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The First Round of Possibilities

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by alechope, Oct 27, 2003.

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  1. alechope
    Rough_Rock

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  2. aljdewey
    Ideal_Rock

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    by aljdewey » Oct 29, 2003
    Wow....that hearts image doesn't look like a bonafide H&A to me.




    Look at how the base of the heart touches the V below it on some hearts. Also, the V isn't well-defined all the way around.
     
  3. magna2
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    by magna2 » Oct 29, 2003


    It is hard to determine whether it was just a poor IdealScope picture of the stone or whether the image definitely is portraying leakage. Or a combination.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. alechope
    Rough_Rock

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    by alechope » Oct 29, 2003
    I'm trying to get more information from the vendor now ... I'm pretty close to going with this one, but it'll depend on the details of the cut. If this idealscope picture pans out, what to y'all think? the first G / SI 1 that I put pictures up of, or this I / VS2? It's so hard to tell!
     
    


    


  5. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Oct 29, 2003
    Well the ACA *is* a true H&A stone (don't know about that G SI) so if you are looking for branding recognition from Papa-In-Law...that would help. Both IS images look slightly leaky...though I do have to say the ACA stone looks like it has fatter arrows, so it may have more fire while the G SI has thinner, seemingly more precise arrows...somewhat better looking IS image in my opinion. Both look like really lovely stones though, don't think either of them is going to make you cry with sorrow.




    Also am somewhat surprised that WF is now putting up these IS images that look nothing like their previous ACA IS images where ALL areas of the stone are deep red except for the black arrows, demonstrating the very minimal (if at all) light leakage. Are these new IS images the real deal..and if so, were the other images just a marketing tool? Somewhat interesting.... also I wish WF would get pictures of all their stones up. I am SO TIRED of looking at those ridiculous 'sample of an image' pictures--they aren't even that good! [​IMG]
     
  6. spicolicpa
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    by spicolicpa » Oct 29, 2003
    Wow,
    Good points Mara, I am suprised. I hate to see the sample images.....

    That is either a terrible picture of a Hearts and Arrow Diamond (The one where there are no arrows showing), or its a terrible Hearts and Arrow stone....
     
  7. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Oct 29, 2003


     
  8. alechope
    Rough_Rock

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    by alechope » Oct 29, 2003
    Two things:

    1) The bad hearts photo on the second diamond was just that -- a bad photo. i got another picture emailed to me a few minutes ago that has much more classic / symmetric hearts. If I can figure out how to shrink it under 100 kb, I'll post it here

    2) The WF guy said that they couldn't retake the IS photo -- that it wouldn't change anything - but that more photos were on the way later today. I'll post 'em when they come. I am admittedly amateur, but I'm not going to worry about the state of the arrows on the ACA stone -- they're there, but the particular (and pretty slight, really) light leakage is dimming the points. But I reserve the right to change my judgment when the real pictures come!
     
  9. aljdewey
    Ideal_Rock

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    by aljdewey » Oct 29, 2003


     
  10. alechope
    Rough_Rock

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    by alechope » Oct 29, 2003
    Here's the improved Hearts photo for the G / SI 1 / 0.957 ct. stone.

    The hearts and arrows shots of the VS2 / I are on their way...

    Hearts244949.jpg
     
    


    


  11. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 29, 2003
    "/..... I am admittedly amateur, but I'm not going to worry about the state of the arrows on the ACA stone -- they're there, but the particular (and pretty slight, really) light leakage is dimming the points....../"

    Are we talking about the same stone? The one that is called a Hearts and Arrow on WhiteFlash (A Cut Above)?

    It was my opinion that a Hearts and Arrow stone should exibit the Black Arrows all the way to the edge, if not this is what is called a Phoney Hearts and Arrows and falls under the same marketing scams as the "Perfect Diamond" and calling a Cubic Zirc and "Diamond".

    As someone who is trying to learn as much as possible about the Super Ideal Cuts and specifically cuts that exibit the true Hearts and Arrows pattern, I would appreciate an expert to comment on the absence of "arrow blackness" and if this means a small amount of light leakage that truely is not important or if this means that this should not be called a Hearts and Arrow stone......

    If this is an accurate picture of the stone which reflects the true light return, is this not deceptive to call this a True Hearts and Arrows?

    Link to funny looking Hearts and Arrows at Whiteflash
     
  12. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 29, 2003
    Compared to what is an Ideal Hearts and Pattern should this be called H&A diamond?
     
  13. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 29, 2003
    see if this works....it won't work but as Mara indicated above, the picture that White Flash shows on the Diamond Info page linked above shows a Ideal Scope Image Very Different from the actual diamond....
     
  14. Rhino
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

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    by Rhino » Oct 29, 2003
    Mara is correct about the lighting and the scope used. These 2 pictures below are of the same diamond. One picture would lead you to believe it would get a triple VH on the BrillianceScope the other explains why it doesn't.


    The pic on the left is an IS image the pic on the right is our LightScope.




    /idealbb/files/DSCN95r93.jpg/idealbb/files/DSCN95r87.jpg




    Of the images that have been posted by the originator of this thread I would suggest the first stone of them all. The first G SI1 (I think it was).
     
  15. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Oct 29, 2003
    Wow Rhino...those pictures are like night and day--of the same stone even!! The picture on the left look like what alot of WF's ACA stones used to look like, now it seems they are posting more 'realistic' images of the stones with the product pages...does anyone know any more information on this and why they are switching? Possibly I will post in a separate thread and see if Lesley or Bob will respond. [​IMG]
     
    


    


  16. Rhino
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Rhino » Oct 29, 2003
    Hi Mara,




    Me thinks ... and I'm just going on a hunch here ... that ACA may have picked up EightStars symmetryscope. I believe 8* picked up on my own modifications and has attempted to incorporate it into their "new" firescope which I must say looks *better* but not quite what I'm using. [​IMG] I am spoiled with the depth of detail I'm used to. [​IMG]




    Brian.. Lesley... have I hit the nail on the head?




    Rhino
     
  17. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    Well fist off, when I initially saw the ACA picture I am pretty sure you could see no or almost no arrowheads.....now I can see a highlight of the arrow heads....contrast may have been tweeked....still a long way from the worse of the two pics above...much less arrowhead...

    The question still remains does this bleeding of light return effect the stone....if this is truely a H&A stone cut to Super Ideal Proportions it should not leak this much......

    Seems like I am talking to myself here? I do that sometimes:O) Actually I am suprised to be echoing Mara...

    She might not be just a pretty face working for the wizard behind the green curtain.
     
  18. alechope
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    by alechope » Oct 30, 2003

    I hear you, spicolicpa -- and am slowing down and reexamining my choices, and looking around some more, as a result. You are, of course, right -- a super-ideal cut and noticable light leakage should not go together!
     
  19. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    The whole point of my and I believe some of Mara's complaint is that a customer may read about hearts and arrows and ideal cuts here and elsewhere (Not an expert by any means) and decide "hell I am spending the money on a sure bet" and pay the various premiums instilled at different vendors for those stones.

    The problem is that the H&A qualifications may have been diluted to such an extent that his stone has a much lower light return than it should in order to be called a H&A Cut ABove the Regular Super Ideal stone, not only making "Tom Iwanna-idealcut" feel cheated but also lowering the overall value of my True Super Ideal Stone by association. In essence diluting the H&A pool.

    At least at this forum, the vendors SHOULD seek to uphold these ideals by educating the consumer in order have them appreciate the TRUE SUPER IDEAL CUT HEARTS AND ARROWS. Not tell them nominal light leakage is acceptable for our H&A's.

    I still have not been told how badly this faint trace of arrows depicts lite leakage???
     
  20. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Oct 30, 2003


     
  21. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    "..../Well the ACA *is* a true H&A stone..../"

    You said it is....I am not so sure.

    I apologize if you mistook the Phrase "Not just another pretty face" It's a turn of the cheek indicating respect for your opinion....in today’s gender sensitive, politically correct, Arnold grooped a few doozen, climate this was inappropriate.

    Backhanded sounds like something Jethro would do to his dog....this was definitely not my intent! [​IMG]

    Sooo, if indeed this post gets ignored for whatever reason I will try and start a new post, or you could if you want.

    In the end I think we helped the consumer so that’s cool.
    [:applaud:]


    "......\I think it's also important to point out that I don't see anyone from WF piping in saying that 'nominal light leakage is acceptable' for their H&A's. Did you see a post I didn't?...../.."

    He wrote:
    /..... I am admittedly amateur, but I'm not going to worry about the state of the arrows on the ACA stone -- they're there, but the particular (and pretty slight, really) light leakage is dimming the points....../"

    I assumed, perhaps incorrectly that someone told him that the light leakage was slight.

    A true H&A has very slight leakage period!

    I am sure you have got plenty of issues all your own...

    [​IMG]
     
  22. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    Readers should ref. the recent post "What is the premium for a Hearts and Arrow stone"

    I learned that the above shown stone may well exhibit H&A's pattern and not show the black arrows all the way to the edge. Its just a relatively POORER performing H&A stone.

    I think?????????????????????

    In the end; if I were a owner of a branded stone I would hope that brand continues to maintain its commitment to excellence in order to keep from diluting the pool of branded stones.

    I look at this the same way I would apply a Diluted Earnings Per Share Calculation. If the Share is dilutive, thus lower than the average price (Quality) it should be excluded.
     
  23. canadiangrrl
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by canadiangrrl » Oct 30, 2003
    "In the end; if I were a owner of a branded stone I would hope that brand continues to maintain its commitment to excellence in order to keep from diluting the pool of branded stones."

    From a marketing perspective, that statement makes little sense. The value of a branded stone hinges somewhat on the integrity of the brand. But a stone won't lose its inherent value to the consumer if the brand loses its integrity. Because I would wager that the ultimate value of the stone for most consumers is symbolic and personal, and has nothing to do with the brand. There are times when I think that gets forgotten around here. [​IMG]

    Spicoli, I'm happy that you're happy with your new diamond. I didn't drink the H&A Kool-Aid so I can't expound on the multitude of virtues that these stones possess, branded or non. They are undoubtedly beautiful diamonds and should be appreciated as such.

    And Mara's a big girl and doesn't need my help, but I'm gonna say it anyways - she is an extremely informed consumer who invests of herself in order to be helpful to those who frequent this forum seeking advice (me included.) So don't pick on her, 'kay? [​IMG]
     
  24. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    ".......\From a marketing perspective, that statement makes little sense. The value of a branded stone hinges somewhat on the integrity of the brand. But a stone won't lose its inherent value to the consumer if the brand loses its integrity....../"

    It makes very much sense. You have to consider that there was an initial investment in the piece. This investment included a premium based on the inherent goodwill associated with the brand (In addition to the intrinsic value of the piece itself). Combine these two amounts and you get total cash outlay.

    This Goodwill, if it maintains intact or continues to positively accrue will positively effect the value of a stone branded by that particular brand. If in the future the goodwill becomes impaired for whatever reason than your Branded stone looses a portion of its initial invested value.

    Marketing is for wienies...talk to your accountant first.
    [​IMG]

    Sorry to correct you.

    Now the Kool-Aid comment was actually pretty funny; I recommend that you go to the Thread intitled "H&A premium" posted recently and review what is important. It’s not H&A but rather light return. Perhaps this is what you are referring to here.... Excellent light return in a stone that exhibits the H&A patter (More likely than not these two are congruent) equal an AWSOME stone! Like theone I got from Barry at Superbcerts. (Barry you better keep up the good work man!)

    Finally I do not want to pick on anyone...I have been picked on enough here for giving my opinions. I might choose to appologise for my spelling or the absence of sugar coating my responses.....but I will do so at a later date.

    Refer to my above post for further clarification.
     
  25. aljdewey
    Ideal_Rock

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    by aljdewey » Oct 30, 2003


     
  26. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    Accounting and life are very often in agreement....unless you live in China where their ideas of accounting and life are quite backwards....

    As far as your other points......sometimes I wonder if you really believe what you say or just say as a feeble attempt to contadict me.....

    In the past this has turned out badly and resulted in a impairment of face.

    Every purchase you make must be looked at as an investment...while this particular investment has an emotional quotent inserted as a variable and you want to think "I will keep this forever" this does not contradict anything I have previously commented on.

    In addition, if you were to start looking at life more like an accountant you might have a bigger diamond on your finger.

    [​IMG]
     
  27. canadiangrrl
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by canadiangrrl » Oct 30, 2003
    A-fricken'-men, Al. [​IMG]

    Spicoli - that whooshing noise you heard awhile back was the sound of my point going over your head. [​IMG]

    Back to my weenie marketing duties. As you were. [​IMG]
     
  28. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Oct 30, 2003
    The beauty of your posts, spic...is that most of what you say doesn't make any sense...so it's quite easy for one (or all) to contradict you--and be quite effective at it. You're inflammatory for no reason other than to be inflammatory, and your love of assumptions about ANYTHING -- whether it be marketing or H&A or light return usually sound as though you talk/type first and think later.

    Feel picked on? How about it's because you seem to pick needlessly at others. Comments such as'In addition, if you were to start looking at life more like an accountant you might have a bigger diamond on your finger.' are completely non-constructive and bear no relevance to this conversation.

    If you are looking for the absence of sugar-coated responses, there ya go. [​IMG] Can you calculate the emotional quotient of that?

     
  29. aljdewey
    Ideal_Rock

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    by aljdewey » Oct 30, 2003


     
  30. canadiangrrl
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by canadiangrrl » Oct 30, 2003
    Al - quick, before I get engaged this weekend - marry me? Yes, I know we're both on the distaff end of things, but we could find a way to make it work! [​IMG]

    *goes back to developing weenie marketing plan for "Late For Lunch Superideal Diamonds*

    Edited because spelling is my friend.
     
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