The issue

[Autumnovember]

ALSO. Can I just say that I would RATHER DIE than ever let on to someone that I was jealous of their ring, or anything else. DIE. Like, I don't care if I was having tea with the Queen of England, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I might, MIGHT, have a teensy bit of a pity party in the privacy of my own bathroom or someplace LATER. But to make an ungracious, uncomplimentary remark to anyone about anything of theirs is the height of rude and I would rather poke my own eyes out than let on that I was anything but as totally awesomely cool as I am.

Yes, I have to completely agree regarding SHOWING jealousy.

I do understand why she is jealous. I really and truly do. I guess it hurts me so much because I can only do so much to help her financial situation. SO did give them that 15,000 loan so I'm hoping that this helps them out a lot (according to BIL...this is where most of the debt is stemming from). My sister HAS been on the other end of the spectrum because BIL used to be well off as well before the real estate market went down hill. I was even over her house and told her that if she needed me to give them money weekly from my paycheck I would do it. I have never really talked to my sister about any of this. I've always just tried to act like it rolled off my back in front of her. It's when I am alone or with my mom that I have really spoken about my feelings. I doubt she has any idea that she's been causing me this much hurt. As I said before, I cut out a lot of people in my life. It has been a weeding out process for me, which has been difficult to say the least but also a blessing in disguise. I'm slowly forming a very tight knit group of friends that are genuinely good people who support me and SO fully. Also, I know I'm painting a picture of her being this nasty, awful, immature person. But she isn't. This is what gets me. SHE is *NOT* this. She was never jealous of anyone. She was always happy with everything she had and counted her blessings for having a phenomenal husband, great kids, and a family that loves her unconditionally. She is one of the kindest people that I know so her behavior has been shocking to me. I know that it is an internal struggle for her and she hates feeling the way she does. I remember having a conversation about jealousy in general and I slipped a comment and said "you never used to be jealous of anyone...what has changed?" She never really answered what changed and what has made her this way but she did tell me she hated having to feel jealous of anyone (friends at the time). I know that I should really talk to her about this but I don't want to anger her or upset her...its such a touchy subject. I feel helpless because I desperately want to get her out of this rut and I have no idea how, which is why I'm really banking on that 15000 loan helping them tremendously so they can live their lives normally again.

Okay, here's the thing: you need to disentangle yourself from her finances. No more talking to her about money, offering her an allowance (ouch! That would sting like hell if my little sister offered me that), nothing. If your SO and your BIL want to work something out privately, fine. But get yourself out of their bank account. It'll help.

BIL came to me and asked me for the loan so I was inevitably involved in the money situation. I offered them money every week to ease the situation because she knows I would do anything for her. Of course they declined, but I offered it after she told me some really personal things that have been going on in terms of money and how it has been affecting them.

 

[princesss]

ALSO. Can I just say that I would RATHER DIE than ever let on to someone that I was jealous of their ring, or anything else. DIE. Like, I don't care if I was having tea with the Queen of England, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I might, MIGHT, have a teensy bit of a pity party in the privacy of my own bathroom or someplace LATER. But to make an ungracious, uncomplimentary remark to anyone about anything of theirs is the height of rude and I would rather poke my own eyes out than let on that I was anything but as totally awesomely cool as I am.

Yes, I have to completely agree regarding SHOWING jealousy.

I do understand why she is jealous. I really and truly do. I guess it hurts me so much because I can only do so much to help her financial situation. SO did give them that 15,000 loan so I'm hoping that this helps them out a lot (according to BIL...this is where most of the debt is stemming from). My sister HAS been on the other end of the spectrum because BIL used to be well off as well before the real estate market went down hill. I was even over her house and told her that if she needed me to give them money weekly from my paycheck I would do it. I have never really talked to my sister about any of this. I've always just tried to act like it rolled off my back in front of her. It's when I am alone or with my mom that I have really spoken about my feelings. I doubt she has any idea that she's been causing me this much hurt. As I said before, I cut out a lot of people in my life. It has been a weeding out process for me, which has been difficult to say the least but also a blessing in disguise. I'm slowly forming a very tight knit group of friends that are genuinely good people who support me and SO fully. Also, I know I'm painting a picture of her being this nasty, awful, immature person. But she isn't. This is what gets me. SHE is *NOT* this. She was never jealous of anyone. She was always happy with everything she had and counted her blessings for having a phenomenal husband, great kids, and a family that loves her unconditionally. She is one of the kindest people that I know so her behavior has been shocking to me. I know that it is an internal struggle for her and she hates feeling the way she does. I remember having a conversation about jealousy in general and I slipped a comment and said "you never used to be jealous of anyone...what has changed?" She never really answered what changed and what has made her this way but she did tell me she hated having to feel jealous of anyone (friends at the time). I know that I should really talk to her about this but I don't want to anger her or upset her...its such a touchy subject. I feel helpless because I desperately want to get her out of this rut and I have no idea how, which is why I'm really banking on that 15000 loan helping them tremendously so they can live their lives normally again.

Okay, here's the thing: you need to disentangle yourself from her finances. No more talking to her about money, offering her an allowance (ouch! That would sting like hell if my little sister offered me that), nothing. If your SO and your BIL want to work something out privately, fine. But get yourself out of their bank account. It'll help.

BIL came to me and asked me for the loan so I was inevitably involved in the money situation. I offered them money every week to ease the situation because she knows I would do anything. Of course they declined, but I offered it after she told me some really personal things that have been going on in terms of money.

It doesn't really matter why you offered it, hun. I have no doubt your heart was in the right place. But if I was just trying to talk with my sister and be honest with her and just get things off of my chest and she offered me an allowance, I'd be really embarassed and a little angry. If I were her, and I was already jealous of the position you're in, it would seem very condescending to me, and I'd resent it. And I'd think you were trying to hold it over my head, and shove your luck in my face. Not because that's what you were trying to do, but because I would already have a lot of hang ups about money, and I would perceive your offer very differently than you would because I'd be mad at myself for letting it get to the point where somebody felt like I needed help that badly.

 

[Mashira]

*HUGS* I'm sorry Autumn. I can't imagine how heartbreaking this must be for you. I just wanted to post some comfort, as I think the other ladies have pretty much covered anything I would say.

 

[fieryred33143]

Okay, here's the thing: you need to disentangle yourself from her finances. No more talking to her about money, offering her an allowance (ouch! That would sting like hell if my little sister offered me that), nothing. If your SO and your BIL want to work something out privately, fine. But get yourself out of their bank account. It'll help.

Yes!

 

[Autumnovember]

I understand and appreciate the input. We are not American and in our culture offering this type of help regardless of who it is in the family offering it is not something that is taken offense to. Even IF she would have been offended she would have told my mom about it who would have then told me and asked me not to do that again.

 

[slg47]

now I'm curious...what culture are you from? (if you don't mind sharing!)

 

[princesss]

I understand and appreciate the input. We are not American and in our culture offering this type of help regardless of who it is in the family offering it is not something that is taken offense to. Even IF she would have been offended she would have told my mom about it who would have then told me and asked me not to do that again.

I really hope you're right, but it seriously sounds like she's got some pride issues going on and it's more that she has an issue with NEEDING help (or feeling like she needs it) rather than it being offered. I'm not trying to say she was offended by the offer, just that she's upset with her life and it's manifesting itself in a lot of different ways, and it'll probably be easier for her if you remove yourself from talking about money issues.

(I'm also curious about your cultural background now! Please tell if you're comfortable sharing - it could help us give better advice.)

 

[Autumnovember]

I'm Russian

My mom tried to even explain that since my sister did not grow up with an American mentality as much as I did that her blunt expressions are actually normal in the Russian culture. I know my mom was trying to see it from all angles but I told her that her actions weren't appropriate regardless.

 

[Autumnovember]

I understand and appreciate the input. We are not American and in our culture offering this type of help regardless of who it is in the family offering it is not something that is taken offense to. Even IF she would have been offended she would have told my mom about it who would have then told me and asked me not to do that again.

I really hope you're right, but it seriously sounds like she's got some pride issues going on and it's more that she has an issue with NEEDING help (or feeling like she needs it) rather than it being offered. I'm not trying to say she was offended by the offer, just that she's upset with her life and it's manifesting itself in a lot of different ways, and it'll probably be easier for her if you remove yourself from talking about money issues.

(I'm also curious about your cultural background now! Please tell if you're comfortable sharing - it could help us give better advice.)

It is definitely manifesting itself in many ways, this is for sure. I do not ask her about money related topics unless she brings them up on her own. Money is not something I like to talk to about with ANYONE with the exception of my own mom.

 

[slg47]

yes, different cultures definitely have different ways of approaching/dealing with these types of situations, so that is something important to keep in mind.

 

[Autumnovember]

To give an example of how it is OK to be blunt in our culture:


Lets say I saw my Aunt last November and then saw her again today. Lets also say hypothetically that I gained 50 pounds since then. My Aunt could say something like "Oh! You got heavy/fat" and it isn't something most Russians would take offense to. Instead they would say "Oh GOD! I knooooow!" ...thats the best example I can give.

 

[dawnabee]

Awww Autumn!! Sorry honey ****Hugs***

Everyone has given you such great advice and support! I believe she will get over it and if she doesn't then you have to just ignore it. Its not worth losing your sister and its only a small part of your life. So be happy and enjoy your time to shine

 

[HappyNewLife]

Don't let her get to you. This is her issue that she has to deal with.

Enjoy your ring and wear it proudly knowing that your FI loves you.

Don't let her jealousy affect your wedding plans. Plan the wedding YOU want with YOUR FI. If you like something, do it. Don't worry about planning something "small enough" or "simple enough" that your sister won't be jealous -- I get the feeling that she'd still be jealous if you wore a pair of old jeans and got married in a parking lot somewhere.


Congratulations on your engagement & beautiful ring -- enjoy them both.

this. Exactly! HUGS! Enjoy your time. It's not your fault she is jealous. She needs to deal with these issues, not you.

 

[merilenda]

To give an example of how it is OK to be blunt in our culture:


Lets say I saw my Aunt last November and then saw her again today. Lets also say hypothetically that I gained 50 pounds since then. My Aunt could say something like "Oh! You got heavy/fat" and it isn't something most Russians would take offense to. Instead they would say "Oh GOD! I knooooow!" ...thats the best example I can give.

Something like that is also common in some East Asian cultures.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I always think you need to assess the situation honestly when it comes to mixing money and family. In my family, we talk openly about money and will often loan one another large sums if we have it to loan... and even will often gift large sums. My husband and I have received many generous gifts and loans from my side. It is just the money culture for us. But my husband's family is very different, and after some aggravating experiences in the past when there was miscommunication about money, we have adopted a firm policy to never borrow money from them at any point in time. If they want to offer a gift, we would accept, but no loans at all, ever, even for $50. This ass despite the fact that his parents are very wealthy compared to mine

My point is that I totally get that there can be norms within your family that make it ok to loan etc and this may be different than the norms in the US, generally. BUT I would take a hard look at what has been going on thus far and ask yourself "Is this working?" I cannot help but agree with Princess that perhaps some of your sister's anger stems from feeling like she is in debt to you or that you can afford to support her etc. Maybe some rethinking of boundaries on your part would help?

Just because something is common in your culture or even between other members of the family does not mean it will work for you, too.

 

[Dreamer_D]

To give an example of how it is OK to be blunt in our culture:


Lets say I saw my Aunt last November and then saw her again today. Lets also say hypothetically that I gained 50 pounds since then. My Aunt could say something like "Oh! You got heavy/fat" and it isn't something most Russians would take offense to. Instead they would say "Oh GOD! I knooooow!" ...thats the best example I can give.

Something like that is also common in some East Asian cultures.

And Iranian. I had an Ex who was very recently immigrated from there, and I once picked a fight with his friend because his friend said, "You got so fat!" to him! haha... cultural miscommunication for sure.

 

[Autumnovember]

I always think you need to assess the situation honestly when it comes to mixing money and family. In my family, we talk openly about money and will often loan one another large sums if we have it to loan... and even will often gift large sums. My husband and I have received many generous gifts and loans from my side. It is just the money culture for us. But my husband's family is very different, and after some aggravating experiences in the past when there was miscommunication about money, we have adopted a firm policy to never borrow money from them at any point in time. If they want to offer a gift, we would accept, but no loans at all, ever, even for $50. This a$$ despite the fact that his parents are very wealthy compared to mine

My point is that I totally get that there can be norms within your family that make it ok to loan etc and this may be different than the norms in the US, generally. BUT I would take a hard look at what has been going on thus far and ask yourself "Is this working?" I cannot help but agree with Princess that perhaps some of your sister's anger stems from feeling like she is in debt to you or that you can afford to support her etc. Maybe some rethinking of boundaries on your part would help?

Just because something is common in your culture or even between other members of the family does not mean it will work for you, too.

Hmmm, lots of good points. Maybe she DOES feel like she somehow owes me something in return for the help I have given her. She owes me nothing though when it comes down to it. My family is my priority ALWAYS.

By the way, I can by NO means support her...I could only offer some sort of money to help alleviate the situation for them temporarily.

We haven't really talked about money since that incident anyways which was about a month ago...

 

[princesss]

To give an example of how it is OK to be blunt in our culture:


Lets say I saw my Aunt last November and then saw her again today. Lets also say hypothetically that I gained 50 pounds since then. My Aunt could say something like "Oh! You got heavy/fat" and it isn't something most Russians would take offense to. Instead they would say "Oh GOD! I knooooow!" ...thats the best example I can give.

Something like that is also common in some East Asian cultures.

And Iranian. I had an Ex who was very recently immigrated from there, and I once picked a fight with his friend because his friend said, "You got so fat!" to him! haha... cultural miscommunication for sure.

Merilinda, I was going to say the same thing about some East/Southeast Asian cultures. In Singapore blunt observations were very common - "Oh, you should run more, you're getting fat." "Aiyah, your face is getting so spotty!" (Yeah, at 15, that stung a little.) People wonder how I stayed so thin in HS - well, if everybody you ran into made a comment to you when you gained 5 lbs, you'd stay pretty darn slim, too!

 

[merilenda]

To give an example of how it is OK to be blunt in our culture:


Lets say I saw my Aunt last November and then saw her again today. Lets also say hypothetically that I gained 50 pounds since then. My Aunt could say something like "Oh! You got heavy/fat" and it isn't something most Russians would take offense to. Instead they would say "Oh GOD! I knooooow!" ...thats the best example I can give.

Something like that is also common in some East Asian cultures.

And Iranian. I had an Ex who was very recently immigrated from there, and I once picked a fight with his friend because his friend said, "You got so fat!" to him! haha... cultural miscommunication for sure.

Merilinda, I was going to say the same thing about some East/Southeast Asian cultures. In Singapore blunt observations were very common - "Oh, you should run more, you're getting fat." "Aiyah, your face is getting so spotty!" (Yeah, at 15, that stung a little.) People wonder how I stayed so thin in HS - well, if everybody you ran into made a comment to you when you gained 5 lbs, you'd stay pretty darn slim, too!

Yep, my mom is East Asian and was calling me fat by the time I was in 2nd grade or so. When she introduced me to people at work, she'd apologize for my being fat (all the while I'm elementary/middle school aged). This was obviously REALLY uncomfortable to people not part of the culture. And shockingly enough, I developed an eating disorder. I wonder how common that is in such cultures.

Anyway, sorry to get off-topic. Just agreeing that cultural considerations are definitely relevant when it comes to things like this.

 

[diva rose]

Autumn!!! <<<<<HUGS>>>>>>

Thanks for sharing your story and sorry to hear what you are going through.

I think it is wonderful and generous of you that you are helping your sister.
I have a younger sister and would do the same for her.

What the other PSers have been advising - 100% all true.
Lovely posts ladies!

I'm not going to repeat but wish you all the best.

Hope the talk with your sister goes well - I do think your mother/dad should have a word with her.
Sometimes you need a third party involved to let her know - her behaviour is not appropriate.

 

[Indylady]

I'm sorry you're going through this.

I was in a similar (though far less touchy, since it was a friend and not a sister) situation with a friend. Sadly, we're not even friends anymore. I won a fellowship for the coming fall/spring terms to do research abroad; I signed up to re-take the LSAT soon after. I was talking to my friend, telling her that I was stressed over studying for the LSAT and also looking for internships. Her exact words: "I want to punch you in the face. You already have a fellowship. Why do you want to do better on your LSAT? You already did fine. I don't think you're thankful for your fellowship." I spent 5 months preparing my application for my fellowship, and then from October to the following April waiting for an answer. The entire process took over a year; I went to workshops, webinars, asked lots of questions, sent lots and lots of emails and asked lots of people to read my essays, revised my essays at least 4-5 times, did more research, spent a long time formulating a research plan that could fit into 2 pages, and altogether worked really hard to put together strong application. I am incredibly grateful for actually getting it, so it sucked to hear my friend make it sound like I bought a dollar lottery ticket and ended up winning this award. She's also in law school at the same school I went to undergrad for, and I think that she was hurt that I wanted to go to a different school (not any particular school, just a different school) for law school, and not the school we both went to.

I wish I had good advice to offer. My friend stopped answering my phone calls after this conversation, even though the conversation had ended civilly. Lots of hugs.

What I do have to say: Don't mention that you've given your niece/nephew expensive gifts to anyone you know IRL. I know this is a fine detail, but I know if I heard this from my aunts, or heard it through the grapevine, I'd be incredibly upset. Any messy situations between you and your sister are just between the two of you; don't mention the little ones.

My personal policy is that I do not loan money; I only gift it. If you're in a bind, I'll gift you what I can afford to, and will not overextend myself so that I can loan you money. Its just too hard, and its too often that it sours a relationship. I know if your case, your sister might have needed more money than you could give, hence the loan. And since BIL asked for it, it puts you in a pickle. But, it can, and most likely will, create some tension. I know if I were you, I might secretly think, "She's being mean to me, but I'm being nice to her and secretly loaning her family money. How dare she treat me like this when I'm so good to her?!" And then it starts; resentment, feeling entitled to being treated well since you're helping her out..

Like others have said, detangle yourself from their finances. I know its hard in a close knit family. Instead of focusing on finances, see if there is anything else you can do for them that doesn't directly involve exchanging money. Helping baby sit, replacing something that is broken in the home, etc. If there's something that's a money sink for them, maybe see what you can do to fix this black hole. If it were me, I'd pick a helpful, big ticket item I could "gift" to them rather than to give them money directly. Good luck, I hope things start looking brighter for your sister and her family!!

 

[Nashville]

Your sister should NOT have commented on the ring that way. Of course, I'm sure it makes you feel bad.

But regardless, you might feel bad, but you're feeling bad in a financially comfortable situation with a big diamond ring on your hand. Your sister is struggling with kids to support. I'm not saying you are in any way obligated to do anything about her situation, but as someone who's been there, I can relate to how she's feeling. She looks at that big ring and thinks "Wow, that probably cost $20,000. If I had that kind of money, I wouldn't be in debt/wouldn't be late on rent/wouldn't worry about the utilities getting shut off."

That's just what happens when financial worries eat away at people. There was a time in my life when I wouldn't buy food for myself because my daughter's prescriptions needed to be refilled. My husband's friend had just bought a brand new car and was going on a Vegas vacation the week my husband was laid off and my husband couldn't talk to him for a long time. Not because he doesn't like him, and not because he isn't happy for his success. It's just hard to be doing cartwheels over someone else's expensive lifestyle when you can't make two ends meet in your own world.

This is NOT to make you feel worse. I know you feel bad, but I think the last thing your sister needs right now is any more lecturing. Try to have some compassion for what she's going through and allow yourself to be happy with your engagement.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

What Princesss said. The loan has already happened, can't undo that, but try not to involve yourself or your FI further in their finances. The worst conflicts in families and/or relationships come from money issues. And since you've already offered her financial help multiple times, and she's refused, stop offering.

I think she was a total b!tch for being so rude, but on the other hand, it could be argued that she sees you as rubbing your money in her face (asking her if she needs help, showing the ring to her, etc.). Now, we all KNOW you're not doing that, but she's obviously not in a good place right now, and even well-intentioned acts like yours can be misinterpreted.

 

[iota15]

Um, she thinks your ring costs $30,000 to $40,000!!! (And you didn't even correct her, so that leaves her to think she was on the mark).

Her husband felt desparate enough to stick his hand out and ask you for $15,000. Your BOYFRIEND (not even your fiance, or well, family yet) had to Loan him that money.

As far as she's concerned, she's happy to have your SO in the family. They're struggling to deal with the interest/debt in the amount of $15,000 (at Least!) and you have a ring that is at least DOUBLE that amount in her mind.

Listen to blacksand, it's Incredibly hard to pull back the jealously. She should have tried harder but the stunning realization of what that ring could do for her situation, on the spot, was obviously too much.

Financial troubles are terrible - and you likely won't have the sister you knew until her finances are under control, and it sounds like they're not currently.

As far as including her in the wedding - it's going to be incredibly difficult for her to watch you spend moola on a cake, and then on a wedding dress, and then flowers, and so on and so forth. I'm sorry that you don't like the way she's acting but in her position, I think it's natural for her to feel like her insides are being torn out with each major purchase - when she's struggling to make her mortgage and put clothes on her kids.

I'm also not saying she acted appropriately (obviously). If you want your sister in your life, you'll have to be compassionate for as long as its necessary. And to be honest, she might take that decision out of your hands and loosen her relationship with you. I'd also Seriously consider whether to include her in the wedding party and in what manner.

I think it's fine to have her as your MOH BUT I would just pay for her dress and tell her to be there on the day, or any bachelorette parties your other bridesmaids' throw for you. I would NOT invite her to any cake tastings, venue shopping, flower buying, etc. You cannot make her happy for you, and she is obviously having a hard time controlling her feelings. It's a recipe for disaster.

 

[Autumnovember]

She wouldn't be able to do as much either way because she had two kids she is really dedicated to.

Thanks for your post. However, I'd just like to make one thing clear: they are not struggling to pay for mortgage or to put clothes on my nephews. Its not THAT bad. I hope I didn't make it sound like they were starving for food and almost living on the streets. They're not.

 

[Indylady]

I'll admit that things sounded pretty bad to me by your post. I'm glad you've cleared that up, I was a little worried!

 

[luckynumber]

Oh that's good I was worried too.

Sounds like she's upset that she has no money for luxuries which is understandable. It's the same with my sister. Our differences in earning power has driven a wedge between us, but it's because she is jealous and nothing that I have deliberately done. I am well aware that life could turn the tables on us at any time and she could get filthy rich. I hope that in that case I can be the bigger person and just be truly happy for her. I'm just rambling now, guess I'm just hurt at the intensity of her jealousy which just makes me think less of her as a person. I try to ignore it really but it still gets me sometime. She's my only sister too.

Sorry for the threadjack!

 

[Miss Sparkly]

I'm so sorry you have to go through this I have no great words of wisdom to give and I know jealousy can rip people apart. I just hope that your sis will come to learn that her life is her life and your life is your life and though you have a stunning ring I'm sure she has things (or people) that are equally stunning to her.

Now....where is your "Show me the Bling" thread on that stunner ?

 

[Autumnovember]

Yeah, I think I made it sound worse then how it is. The debt is stemming from a car that they bought when they were financially stable that they're having a tough time paying off now. So that's where my SO came in and gave them a 15,000$ loan so they could just pay off the bank and not worry about interest. SO should be getting the money back soon because BIL is getting a large sum of money from a pending lawsuit.

 

[Autumnovember]

Lucky, thats exactly it. They don't have the extra money for luxuries.



The SMTB is going to be put up today. I'm excited