The Engagement/Marriage Psychology Thread

[ladypirate]

Great thread!

Earlier, there was some commentary on people wanting to get engaged who haven''t been with their SOs for more than 1-2 years. I just wanted to throw my two cents in and say that while I agree to some extent, I think it also depends greatly on how long you''ve known the person overall. A couple who were close for several years before dating officially are certainly going to know each other better after only being "together" for a year than a couple who has only known each other for a year. Granted, I think it''s still important to be together in a romantic sense for a decent amount of time as well, but it does make a difference.

Also, someone mentioned the book "The Rules". I have to say that I completely disagreed with nearly everything that book said. Not to go on a rant, but it was basically an instruction manual for manipulating a man into marrying you. Such adages as "never call him back" and "never go dutch on a date" completely go against all the tenets of equality that to me define a truly meaningful and fulfilling relationship. If you want to end up with someone who actually loves you for who you are, and not some facade you put up to trap a man, then maybe try being yourself and finding someone who appreciates that.

OK, so that did turn into a bit of a rant, but that book drives me insane. I don''t think I''d want to be with anyone who would actually like a woman who would act like that.

As far as why I want to be engaged, I think the main reason is that after spending many years (3 years with one, 4 years with another, and a year with another...shockingly I actually did spend some time being single as well) in relationships with the wrong people (not that they weren''t great guys--just not right for me), I''ve found someone who is so profoundly right for me. I guess I''m just so thrilled that I''ve found someone who complements me so well that I want to make it official. I''m willing to wait for a while for the actual proposal, since we''re already committed to each other, but I am looking forward to it.

Sorry if that made little sense, I''m a bit tired.

 

[sweetjettagirl04]

Date: 1/7/2008 1:23:39 PM
Author: ladypirate
Great thread!

Earlier, there was some commentary on people wanting to get engaged who haven't been with their SOs for more than 1-2 years. I just wanted to throw my two cents in and say that while I agree to some extent, I think it also depends greatly on how long you've known the person overall. A couple who were close for several years before dating officially are certainly going to know each other better after only being 'together' for a year than a couple who has only known each other for a year. Granted, I think it's still important to be together in a romantic sense for a decent amount of time as well, but it does make a difference.

Also, someone mentioned the book 'The Rules'. I have to say that I completely disagreed with nearly everything that book said. Not to go on a rant, but it was basically an instruction manual for manipulating a man into marrying you. Such adages as 'never call him back' and 'never go dutch on a date' completely go against all the tenets of equality that to me define a truly meaningful and fulfilling relationship. If you want to end up with someone who actually loves you for who you are, and not some facade you put up to trap a man, then maybe try being yourself and finding someone who appreciates that.

OK, so that did turn into a bit of a rant, but that book drives me insane. I don't think I'd want to be with anyone who would actually like a woman who would act like that.

As far as why I want to be engaged, I think the main reason is that after spending many years (3 years with one, 4 years with another, and a year with another...shockingly I actually did spend some time being single as well) in relationships with the wrong people (not that they weren't great guys--just not right for me), I've found someone who is so profoundly right for me. I guess I'm just so thrilled that I've found someone who complements me so well that I want to make it official. I'm willing to wait for a while for the actual proposal, since we're already committed to each other, but I am looking forward to it.

Sorry if that made little sense, I'm a bit tired.

Well said. I agree with everything that has been said so far. I don't remember who broke it down into two groups, but they were spot-on. I'm in the boat of can't wait to start my life with BF that I am anxious to get engaged and start planning for the future with BF, because I want that deep commitment that marriage entails, and I know it's not going to be a fairy tale.

However, I have witnessed the other side of marrying for the sake of being married. An estranged friend (long story) of mine was the type of person who could not function without being in a relationship. She would think something was wrong if her BF at the time didn't tell her they loved her within less than a month of dating. She was dating one of my good friends for about 3 years - and they broke up more times than I can count. Geez, I would be a millionaire if I had a dime for everytime they broke up and got back together. The longest break they had was about a month, and within that time she started dating someone new, and was still calling/texting/stalking her ex, all the while she was so happy with this new guy. Well, when he didn't call her a million times a day, and she found out he didn't have a lot of money, she broke it off with him, saying that she needed someone that could support her. She is also the type of girl that wants a 2 carat princess cut, no matter the cost, and demands that as her engagement ring. Love is not the issue with her, she wanted to get married just for the sake of it, for someone to take care of her.

To get to the point of that little story - she was so messed up with the relationship with my good friend that I suggested she needed to take time for herself - because she had no idea who she was, and she just turned 30. But, she was the kind of person that her relationship defines who she is - and I truly feel sorry for her. It's not an easy issue - I used to suggest that she just takes some time for herself to find out what she wanted - and she would agree - then a week later she was pining to be in another relationship, or trying to get back together with an ex in a volatile relationship just because she knew he would eventually marry her, and he was more than secure financially.

It's people like that who jade the concept of love and commitment for others. I'm happy that I know who I am, what I want, and that includes my life with BF. I couldn't live without him. He's my best friend, my support, and the reason I am so happy and secure. He's been there for me through everything - and I can't wait to spend the rest of my life with him. I am anxious - for lack of a better word- about getting married because I want it, for good or bad.

 

[Delster]

This thread is fantastic, than you Surfgirl! I'm particularly interested reading the married ladies' reflections on their time as LIW and on what marriage means to them. I'm finding I agree with so much of what you say. Is there a Surfgirl and TGal fanclub I can join?

I do think in the States there's a lot more social pressure to get engaged, and it comes a lot sooner. I am 28 and the first time I ever felt 'lapped' was this past weekend when a cousin who is the same age got engaged. I have four other cousins (two male, two female) who got engaged at 24/25 and the extended family was SHOCKED so I didn't register any social pressure around those engagements. As the most recent cousin is 28 and this time the family is simply ecstatic (no whispering behind the windows!), I guess I perceive more social pressure now when I didn't before?

In my circle of friends there is only one engaged couple and they are going out eleven years. Again, people's jaws dropped at the announcement because they are 'only' 26. The other couples are not engaged yet and all are dating around five or six years. By contrast one of my closest girlfriends is American, she's 18 months younger than me, and married two years with a baby. She knows her husband less time than I know my BF and after 18 months of dating her mother took her aside and told her to ditch him if he didn't propose pronto because she wasn't getting any younger. At that time she was 23.

Maybe the difference is in the emphasis on the couples' age rather than on length of relationship? Over here we have this idea of late twenties / early thirties being a good time to get engaged and married and people don't tend to get enagaged before then, no matter how long they've been together. What I mean is, it's kind of like the length of the relationship is irrelevant, because you don't reach the 'marriage stage' of life until you are a certain age. But many of the women on this forum seem to start getting 'social engagement pressure' around the two year mark, no matter how old / young they are, because the relationship is perceived to be at the 'marriage stage'. Hmmmm...



One last statistics point for Indy - I can't remember the source (I just know it was in the foreword to a book of memoires from the 18th century but don't have the book to hand to check it) but before the Great Famine the average age of marriage in Ireland was much, much younger. As in late TEENS. Since the famine it has remained consistently in the late twenties / early thirties.

Date: 1/5/2008 6:43:41 PM
Author: bee*
I'd be the same as you-barring the two reasons that you listed, no divorce for me. It was only brought into Ireland in the last decade and there are so many constrictions on getting one, that it's a lengthy process.

Just on this point, if anyone is interested (disregard me if I'm being boring!)... Ireland has 'no fault' divorce so all you have to prove to get a divorce is that (a) you have been separated for five years, (b) there is no hope of reconciliation, and (c) proper provision has been made for the spouses and any dependents. The 'grounds' for divorce are very straighforward, it's the negotiation of the financial aspects of the divorce particulars (the 'proper provision' part) which is obviously sensitive and difficult to come to an agreement on. But if you can settle the provision part quickly then you can get a divorce in Ireland super quick.

 

[Erin]

Okay I''ll bite.

I came onto this website googling a frustration about my bf and was directed to other women asking similar questions. I too never dated much after college, maybe the one and two dates versions but all the time. I left my medium sized town in Illinois and moved to Chicago for four years. Then I met M in a bar in the suburbs. It was so strange because I wasn''t looking and in fact was in a stage in my life where I didn''t want a boyfriend, yet there he was. We dated the remaining two years I lived up there and everything was grand.

We started talking seriously and he suggested that we moved closer to my origins to get out of the city and start a life together so I could be closer to my family. He moved his mother and sister down there too so they could be close to us. This was the likely path. And of course everyone was asking when when when. It''s hard not to believe that when ''should'' be coming. Everyone else expects it.

We spent two more years together in central Illinois - working our jobs, hanging out with friends, taking care of our animals. Every time I brought up marriage it was finances, or a house is more important (we were still renting), or getting more established. He had fears of all eyes being on him at a wedding. You name it - he could have written the excuse book. Yet, he wanted to marry me someday. But it had been six years and I couldn''t get him to commit to a PLAN so I left.

Those were agonizing LIW times for me. Sure there was societal pressure and family talk and being lapped and just sitting there waiting. Waiting. We knew three years ago we were spending the rest of our lives together - that''s why we moved down here. How do you say all that waiting and agonizing could have been cleared up with just a little communication. Maybe I''m missing the big picture, but it''s not always so cut and dry as to say - if she would have just communicated with him then she''d have a clear cut answer.

I''m proud of myself for leaving him. I won''t wait around for someone to make that kind of affect on my life. I waited too long. And here I am 32 and single. I''m very happy with where I am. And yes, there is still pressure from society and family - I guess I can''t avoid that. But at least I''m not left wondering how a man will turn his whole world upside down for you and leave you waiting to start the next ideological stage we had previously agreed upon.

Afterall, there are consequences for letting anything boil too long.

 

[Keepingthefaith21]

I guess for me my LIW anxiety stems from a medical condition that has left me very little room to be able to have a child naturally and the more time I watch tick away, the more I know my chances shrink. Thanks to my line of work, I am acutely aware of the standards in the health insurance world surrounding IVF and ART treatments in women over the age of 35. It seems many insurance companies mandate that once a woman is 35 or older (i.e. nearing the end of her natural child bearing years) if she can not conceive naturally IVF and ART treatments will not be covered on a consistent and continual basis. Although I am not old fashioned, I would prefer to be married before starting a family (and because of that I have actively used birth control to prevent any accidents).

Realistically I know my SO and I are not in a proper position to have a child. I would like to be a bit more established at my current job and would like to have a few more years of salary increases under our belts before we start our family. However, I had always imagined I would be married before the age of 30 and working on a family by 31. Now that I have realized I won’t be married by the age of 30 there’s a small part of me that panics every now and then which results in LIW anxiety. I never wanted to get married and rush right into trying for a family but it looks like that will be the way the chips will fall for me.

I don’t fall for the pressures of society as I find society is usually looking for an excuse to justify mistakes collectively instead of individually. I’ve been lapped by every single one of my female friends and have been happy for all of them. I’m not in a race against my friends. The only race I am in, if any, is a race with myself to work towards the things I know I deserve: confidence in myself, a good paying job, dependable/true friends and a peaceful mind.

I don’t think I really need to get into the fact that I genuinely love my SO and want to spend the rest of my life with him…I am assuming that you can all figure that out for yourselves as I wouldn’t be in “waiting” for someone I didn’t know was a damn good match.

 

[sweetjettagirl04]

Date: 1/8/2008 12:57:17 PM
Author: Starset Princess
Okay I'll bite.

I came onto this website googling a frustration about my bf and was directed to other women asking similar questions. I too never dated much after college, maybe the one and two dates versions but all the time. I left my medium sized town in Illinois and moved to Chicago for four years. Then I met M in a bar in the suburbs. It was so strange because I wasn't looking and in fact was in a stage in my life where I didn't want a boyfriend, yet there he was. We dated the remaining two years I lived up there and everything was grand.

We started talking seriously and he suggested that we moved closer to my origins to get out of the city and start a life together so I could be closer to my family. He moved his mother and sister down there too so they could be close to us. This was the likely path. And of course everyone was asking when when when. It's hard not to believe that when 'should' be coming. Everyone else expects it.

We spent two more years together in central Illinois - working our jobs, hanging out with friends, taking care of our animals. Every time I brought up marriage it was finances, or a house is more important (we were still renting), or getting more established. He had fears of all eyes being on him at a wedding. You name it - he could have written the excuse book. Yet, he wanted to marry me someday. But it had been six years and I couldn't get him to commit to a PLAN so I left.

Those were agonizing LIW times for me. Sure there was societal pressure and family talk and being lapped and just sitting there waiting. Waiting. We knew three years ago we were spending the rest of our lives together - that's why we moved down here. How do you say all that waiting and agonizing could have been cleared up with just a little communication. Maybe I'm missing the big picture, but it's not always so cut and dry as to say - if she would have just communicated with him then she'd have a clear cut answer.

I'm proud of myself for leaving him. I won't wait around for someone to make that kind of affect on my life. I waited too long. And here I am 32 and single. I'm very happy with where I am. And yes, there is still pressure from society and family - I guess I can't avoid that. But at least I'm not left wondering how a man will turn his whole world upside down for you and leave you waiting to start the next ideological stage we had previously agreed upon.

Afterall, there are consequences for letting anything boil too long.

Starset - When you mention about just communicating and that it's not always cut and dry - I agree with you. The most common instance of any of us suggesting communication is when the OP mentions they won't talk to their SO because they're worried about the pressure it may place on the other person, or what their reaction may be. Most times, the OP is very clear in saying they haven't talked to them for whatever reason, and that's when most logical advice is to go ahead and talk to them about it.

It seems like you had a different situation than others that post and are encouraged to have that talk. I admire your strength for standing up for what you want out of life, and not putting up with him continually giving you excuses.

 

[rubybeth]

Well, probably all of what I''m going to say has been covered, but I thought I''d add my comments.

I''ll preface this by saying I never really thought I''d get married. I went to college thinking I''d become an editor because of my love of reading and writing, and after graduation, that''s what I did. I worked for a while and hated that career choice, so I moved back in with my parents and went back to what I knew I loved: working in libraries, which I''d done in high school and college. I went through a breakup during this time, too, so it was kind of rough but I knew I''d be okay on my own. I knew I needed another career in order to support myself. Ultimately, I decided to apply to graduate school in order to become a professional librarian.

Literally two days after my current BF officially asked me to be his girlfriend, I found out I got into graduate school (this was in 2005). So he''s known from the beginning that I''m probably going to have to move from our hometown when I graduate. We started discussing marriage very early because (I think) he was frustrated with having girlfriends who just wanted to be girlfriends or just didn''t treat him like the relationship was really going anywhere. I told him that I could see us sticking together, and he agreed. We''d known each other since high school and had spent about two years getting to be close friends before he ended my agony and admitted he liked me, too.

At the beginning, I found Neil Clark Warren''s books to be very helpful. His book that explains all the dimensions of compatibility backed up what I was feeling about my BF. I knew we were good together, and after reading about compatibility, I knew why. We have similar energy levels, communicate very well, have similar backgrounds, and on and on. We have our differences, too, but knowing what those are helps us to step back and say, "Well, this is where we''re different, but it doesn''t mean we don''t love each other."

I have a handful of friends who are living together or engaged or married, but there''s basically no pressure from my social circle to get married. It''s really something that we want for ourselves, though I''ve told him I would move in with him once I have a ring. We are both living at home currently and both going to school (him for his teaching degree to add to the B.A. he finished a few years ago), and save a ton of money doing this. We have decided we''d rather wait to live together, save up, and be able to get married sooner. Plus, both coming from fairly traditional Catholic backgrounds, the annoyance of having family ''disapprove'' wouldn''t be worth it just to live together 6 months sooner.

I only joined the LIW forum after we''d gone ring ''scoping'' a few times at local stores, and only really started considering how exactly we''d get married (i.e. vague wedding planning) 6 months ago. He set aside funds for a ring in early December, so we''ll probably be engaged after dating for more than 2 years, which is also something Neil Clark Warren recommends.

So, really long post, not sure if it''s helpful, but there ya go!

 

[MoonWater]

KeepingtheFaith: I completey understand your position (and thanks for the info about insurance btw, I had no idea!!). I will be 31 by the time I am married and really wanted to go to grad school but realized that work full time, school part time, and a pregancy might not mix. I strugged for a long while over what to do and ultimately decided that it was more important for me to work full time to save money and prepare for a child. I didn''t want to take the risk of having the degree (which I can always get later) and finding out I couldn''t have a kid because I was too old. I still struggle with it a little, wondering if I could manage to slip in all three. But I know what is most important and I put myself back in place.

So I feel your pain on wanting things to be more perfect in preparation, but life doesn''t tend to work out that way anyhow. I''m sure some other obstacle could convince you to wait even longer. If you know a child is one of your top priorities, go for it. I''m sure you and your SO will be able to survive. I always look at inner city single mothers and think, if they can make it, I need to shut up haha.

I''ll have to comen back to this thread later when I have more time. I was skimming and KTF''s post hit home for me.

 

[Sparkalicious]

Interesting thread ... I never could nail down exactly what I didn''t "get" about the expressed anxiety, so to speak, in some of the LIW posts. I better understand after reading everyone''s posts now. There is an incredible diversity of thoughts here on PS. Thanks so much everyone for being willing to share.

I''ll share mine.

My situation is a little different. My bf & I have been dating, long/short distance (Vancouver/Seattle) for 13 yrs now. We met when I was 19 and he was 22. I was doing my undergrad degree and working and traveling with friends and then did my grad degree. I think that it is for this reason that I never felt the marriage "pangs". I had too many other things on my mind and the thought of getting married and all the red tape involved with moving to another country was way too overwhelming.

Now that I look back, I am grateful for our unique dating scenario. I used to miss him terribly when everyone else had their bf on their arm or close by, however, I believe that, for me as an individual, and for us, as a couple, the distance facilitated the development of a legitimate, as opposed to convenient bond, that was not stifling. We were both able to experience life and freedom on our own terms, whilst still nuturing our relationship and fostering love and communication.

Now that we are both finished taking care of "individual" business, school, for example, we are ready to get married. Now, I''m getting excited and anticipating him asking! We have been seriously talking about marriage and have been looking at rings for years. We have finally selected a diamond and a setting, that is now complete

and I''m just waiting for the proposal as he really wants it to be a "surprise" even though we both had so much input in the ring selection process.

While I may have never felt an urgent need to be married, in more recent years, I can certainly identify with being ready to join our lives and get everything started in a formal and religious sense. I eagerly anticipate his proposal. I am not, however, in any hurry to rush it, in spite of my anticipation. Marriage, as far as we are concerned, is forever, so we will do everything to increase the probability that we will be able to rise to that challenge. This is to say that we are vigilant about the continuous improvement/evolution/growth of our relationship so even though we are not yet married, we''re not working towards a "wedding day", we are working towards a successful marriage.

To whoever said it, I have no tangible explanation as to why, however, I understand completely when you say that you feel different being a wife, as opposed to a gf. I imagine, as silly as it may sound after being together for so long, that I may well feel the same when my time comes. Maybe the title of "wife" just lends an air of legitimacy due to societal norms??

Sorry for the diatribe if it is unclear ... I had a lot to say but wanted to give you the Cliff Notes version, if possible ... I guess not.

 

[anchor31]

bee''s comments about people in Ireland mostly marrying over 25 is interesting. The average age for the first marriage in Canada is 28.5 for women and 30.6 for men. Qc has the highest average at 30.4 for women and 31.9 for men. Quebec is also the province where there is the least marriages, with 54% of married couples versus 68% in the rest of the country. So, was there any social pressure for J and I to get married? Not in the least. At 23/26, we''ll be 6-7 years below average, and when I was engaged at 21 I got a lot of comments from school peer about how young I was.

So why do it, and why so young? It''s so easy to just move in together and become de facto spouses, why pay thousands of dollars for a ceremony to get a piece of paper? Thing is, most Quebecers are not aware that a de facto union does not have the same legal standings as marriage (unless papers are signed, and it then becomes a civil union) and I want to protect my spouse and our future children, so I will not take that chance. Those legal papers are not "just papers", they are extremely important in case something happens to me, J or both of us (God forbid...).

Why then, get married and not just sign papers for a civil union? For us, it''s simply a question of values. Unlike many of our peers, we are very tradiional in our values; we are both family-oriented and it was important for us to be married before starting this family. For me, it was important to be married (or soon-to-be) before even starting my life with him; I would not move in with him and live as his wife unless I was at least on my way to becoming his wife. Finally, as Christians it was extremely important for us to have our union officialized and blessed by the Church.

It''s probably the combination of all this that lead us to marry at a younger age. I may be naive, but I don''t seem marriage as "settling down" and the comments I got from peers about "not wanting to travel first" or that sort of thing make little sense to me. Why can''t I do those things while married? Being a wife won''t stop me from going to grad school or travelling... There''s no law against it or anything. If a girl can do those things with a live-in boyfrind, I certainly can do them with a husband.

 

[brooklyngirl]

Anchor, ITA!

Ther is no reason that marriage, in and of itself, should stop anyone from traveling, going to school, etc. I tend to think that it''s a cop out for people who live with their SO''s in a LTR to say that they don''t want to get married -- what they''re doing is the same thing in practice (sans paperwork). Just my 0.02.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 1/9/2008 10:21:47 AM
Author: anchor31

So why do it, and why so young? It's so easy to just move in together and become de facto spouses, why pay thousands of dollars for a ceremony to get a piece of paper? Thing is, most Quebecers are not aware that a de facto union does not have the same legal standings as marriage (unless papers are signed, and it then becomes a civil union) and I want to protect my spouse and our future children, so I will not take that chance. Those legal papers are not 'just papers', they are extremely important in case something happens to me, J or both of us (God forbid...).

It's probably the combination of all this that lead us to marry at a younger age. I may be naive, but I don't seem marriage as 'settling down' and the comments I got from peers about 'not wanting to travel first' or that sort of thing make little sense to me. Why can't I do those things while married? Being a wife won't stop me from going to grad school or travelling... There's no law against it or anything. If a girl can do those things with a live-in boyfrind, I certainly can do them with a husband.

GREAT THREAD!

On the first item, looking back on my marriage (and with the benefit of a lot of counseling), the only "good" reason for me having married him was exactly that statement: I wanted to protect my child (or that's how I rationalized it). I got pregnant before I was married (birth control failure, not intentional - I posted previously on this board how it happened) and that didn't freak me out so much because I was 31, already finished most of my education, had a great, high-paying job and owned my own condo. I had not been dating my son's father that long, so it was a different scenario than, say, if the father were a long-time boyfriend and marriage was something that'd already come up in conversation. There was no real reason for me to get married except for the pressure I got from people around me, wanting to know when I was going to "do the right thing." That pressure is pervasive and is very strong, and I caved into it even though I knew in my mind/heart that I was perfectly able to raise a child on my own and I was not 100% sure that my son's father was my Mister Right. People WILL be relentless into trying to brainwash you into thinking that marriage is "necessary" to protect your children. However, realistically in this day and age, if a woman has a good income and a good education/job skills, owns her own home or is able to rent/lease a decent place to live and has her head on straight, her raising a child alone is better than raising one with the wrong man. In my case and again, in retrospect, I married my son's father because I wanted him to have a "traditional" family environment (and since I was raised by a widow who did not remarry until I was grown, something I did not have). BUT, instead, my son got to experience two parents who did not get along and then experience a divorce and a change of residence. Marriage DID NOT protect my son and was a bad idea for me.

I believe in marriage as a settling down, in the sense that you can get into the mode of building a life with another person and know that that person supports who you are and what you want to do. Just this morning, my boyfriend of 2 years (we don't live together but spend nights in each other's homes) made a crack about marriage, in the sense that, "Yeah, I already went through 20 years of that insantity." And I said, "Hey, now. I think of your situation - and mine - as a bad choice. Just because I get sick on spaghetti at one resturant doesn't mean that spaghetti is bad....it just means that the restaurant sucks and I should eat somewhere else sometime! We just picked the wrong people. I still believe that marriage can work if you choose the right person and want the same things from it." See, I WANT to settle down. I'm going to be 40 in a couple months and want to be in a situation where I can plan the rest of my life, vacations, retirement, etc. with someone that will be in it with me for the long haul. But that's not to say that I would abandon my life if I got married. I still have friends and interests that my boyfriend is not necessarily interested in, and I won't give those up. For example, a friend of mine and I were both punk rockers as teenagers. We didn't know each other then (we met through work), but we still like that music and talk about going to NYC to clubs, for old-time's sake. My boyfriend likes classic and Southern rock - he does not understand punk AT ALL. So, if we got married, I wouldn't give up my love of the muisic, nor would I give up the opportunity to go somewhere with my friend. My taste in art and movies are also slightly different than his. So, if I wanted to go to an art exhibit or independent film and my boyfriend wanted to stay home, it would be awful to not feel like I could just go with a friend or alone. I do this a lot, and it's perfectly OK. My boyfriend rides a motorcycle and I don't have a license or my own yet (working on it). So a lot of the time, if I do something with the girls, he'll call his friends and go riding or start a poker game at someone's house.

Likewise, my boyfriend is a musician. He owns his own business but has also been in working bands since he was a teenager. His ex-wife hated the fact that he was in bands (even though she was attracted to him first because of them) and pressured him to give music up. She would hound him after their son was born to give it up -- and he wouldn't. Or as he explained to me, "Music is a big part of who I am. I didn't see why I couldn't be a husband and a father AND a musician. I didn't neglect my family for my music." Thing is, she married him knowing who he was. I have no problem with his being in a band, because I understand the deal. Sure, there are times when he plays a private party that I can't go to or an event on a weekend or out of state that I can't attend. But I know that a) it's part of who he is and b) I trust him. I know that when he is onstage or between sets, he considers himself a professional and NOT someone who is there to party and/or meet chicks. So, his music is just another part of our relationship. Last summer, he played several high-profile shows and there is a possibility that the band may do a short club tour in Germany, the UK and France. Am I upset? Hell NO! I hope they light fireworks and do great. I'd get a kick out of telling people, "Yeah! That's MY MAN doing all that!"

You HAVE TO have your own interests in a relationship, or else, it's unhealthy and you run the risk of becoming codependent. Settling down does not mean settling into a routine that kills who you are inside or that forces you to deny parts of yourself. And, if you don't have separate interests and things that you like that your partner doesn't, what are you going to bring to the relationship? We have the same outlook as far as ethics, things that matter to us and other basic core values, but a lot of what makes my relationship with my boyfriend so fun and interesting, and what fuels some of the cool conversations we get into, is the fact that we are not glued at the hip and have interests that we explore independently.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[firebirdgold]

When I was a LIW, I was definitely in the camp of the anxious LIW''s. I lost it more than once on this board and in front of my then bf.


It was a combination of insecurity and loss of control. When you strip away all the distractions and elaborations we come up with like age, or social pressure... I think a lot of us who have had or are having liw problems are feeling insecure.
There''s also the matter that your future and the timing of it is in his hands. That''s a very hard thing to accept, especially for us in our thirties I think.

My personal experience:
We hadn''t just talked about it, we were ''unofficially'' engaged. He had asked me to marry him, but wanted to wait and save up for the ring before doing a proper and official proposal and telling our families. As the months went by I started to worry that he had changed his mind or was having second thoughts.
As more months went by I started to have near monthly bouts of crying. When he started buying expensive games and cd collections while telling me he had only saved another $300 in the last 5 months, I worried that I wasn''t important to him.

Well, turns out he had finished saving and just wanted to surprise me. He also had always had a grand master plan of finishing his ph.d first and then proposing to me on my birthday. I have to say it was worth the 14 month wait.

Looking back, it was a good pre-marriage lesson in trust, shared control, and communication. In a marriage you have to trust the other person totally, and you are voluntarily giving partial control of your life and future over to another person. (and the guy learns why communication is so important)

I do wish I had been able to enjoy the time rather than stress about it.

Anyway, just my $.02 as a graduate.

 

[bee*]

Date: 1/9/2008 10:21:47 AM
Author: anchor31

It''s probably the combination of all this that lead us to marry at a younger age. I may be naive, but I don''t seem marriage as ''settling down'' and the comments I got from peers about ''not wanting to travel first'' or that sort of thing make little sense to me. Why can''t I do those things while married? Being a wife won''t stop me from going to grad school or travelling... There''s no law against it or anything. If a girl can do those things with a live-in boyfrind, I certainly can do them with a husband.

For me the whole thing about wanting to travel before getting married is because I grew up so much as a person when I was traveling and you do learn about yourself so much. I travelled with D and while I know we have plenty more travels ahead of us when we get married, I was really glad that I''ve done it so much before I got married. I know it''s not for everyone to do it before they get married but for me it was a must.

 

[kelpie]

I don''t really have any advice to contribute, just my frustrations to share. I have been with my beau for 3.5 years. We bought a farm together and live as if we are married (i.e. extricating ourselves would be impossible and devastating). Even though commitment isn’t an issue, I still I don’t think he feels ready for the psychological step of marriage. I think it would make him feel too “grown up” despite our frumpy smug married couple lifestyle which we would not have any other way.
It’s really starting to bother me that he bought the farm but opted to only lease the cow. It gets to me because he has what I perceive to be a dangerous job (i.e. frequent trips to Iraq) and god forbid if something should ever happen to him I would always regret that I never got to marry the love of my life. How do I make him understand how important being married is to me without pushing him to do something before he’s ready?

 

[Erin]

Kelpie I absolutely mean no disrespect to your lifestyle or your decisions. In fact your post makes me sad because I was in a very similar situation - minus the Iraq part.
We had everything together and had for years but he was afraid of getting married. Why then not take that next? final? step towards ultimate commitment. Especially since he knew how important it was to me and had said so from the beginning.

This is why I will not live with a man prior to marriage or at the very least a planned wedding in the immediate future. There was nothing in it for my ex to get married. He was unsure of the difference a marriage would make and had everything he needed to be happy.

It especially angered me that despite how important he knew it was for me, at the age of 30 and after 5 years of dating, he didn't see the difference in actually marrying me - even if it meant driving to the courthouse on our lunch hours.

On a sidenote this really pi$$ed me off: One one weekends occasion he offered to go to the courthouse the very next week and get married if that's what would really make me happy (granted he hadn't proposed but he had a ring for two years already) and I said of course then. I'll give up my dream of having a traditional wedding with pictures and a dress. But I want my parents there. All of the sudden that was a deal breaker. I think he didn't think I'd go for it. Cruel.

 

[ChinaCat]

Ok I''ll bite. I wasn''t going to, simply because I think the other posts have been very eloquent and informative. However, someone said they hoped other recent marrieds would share, so I will.

I never was one that dreamed of being married. It seemed like something boring "grown-ups" did and something that I assumed I would do one day, but was in no hurry. Where I grew up, everyone is married by 22. However, I moved away for college and stayed in my adopted town for about 10 years- a place where nobody even considers getting married until way in their 30''s (at least in my crowd/peer group).

I have to admit, I would be a bit depressed when someone married young, it seemed so boring and staid. It seemed like their lives were over. I know this is ridiculous, but the people I knew marrying young didn''t travel or develop new interests, they stayed home and had babies and basically lived the lives of their parents (but in their 20''s).

I met my now HH when I was almost 30. Although I was quite aware of that oh no, I am turning 30 and not married/having babies undercurrent, I really wasn''t ready to be married at 30. I was too independent and selfish. I was more worried that I wasn''t at the place I wanted to be career-wise. And also a bit worried that I would never feel grown-up enough to be married.

HH and I dated for almost 3 years before we were engaged, and I was definitely ready by then! Much to my surprise, I was definitely an agitated LIW. For me, it was much more about feeling settled in my future, and the shocking lack of control I felt over my own life. HH and I discussed marriage, we knew it was the next step, and he was saving for a ring. We were doing long distance though, and I felt like my entire career and life was on hold (since we had decided that I would be the one to move)until he actually proposed and I really resented it. I was 30 something, educated, accomplished, used to making my own decisions, and was stuck waiting around for some boy so I could plan the rest of my life. Infuriating! However, like IndyJones, looking back, it was silly. I wish I had practiced some patience and just enjoyed that time.

I think sometimes it is easy for those of us on the other side to get annoyed by the frenzied emotions of the LIW, because once you are past it, it is easy to see the logical part of the situation. You know he''s committed, you know he is planning to propose, so chill out. BUT when you are there, it is not that easy. I find myself thinking that when I read some LIW posts, but then I make myself remember how I felt, and I quickly remember I had days just like the LIW. And you know what? It is annoying- it''s annoying to read, but it''s more annoying to feel that way all the time.

I see LIW in two categories. Those that are in committed relationships that have had the right conversations with their partners, and are just anxious/frustrated at having no control. These LIW are just venting, in general, which is smart to do here and not to vent to their significant others, or single friends! I think that 1) they need to feel validated in feeling this way; and 2) then should be reminded that they are lucky and on the right path and are ruining it for themselves and their partner and to chill out! I thinik most are amenable to this, and really this is what they want to hear.

The other category worries me a bit. When an LIW is frustrated b/c their SO doesn''t seem to want to have the conversation about where they are in the relationship, or when the LIW is too scared/intimidated/pick an adjective to even have the conversation, this is a huge red flag. Why in the world do you want to marry someone that you can''t even have this conversation with? Do you know how scary that is???

Marriage is not "fun". It is not a fairy-tale, or romantic. It is pretty mundane on a daily basis. You have to discuss things like who does the dishes, about budgets and expenses, about why you can''t stand that they do X and they can''t stand that you do y. Mostly you have to compromise. You have to go to their family''s house for Christmas, even if it''s depressing and you don''t like a parent and you''d so much rather be with your family. You have to do things that you just don''t feel like doing, all of the time. And if you cannot even have a conversation about the most important next step in your lives together, then there is no way you will be able to navigate money and religion and kids and family and all of the choices you have to make together.

I have seen marriages that start like this, and I have never seen one that is working. Marriage is HARD enough when you can communicate and love each other, it is impossible without trust and communication. And a bad marriage is so much worse than a bad break-up. It is not the same thing.

On the other hand, I have to say that I simply love being married. I love every minute of it. I love the mundaneness, but I was ready for it. I had all the adventures and misadventures of single life, and I was ready to leave it behind. Knowing that there is someone to come home to every night, that he has my back no matter what, that every decision I make now I have to make with him, is amazing. I am so content. But if I had married before I was ready, I would have been miserable, and jumping out of my skin.

Ok sorry for the short story! Ending now, if you''ve even gotten through it all.

 

[HollyS]

equestrienne: you are the voice of reason that all LIWs should listen to very carefully. There are no greater words of wisdom than those you posted on 1/6. You are a breath of fresh air; and I might add, a darn fine armchair psychologist.

 

[kelpie]

SP- Thanks for sharing your story. I can’t believe his disregard for your feelings after so many years. Although the long road was tragic, I’m sure in the end you were like “thank goodness I got rid him then and there!”

I realize I made a trade off in starting a life with him before marriage. It postponed his feeling that marriage was necessary in order to advance our relationship, however it meant that we could explore each other and be really certain we right for one another first. We are also probably at much better places in our lives early on with our leveraged capabilities. So I may have jinxed myself out of getting married anytime soon by jumping the gun, but we’ve had 2.5 happy years of living together. Now I get the impression that he thinks I’m the “modern enlightened type” who doesn’t give a hoot about marital status (let alone expensive bling!) I DO care though, especially more so than before since now he''s strapped to helicopters over Baghdad from time to time.

He wants to do things like spend 2 years in Columbia for our job assignments and I’ve dropped hints such as telling him I could not feel secure in moving overseas until we are married. That hasn’t opened up dialogue…I guess I will address him more directly and find out what page he’s on. I know he would do it if he knew how much it mattered, but I don’t know how to discuss it with out coming across as pushy. The worst thing he could do is marry me when he’s not ready just to make me happy. Anyone have ideas on how to bring up the topic?

 

[janinegirly]

chinacat--your post was great and 100% spot on. I couldn't agree w/you more. I also married later (mid 30's) after 3 yrs of dating, 1yr engaged. I was a very agitated LIW for sure! Not the first 2 yrs when I was all about being easy going and not being driven by shallow wants, but things definitely shifted by the 3rd year when we'd already lived together and were clearly compatable and essentially living like man and wife. My DH just just took a verrry long time to process big decisions. Like you described, I mostly had issue with the loss of control or definitive knowledge of what would happen in my life. I wasn't involved in the ring process and we did not discuss our wedding prematurely--which is how I wanted it. I wanted things to be different before and after the engagement and for there to be SOME romance and mystery. But it made the wait very unnerving since I'd been mostly single up till then and always in control of my own destiny!

And you're right that afterwards, it was like all the stress evaporated and I was a smug engaged lady who forgot all the waiting neurosis! haha, well not really. But to make a long point shorter, you are so right about the 2 categories of LIW's. And I find that those in the 2nd category are typically in deep denial which is why they'd rather not confront the topic head on.

I also related to parts of kelpie's post (love the farm/cow comment). That combined with Starset's posting in another section about some men's views on marriage (it's not so encouraging!) reinforces how differently we view marriage than men. As long as we (ladies) are not driven by bling and wedding fantasies alone, usually alll we want is security and the psychological leap in committment which can only come with marriage and vows. Guys don't get that! They think, hey why ruin a good thing..and then they worry about things changing and that their life will turn into Everyone Loves Raymond. Usually the best way to handle this is to keep talking and communicating to make sure there is at least potential for compromise (ie willingness to marry, just not sure when). THEN start working on timelines (some don't like those, but if you want to married by a certain time, how can you ignore it?). Then it comes down to whether your bf's love you enough, that he'll do something simply because it makes you HAPPY and complete (and therefore a more balanced person). And that's the first sign of a successful marriage anyway---when one is willing to do something for the other person, even if there are fears (which is not the same as doubts!) and even if there is nothing that will necessarily be "gained" by the more reluctant party. I mean of course both will be happy and reap benefits from the marriage, but sometimes the guy just needs to see things in that light to motivate him to move forward.

I've really rambled here..hopefully some parts of my post made sense.

 

[Mannequin]

Date: 1/8/2008 12:57:17 PM
Author: Starset Princess
Okay I''ll bite.

I came onto this website googling a frustration about my bf and was directed to other women asking similar questions. I too never dated much after college, maybe the one and two dates versions but all the time. I left my medium sized town in Illinois and moved to Chicago for four years. Then I met M in a bar in the suburbs. It was so strange because I wasn''t looking and in fact was in a stage in my life where I didn''t want a boyfriend, yet there he was. We dated the remaining two years I lived up there and everything was grand.

We started talking seriously and he suggested that we moved closer to my origins to get out of the city and start a life together so I could be closer to my family. He moved his mother and sister down there too so they could be close to us. This was the likely path. And of course everyone was asking when when when. It''s hard not to believe that when ''should'' be coming. Everyone else expects it.

We spent two more years together in central Illinois - working our jobs, hanging out with friends, taking care of our animals. Every time I brought up marriage it was finances, or a house is more important (we were still renting), or getting more established. He had fears of all eyes being on him at a wedding. You name it - he could have written the excuse book. Yet, he wanted to marry me someday. But it had been six years and I couldn''t get him to commit to a PLAN so I left.

Those were agonizing LIW times for me. Sure there was societal pressure and family talk and being lapped and just sitting there waiting. Waiting. We knew three years ago we were spending the rest of our lives together - that''s why we moved down here. How do you say all that waiting and agonizing could have been cleared up with just a little communication. Maybe I''m missing the big picture, but it''s not always so cut and dry as to say - if she would have just communicated with him then she''d have a clear cut answer.

I''m proud of myself for leaving him. I won''t wait around for someone to make that kind of affect on my life. I waited too long. And here I am 32 and single. I''m very happy with where I am. And yes, there is still pressure from society and family - I guess I can''t avoid that. But at least I''m not left wondering how a man will turn his whole world upside down for you and leave you waiting to start the next ideological stage we had previously agreed upon.

Afterall, there are consequences for letting anything boil too long.

I am proud of you too, Starset. This is an excellent post and reminds me much of my own experience. I am glad that there are more strong women out there who recognize the need to shape their own destinies when the man won''t step up and commit. If only more women realized this and didn''t just sit around waiting for life/engagement to happen.

 

[kelpie]

Date: 1/9/2008 5:59:29 PM
Author: equestrienne

Date: 1/8/2008 12:57:17 PM

Author: Starset Princess


I''m proud of myself for leaving him. I won''t wait around for someone to make that kind of affect on my life. I waited too long. And here I am 32 and single. I''m very happy with where I am. And yes, there is still pressure from society and family - I guess I can''t avoid that. But at least I''m not left wondering how a man will turn his whole world upside down for you and leave you waiting to start the next ideological stage we had previously agreed upon.


Afterall, there are consequences for letting anything boil too long.

I am proud of you too, Starset. This is an excellent post and reminds me much of my own experience. I am glad that there are more strong women out there who recognize the need to shape their own destinies when the man won''t step up and commit. If only more women realized this and didn''t just sit around waiting for life/engagement to happen.

You girls rock! I felt so proud of my cousin when she had the nerve to break her engagement two months before the huge wedding she planned. She discovered her intended had a gambling problem. She confronted him and he promised he would stop and get help. When he continued to do it behind her back and he lost all the proceeds from the sale of his house she knew she had to get out. It took so much gut, but better than marrying the wrong guy. I think she also realized she was in love with the idea of marriage and not the guy.

 

[Mannequin]

Date: 1/9/2008 4:21:14 PM
Author: HollyS
equestrienne: you are the voice of reason that all LIWs should listen to very carefully. There are no greater words of wisdom than those you posted on 1/6. You are a breath of fresh air; and I might add, a darn fine armchair psychologist.

Thank you HollyS, I am blushing...

I truly hope my experiences and snippets of advice are helpful to those seeking answers here, especially the younger LIWs.

Ladies: You have YOUR ENTIRE LIFE ahead of you to live and learn and love - don''t rush the engagement process because it all goes by so fast once you get started in making a life together. DO NOT settle for anyone that doesn''t give you the utmost in respect, truthfulness, and common courtesy. If you are not getting 110% of any of these things, you may not ever get them later because marriage doesn''t automatically change character. Leopards never change their spots. Most importantly: YOU are valuable and your needs and dreams and goals are important - don''t you ever compromise on yourself and on becoming the best person you can be for a man and his plans.

Please please please remember - you have the right to walk away and start fresh if you aren''t getting what you want or need or deserve, no matter what anyone thinks, says, or does. There were two threads in particular that stood out to me in the last year - Becky P''s thread - that embody this very idea. These ladies showed INCREDIBLE strength in the face of adversity, all brought on by their SOs, and they should be applauded for how they handled their situations.

 

[firebirdgold]

Hear Hear!
Not only can you walk away, but the rewards (in the long run) can be amazing. It''s a horrifying thought at the time, but one day you''ll look back and be sooo thankful you did. I know, I went through it twice before.

(third time''s the charm!

)

Ending a long term relationship or even an engagement doesn''t mean love and marriage will never come your way. And it doesn''t mean that you didn''t try hard enough or that you don''t have what it takes to make a marriage work. Far from it.


I know this isn''t very helpful for the women who are already living with their bfs, but it really is a good idea not to move in together before you''re engaged. 1) it''s hard to get out so you might stay with and even marry a guy you wouldn''t otherwise. 2) you lose leverage (even the best of men can use some incentive sometimes). 3) Some men start thinking it''s close enough and why rock the boat. and 4) If you need to move in together to be sure you''re compatible before getting engaged... you probably should keep looking. (4 is more applicable to women in their thirties than early twenties, btw)


Communication is so key. It is true that talking about getting engaged can challenge even couples with typically good communication. However, it turns out that there are an awful lot of difficult conversations in the future of a married couple! Learning to be honest and open as a Liw and learning ways to compromise and deal with each other''s emotional sore points was wonderful ''training'' for being married.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 1/9/2008 7:22:02 PM
Author: IndieJones

I know this isn''t very helpful for the women who are already living with their bfs, but it really is a good idea not to move in together before you''re engaged. 1) it''s hard to get out so you might stay with and even marry a guy you wouldn''t otherwise. 2) you lose leverage (even the best of men can use some incentive sometimes). 3) Some men start thinking it''s close enough and why rock the boat. and 4) If you need to move in together to be sure you''re compatible before getting engaged... you probably should keep looking. (4 is more applicable to women in their thirties than early twenties, btw) ]

I can understand where you''re coming from on this, Indie, but I think it''s actually a good idea to live together before you''re engaged. It''s different for everyone, of course, and you should be sure you''re ready to live together before you take that step, but I think it can be a very good way to judge how well you will work as a couple in dealing with day to day things like bills, chores, etc. It also allows you to relax a bit as a couple and make sure that you''re capable of doing things independently while you''re in the same house/room.

That''s just my opinion, of course. Also, it probably depends on the guy you''re with. If you''re in a situation where your SO dances around the issue, it may not be the best idea to live together if you''re marriage minded.

Hopefully that wasn''t too convoluted. I just think there are two good sides to this issue and while it may not be for everyone, for some couples, living together is a good choice. Actually, once Kris and I started getting serious, my mother actually suggested it!

 

[Erin]

See this is where I have to agree with Indie.

You don't need to live together prior to marriage to find out if he's the one.
What are you going to actually find out by living together that will make marriage a deal breaker? He's a slob? He's a compulsive neatfreak? He doesn't brush his teeth before bed? He has a collection of **** so big he could open his own store? He talks to his mommy every night on the phone?

I don't know. If you are serious about your SO and you haven't already figured these things out by being with him as a steady gf then maybe you don't know him well enough for marriage. I don't think there's much out there you'll find out unless he's a good 'hider' in which case he'd probably hide it from you in marriage as well.

My point is, anything you learn cohabitating with each other prior to marriage is the same learning curve you'd have if when you move in together because you're married, or almost married. I just don't see what dealbreakers you could learn of - making the assumption that we all adore our SOs and know they're not perfect.

Because we lived together it took longer for me to break up and move out - I should have done it a full year sooner but with it comes many logistic and financial hurdles that you have to plan BEFORE you break up. You have to have a plan. It's so much to consider when deep inside all you feel is hurt. It makes it hard to deal with all the other crap like separating assets and whatnot.

 

[janinegirly]

to offer a different perspective, I lived with my then BF for one year. We had dated 2 years prior and were engaged after exactly one year of living together. To each their own, but to us it was a necessary next step in our relationship. I do believe that you don't really see all sides of a person until you live with them 24/7, and in my DH's case, he was previously engaged (and lived with his ex-fi) and things got very bumpy during their engagement (while living together), resulting in them breaking it off--so for him, he was extra cautious. Anyway, when you are living with your bf 24/7, it's different than just wkends, or a few nights a week--it's seeing them when they're cranky, or need space or had a bad day. It's seeing all sides, good, bad and ugly and having to be around them through it all. I agree people can have just as successful unions without living together, but both are valid options depending on the couple.

HOWEVER, I would agree that living together (if you're looking for marriage) only works if you both are honest and agree that this is a step TOWARDS marriage with the end goal of engagement within a reasonable amount of time. Meaning you dont' need to live together for years before you figure out if you're compatable..just 6 mo's-1 year is probably sufficient! And typically if you've been dating a long time and are willing to move in together, than marriage is a logical conclusion.

 

[ladypirate]

Janine, thank you--that is exactly what I was trying to say, only you were far more eloquent.

 

[kelpie]

Living together thrusts you out of the honeymoon period and into what real life will be with this person. I think that''s so important to experience before you commit for life. (obviously there are downsides as I lamented above). Besides, I imagine once you finally do get married you experience a resurgence in the honeymooniness.

 

[anchor31]

Date: 1/9/2008 11:09:16 AM
Author: sandia_rose

GREAT THREAD!

On the first item, looking back on my marriage (and with the benefit of a lot of counseling), the only ''good'' reason for me having married him was exactly that statement: I wanted to protect my child (or that''s how I rationalized it). I got pregnant before I was married (birth control failure, not intentional - I posted previously on this board how it happened) and that didn''t freak me out so much because I was 31, already finished most of my education, had a great, high-paying job and owned my own condo. I had not been dating my son''s father that long, so it was a different scenario than, say, if the father were a long-time boyfriend and marriage was something that''d already come up in conversation. There was no real reason for me to get married except for the pressure I got from people around me, wanting to know when I was going to ''do the right thing.'' That pressure is pervasive and is very strong, and I caved into it even though I knew in my mind/heart that I was perfectly able to raise a child on my own and I was not 100% sure that my son''s father was my Mister Right. People WILL be relentless into trying to brainwash you into thinking that marriage is ''necessary'' to protect your children. However, realistically in this day and age, if a woman has a good income and a good education/job skills, owns her own home or is able to rent/lease a decent place to live and has her head on straight, her raising a child alone is better than raising one with the wrong man. In my case and again, in retrospect, I married my son''s father because I wanted him to have a ''traditional'' family environment (and since I was raised by a widow who did not remarry until I was grown, something I did not have). BUT, instead, my son got to experience two parents who did not get along and then experience a divorce and a change of residence. Marriage DID NOT protect my son and was a bad idea for me.

Bridget in Connecticut.

What I meant by wanting to protect my spouse and children wasn''t about not being to support my children myself. As I mentionned in my previous post, I have been experiencing no social pressure to get married whatsoever, I live in a culture that does not believe in marriage for the most part. A de facto spouse legally cannot be a power of attorney and is not considered a next of kin. That could create huge problems for my spouse in the case that I should become incapacitated or die, as he would have no rights whatsoever to make decisions for me or to my property.