, particularly in this sort of size, or is your comment driven by prices that you've seen in your meanderings throughout the gem world? It would be nice to have a few accurate sources that would allow one to gauge prices more readily. I just can't imagine someone taking a clear sapphire of any size and treating it, since it would seem to reduce it's value dramatically...just the opposite of their intent.

This next comment is sure to get some replies from the many of you...what's wrong with BE treated sapphire? I like it. The prices seem to be very low, the colors permanent, go all the way through the stone and are very attractive. I can't see anything bad about them as long as the buyer knows what they are getting. I sit here comparing the cost of these things to the outrageous costs of a synthetic like moissanite, and I just wonder why all the fuss about being BE treated sapphire? Is it just the idea of someone not being told what they are getting or is there some other reason not to like these?

 

[serenitydiamonds]

4 cts for under 400?!? I'd be scared.... that's suspiciously cheap.

--Joshua

 

[brandy_z28]

LD has "nailed" the major concern with this stone. I don't know what the eventual bid will be (currently $500 and that would be a bargain if no BE). But it's very expensive for a beryllium-diffused stone. (Rick Martin)

Hi Rick,
I keep hearing over and over that BE heated stones are very inexpensive, but I can't find any sources for them in order to compare pricing in larger sizes like this. There's one rough supplier that I know of who sells BE treated sapphires and they are less expensive than natural but not cheap either by any means. So here's my question, do you have some source or sources that are easily referred to for understanding pricing on BE treated sapphires, particularly in this sort of size, or is your comment driven by prices that you've seen in your meanderings throughout the gem world? It would be nice to have a few accurate sources that would allow one to gauge prices more readily. I just can't imagine someone taking a clear sapphire of any size and treating it, since it would seem to reduce it's value dramatically...just the opposite of their intent.

This next comment is sure to get some replies from the many of you...what's wrong with BE treated sapphire? I like it. The prices seem to be very low, the colors permanent, go all the way through the stone and are very attractive. I can't see anything bad about them as long as the buyer knows what they are getting. I sit here comparing the cost of these things to the outrageous costs of a synthetic like moissanite, and I just wonder why all the fuss about being BE treated sapphire? Is it just the idea of someone not being told what they are getting or is there some other reason not to like these?

I've noticed a few BE treated sapphires and rubies on multicolour.com if you want to check some prices. They aren't what I'd call "cheap" on there either. They are cheaper than what an unheated/untreated stone would sell for but still far from free. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with BE treated sapphires as long as that treatment is disclosed. It's a good alternative for some.

 

[arjunajane]

hi parker, have to be honest I am finding this post rather confusing, especially since your tagline indicates you are taking gemology training courses. *If* everything checked out on this stone (which could be debateable) and *If* the auction closes at $400 (which it likely wont)- my feeling would be this would be considered a very good price for a sapphire of this size. If you are able to find unheated sapphires (verifiable) for the same or less cost per ct -well, I'm sure many would like to know where
If you dont mind to share your POV and opinions, I would be interested to ask the following: do they discuss gemstone value and pricing as part of your training? And do they teach about industry accepted treatment of gems such as heating of sapphires? Of course, please feel free to share only what you wish-I'm just basically curious the motivation behind the thread

Arjunajane; Yes I am taking courses - just finishing up my AJP and I am still very new to the industry. I find your tone to be a tad condecending to be honest.....but that is neither here nor there. TO answer your questions:

I have had an overview of treatments and stone value/pricing but nothing indepth. I know that heating a sapphire is acceptable - just as heating of a tanzanite is. Just seems to me that the over-all concensious is when you can get a stone UNHEATED, it is better and will command a higher price tag. This stone started at a very low price and then shot up to 400.00 so that is why I was so shocked - that's all.

It was more of a question of is someone getting ripped off for paying that much or is it a fair price....(not me)

tone is hard to decipher from the written word -for the record, I wasnt being condescending. I am though glad you've started the thread as its developed into an interesting discussion. Thanks for answering my questions.

 

[T L]

4 cts for under 400?!? I'd be scared.... that's suspiciously cheap.

--Joshua

Probably be-treated, and if so, $400 is too high.

 

[rparker1998]

No hard feelings Aarjunajane

And ya'all are right... I did miss it was 4 CTS!!!! how I missed that lovely tidbit...is beyond me. But still an interesting topic seems to have come up of it

<--wishes she had that kind of dough to lay down for a stone.

 

[colorluvr]

This is an excerpt from Gems and Gemology - Summer 2003. The entire article (which is quite technical) can be read here:

http://lgdl.gia.edu/pdfs/su03a1.pdf

I think this summary of the article sums up the problem with undisclosed BE treatment, in that is it more a matter of knowing what you are buying than there being a "problem" with BE treated stones.

"The implications of Be diffusion to the entire gem community (from miner to consumer) are quite far reaching. It appears that virtually any color of ruby and sapphire can be reproduced by the Be-diffusion process. Transparent corundum actually is a common commodity. Only corundum in attractive colors and color saturation levels is rare. There are large deposits of sapphire that can produce large stones in unmarketable colors. Conventional heat treatment can improve only a very small percentage of such material. However, it appears that much, if not most, of this material can be Be diffused to produce attractive colors (figure 60). We have observed that Be diffusion beneficially affects 50–95% of mine run material, not just a small portion. Thus, if we cannot develop a simple low-cost detection method, gem sapphire will become as common as blue topaz, supply will exceed demand, and prices will fall radically, damaging the entire gem trade.

Today, there is no simple, low-cost alternative to SIMS or LA-ICPMS, but we are working on the problem and strongly encourage others to do so as well. Technology will always advance, and attempting to slow or stop it is as rewarding as trying to sweep back the sea with a broom. However, as a community we need to come together to understand each new process as it is developed, and bring it to the
gem market with full disclosure, allowing an informed marketplace to determine value. Only in this way can our miners, treaters, dealers, and jewelers prosper. Only in this way will the consumer show us the trust and support we have enjoyed in the past."

(Bolding/underlining/italics were put there by me)

 

[stepcutgirl]

I sure hope that's not a high price! If it is I've been had!

 

[LD]

Michael

In the UK there are several TV/internet jewellery channels and they sell sapphires (loose and set) that are BE diffused. These stones and pieces of jewellery are cheap compared to heated only/unheated sapphires. Of course they don't scream during the sales pitch that the sapphires are BE diffused but a quick look at their enhancements page says it all! I've seen 2ct items upwards. Admittedly a 4ct is harder to find than a 2ct. This is based on my experience of watching last year when I was off work recuperating from an illness so had time on my hands! It may well have changed now but certainly the items were cheap enough to arose suspicion. At the weekend, when I have some time, I'll spend a while browsing their website/watching the TV to see if I can find some examples.

In terms of why I personally don't like BE diffused stones? I believe it's cheating. Whilst it creates some amazing colour gemstones, for me it's a bit like coated topaz, it's not what nature intended! Heating only I can cope with but BE diffusion is a no-no for me. Then again, I'm a gemstone snob and probably represent a very small minority of the gemstone buying world! I'm quite sure that people jump at the chance to have a very pretty gemstone on their hand and wouldn't care if it had been nuked to within an inch of its life!

 

[brandy_z28]

Here's an example of a BE treated Ruby. http://www.multicolour.com/detail/?1199838542 'lil pricey...

 

[colorluvr]

Here is an example of an ebay seller reporting that this sapphire is BE heated with a low starting price.

http://cgi.ebay.com/BANKAJA-THAILAND-PUREST-TOP-YELLOW-SAPPHIRE-1-75-CT-/120625417787?pt=Loose_Gemstones_1&hash=item1c15d5ce3b

 

[Richard M.]

So here's my question, do you have some source or sources that are easily referred to for understanding pricing on BE treated sapphires, particularly in this sort of size, or is your comment driven by prices that you've seen in your meanderings throughout the gem world? It would be nice to have a few accurate sources that would allow one to gauge prices more readily. I just can't imagine someone taking a clear sapphire of any size and treating it, since it would seem to reduce it's value dramatically...just the opposite of their intent.

This next comment is sure to get some replies from the many of you...what's wrong with BE treated sapphire? I like it. The prices seem to be very low, the colors permanent, go all the way through the stone and are very attractive. I can't see anything bad about them as long as the buyer knows what they are getting. I sit here comparing the cost of these things to the outrageous costs of a synthetic like moissanite, and I just wonder why all the fuss about being BE treated sapphire? Is it just the idea of someone not being told what they are getting or is there some other reason not to like these?

Question 1: I've been offered BE-treated sapphire now and then, especially back when it was "new" on the market. At that time prices were more in line with "luxury" synthetics (flux/hydrothermal types) than with heat-only corundums. I read something about a year ago that indicated BE-treated stones were finding their own market niche and prices were increasing. I've avoided the stuff since my policy is to sell only untreated gems when possible, so my pricing info is pretty anecdotal.

As for treating "clear" sapphires, my understanding is that the yellows and pads result from treating very nondescript (non-clear) sapphire from Songea, TZ. The stuff used for treatment is pretty ugly as it occurs in nature.

Question 2: Yes, BE-treated sapphires are attractive and, no, there's nothing basically "wrong" with them as long as they're marketed honestly at market prices. I do foresee a problem down the line when they change hands. There's a human tendency to gild the lily a bit and just as "Grandma's very valuable 5-carat ruby" often turns out to be a Verneuil flame-fusion synthetic, so many "heirloom" pads will likely turn out to be BE stones of low value.

My objection to BE-treated stones is the same as LD's. Heat-only stones merely duplicate what happens in nature. Beryllium is not normally a significant part of corundum's natural make-up and adding it to change a stone's color is to me the same as dyeing or coating a gem to achieve a non-natural color.

LD: Now that I think of it AIGS may not have the equipment to detect BE treatment. GIA does as does AGL in the U.S.

Richard M. (Rick Martin)

 

[Michael_E]

In terms of why I personally don't like BE diffused stones? I believe it's cheating. Whilst it creates some amazing colour gemstones, for me it's a bit like coated topaz, it's not what nature intended!

I don't think that nature "intended" stones to be cut, us to be wearing clothes or to be flying around in the sky at several hundred miles per hour either. As for coated topaz, well it's coated and the coating can be knocked off, so it's a whole different thing, (in my mind lower than colored glass since it has no durability. I can relate to being a gemstone snob, since I feel that way once in a while. The problem comes when one wants to be a snob on a budget. The two just don't fit together very well, since it's nearly impossible to get top grade goods at bargain prices. I just find it curious that many people make comments about BE treated sapphires being dirt cheap, even when they're large and clean. I haven't seen that, (not that I've looked very hard), and am wondering how peoples opinions get formed as far as price. I am not saying that those ideas are not well founded, but I am very interested in how people make decisions about what constitutes a "good" price and what they see as overpriced or even a "rip off".

 

[T L]

Michael,
Have you seen the material they diffuse? It's basically road gravel, so maybe for some people $400 would be a fair price for a be-treated stone, but IMHO, and personally for me (I should have added that to my comment above), I wouldn't pay $4/ct. Heating generally drives off unwanted modifiers, but diffusion is a complete alteration of the original material. To me, charging that much money for a be-treated stone is like painting a brick with gold leaf and selling it as a solid gold brick. It's garbage that is altered to look pretty as well as convincing.

 

[colorluvr]

This is a picture of four "orangish / goldish" natural sapphires that I have purchased over the last three years. The first three were purchased before I even knew what BE heating was (three years ago) and the last (lower left hand corner) being an unheated certified by a reputable lab (and cert verified) sapphire that I just bought.

I can't say that the unheated one is any prettier than the other three, and in fact the one in the upper left hand corner (dark spot isn't visable with naked eye) actually shows a bit of pink sometimes and I was told it could possibly qualify as a "pad" colored stone even though it wasn't sold as such. The one in the upper right hand corner is probably most definitely BE heated and the other two - who knows. They were sold as "heated" and didn't state what kind of heating one way or the other.

Fortunately I didn't pay much for the first three (all of them are under two carats) and got a heck of a deal (I think) for the 3.19 ct unheated one (lower left hand corner).

My point is that I didn't pay much for three of the four stones, so I don't really care if they are BE heated or not (although I hope the two little ovals aren't).

I did pay a bit for a yellow sapphire that I was verbally "guaranteed" wasn't BE heated, but now I fear might have been and THAT irritates me because I was purposely mislead. I still think I got a pretty stone (5.42ct for under $100 a carat) for an OK price, but I believe the seller KNEW that the stone could be BE heated and that the lab that certified it couldn't detect that kind of treatment, but chose to mislead me because (at the time) I didn't know that particular lab couldn't detect BE treatment and took her word for it. I knew just enough to ask if it was BE heated, but not enough to know that that lab NOR the seller could guarantee that - I know better now.

I don't know however, what a nice clean, possibly BE heated yellow sapphire should sell for? I can find out the retail selling price for heat only sapphires via an online evaluation site (gemval), but I don't know where to go to find what a "fair price" is for a nice looking, reasonably well cut, BE heated stone.