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SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!!

Veltiesmom

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Little sis was shown the following pear diamond (3.00 H SI1, GIA) today. I'll post a photo in a moment.

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?rep...ename=GIA/Dispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

My reservations are the Fair symmetry, the 50.6% depth, and the inclusions which include a chip. I can't read plots very well - is that massive green indentation the chip?

What does she need to worry about with a very shallow diamond? She thought it looked great (although only saw it in office lighting) and liked that it had almost no bow tie. Any concerns beyond pure appearance?

My instincts are to tell her to run, but I'm hoping for some advice that's a little more concrete. Any help would be much appreciated!

Oh - price with rose gold solitaire setting was $30,500. (We are trying to find out the breakdown between stone and setting but don't have it yet.)

THANK YOU!!!
 

Veltiesmom

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

Here's a photo. Hope it works. The diamond on the left is the 3.00 H. By comparison, the stone on the right is a 2.83 GIA I.

pear2.jpg
 
Q

Queenie60

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

It appears that the chip is on the right side of the stone, close to or on the girdle by viewing the plot on GIA report. I would not purchase a stone graded "fair" on GIA report. There are plenty other stones out there and paying $30,000 for a "fair" grade on a stone is not advised. I would rather have a smaller stone with an excellent cut. You will like it better and get much more sparkle. Keep looking.
 

alamana

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

I think that is WAY too shallow. I know that the larger you get with pears, the less inventory there is and so you might not be able to be as strict as you might otherwise be about proportions -- but I would never consider a pear of that depth. It's going to look relatively dull.
 
Q

Queenie60

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

What are the specs on the 2.83?
 

Veltiesmom

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

Queenie60|1447726743|3950574 said:
What are the specs on the 2.83?

I only know it was a 2.83 I VS1. She didn't like it.
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

This is a perfect example of why buying by the numbers simply won't work with Fancy Shaped diamonds.
Let's talk about the downsides of a pear shape that someone has seen, and likes, with a depth of 50%.
1) the stone will look much larger than most other pear shapes of similar weight. This can cause huge problems when your friends get jealous.
2) see #1.
There is absolutely no inherent problem with a 50% depth pear for that reason alone.
Do some shallow pear shapes look ugly?
Yes.
Do some 65% depth pear shapes look ugly?
Yes.
If a stone has a pleasing shape, and nice light performance to the eye, there's simply no reason not to consider a 50% depth pear shape stone.

Chip- based on the report, the chip is of no concern of the stone is priced right. I base this opinion on the fact it's an SI1 with other imperfections. They are all going to be small.

These are general comments as opposed to specific comments on the stone in question. I'd have to examine it personally to make a proper assessment, but nothing stands out as bad from the pic.
 

tyty333

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

I would have concerns that depth would affect the look of the stone in various lighting (or lack of lighting) conditions.
Can she take the stone home and look at it in different lighting conditions? Lets face it, pears have a hard time returning
light already...they dont need any other possible issues that might affect the light. Can she get an aset image on it?

If not, can she buy an aset and use it on the stone?

The stone does face up larger but it's not worth it if it can't face up larger and have decent light return for a pear.

Also, the price seems a little high for me for a fair stone.
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

tyty- having been here ( with you) as long as I have, I totally get your concern.
But remember, light return is not a simple "more is better" question- especially in fancy shapes.
In some ways, the larger surface area of a "spready" pear shape can make up for what we would identify (as PS ASET users), as more brilliance.
I suspect the ASET for the pear in question will show leakage, and more green than red.
The picture which has been posted, while not really good for assessing light performance in detail, does show a bit of what I'm speaking of.
The pear on the right seems to have larger bright flashes, and little or no leakage as compared to the stone on the left. Yet it's not more attractive.
Of course I have found that many of the most attractive spready fancy shaped stones use leakage as part of a formula to make them attractive.
No diamond performs best in every lighting environment. IN the cases of well cut spready diamonds, there are indeed many common lighting environments where they will look better than diamonds with less leakage and more red in aset.
And vice versa.
 

Dancing Fire

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

$30K for a good/fair stone with a chip + an extremely thick girdle?... :knockout: There are much easier ways to throw away $30K.
 

Dancing Fire

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

Rockdiamond|1447787590|3950874 said:
Chip- based on the report, the chip is of no concern of the stone is priced right. I base this opinion on the fact it's an SI1 with other imperfections. They are all going to be small.
David, you know what is really strange?
The more problem the more you love it!... :confused: $30k is not a good price for a stone with so many problems... :wall:
 

Gypsy

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

Dancing Fire|1447825185|3951143 said:
$30K for a good/fair stone with a chip + an extremely thick girdle?... :knockout: There are much easier ways to throw away $30K.


THIS.
 

Gypsy

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ariel144

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

From the picture the diamond on the left is definitely more beautiful than the one on the right. Looks great to me and I've been looking at pear shapes for quite a while...she is seeing the stone in person and what she likes is the only thing that counts. For some reason pears,marquis and trilliants seem to handle a shallow cut better than other fancy shapes. It is so hard to find great faceting on a pear so that you don't get a bow tie. The 8 main star facet ones are extremely rare and are mainly found in the antique faceted pears and don't seem to produce a bow tie.

Her 3c H has 6 main star facets and is an high color which is important as pears tend to show color more.

There was a luscious antique 5c pear on ebay and the depth was only 43%! The faceting looked lovely, but the depth was rather a big surprise. But it has the 8 main star faceting which is so rare and IMO makes the best looking pear stones ...of course I love the antique pears best. The listing has expired but maybe you can still see it from this link. Seemed way over priced though but the antique setting was amazing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Platinum-Art-Deco-Engagement-Ring-5-07-Carat-Pear-Shape-Diamond-GIA-/291286795963?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=g9gKiTIQeFptBntiAj9s2z5Vr4I%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I agree with David"s opinion on depth of fancy cuts.

Yoram cut an antique pear that David has on DBL and it is lovely....8 main pear, oh and the depth 42%!

http://www.diamondsbylauren.com/index.php/jewelry/loose-colorless-diamond-170ct-j-si2-old-cut-pear-really-cool-cut-r5955

I don't pay much attention to the symmetry and polish on fancy shapes any more. Many are graded good and fair it seems.
I would not worry about a 50.6% depth on a pear as long as the faceting is nice. It also has a nice small table 52% which will give the pear a higher crown which is very good. The faceting on her 3c H SI1 looks lovely to me, nor do I think it is over priced for a 3c H color.
 

Sphene

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

If she has 30k to throw away and loves it it looks ok - but Gypsy gave her some great options
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

I never commented on the price specifically. Might be a great deal, it might be expensive – I did not take the time to research the price for the weight.
What this does highlight is that it's much more difficult to try to assess the stone from the GIA report then it might seem.
When GIA grades a stone SI1 clarity, and there's as many characteristics as there are on this stones report, each of those characteristics is going to be very small.
For this reason, a diamond where GIA has noted a "chip" could be way preferable to one that has only one crystal. This could be based on the clarity, or the clarity in combination with many other factors including cut brilliance color and cost. Especially with large stones, each one is unique and must be judged holistically all these factors . It's not like the dealer can just go out and find an identical stone without a "chip"

Using the term "throw away $30,000" is just scare tactics. And not helpful to someone looking for advice on a given stone .
 

diamondseeker2006

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

There are much better choices out there. I would not let depth be the only deciding factor. It is hard to tell anything without seeing the facet patterns up close.

That said, I am in love with the antique pear apparently cut by Yoram (other than I can't handle that clarity)! Are you getting more of those in, David????
 

Veltiesmom

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

I appreciate all of the input and I know my sister does, too! Here are some more photos of the 3.00 H alongside that 2.83 I.

It's hard to tell without having seen it in person, but it seems to have more of a crushed ice look to it. She is drawn to the color, the lack of any bow tie and, let's be honest, the big face up.



pear5.jpg

pear4_0.jpg

pear3_0.jpg
 

Veltiesmom

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

It seems strange to me that the stone doesn't face up even bigger than it does considering how extremely shallow it is. Perhaps due to the extra weight trapped in girdle? :confused:
 

chrono

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

Yes, part of that weight is hidden in the extremely thick girdle.
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

It's very common for a pear shape to have part of the girdle very thick- there's nothing whatsoever nefarious about that aspect in and of itself. The weight of 3.00 might mean that the cutter might have taken steps to keep the 3ct size- BUT- that's an assumption, not necessarily a factor.
IN terms of the size- I just checked the worldwide database for pear diamonds that weigh exactly 3cts.
There were 123 diamonds, with just 11 coming in at a greater length than 12.72mm
This is a large stone for 3cts.

Veltiesmom- you mentioned that the larger stone might have a "crushed ice" appearance- and no bow tie.
IN many cases a pear brilliant will show a bow tie while a pear modified brilliant ( like the 3.00ct) shows a different type of light performance - like the much maligned ( but only maligned here on PS) crushed ice which can eliminate the bow tie entirely.
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

diamondseeker2006|1447856323|3951246 said:
There are much better choices out there. I would not let depth be the only deciding factor. It is hard to tell anything without seeing the facet patterns up close.

That said, I am in love with the antique pear apparently cut by Yoram (other than I can't handle that clarity)! Are you getting more of those in, David????

Thank you DS!
We do have some new Yoram stones coming in- but he does not cut all that many pears though:)
 

diamondseeker2006

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

Thanks, David! I always enjoy seeing his stones. I'll be watching!
 

Dancing Fire

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

Rockdiamond|1447850118|3951212 said:
Using the term "throw away $30,000" is just scare tactics. And not helpful to someone looking for advice on a given stone .

David...scare tactic?
:errrr: ... the GIA report say good/fair stone with a chip + an extremely thick girdle. If doesn't scare you then IDK what will... :confused:
How about a poor/poor stone would that scare you?
 

Dancing Fire

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

Rockdiamond|1447868234|3951343 said:
It's very common for a pear shape to have part of the girdle very thick- there's nothing whatsoever nefarious about that aspect in and of itself. The weight of 3.00 might mean that the cutter might have taken steps to keep the 3ct size- BUT- that's an assumption, not necessarily a factor.

Assumption? really?. A 3ct stone with an extremely thick girdle? David, were you born yesterday?... :bigsmile:
 

ariel144

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

Rockdiamond|1447868343|3951346 said:
diamondseeker2006|1447856323|3951246 said:
There are much better choices out there. I would not let depth be the only deciding factor. It is hard to tell anything without seeing the facet patterns up close.

That said, I am in love with the antique pear apparently cut by Yoram (other than I can't handle that clarity)! Are you getting more of those in, David????

Thank you DS!
We do have some new Yoram stones coming in- but he does not cut all that many pears though:)

David,

Can Yoram recut an already existing pear into a "pear modified(?) brilliant" with 8 star facets to give it the faceting of an antique pear? Interesting that GIA calls the 8 facet pears "modified brilliants" and the 8 main cushions "cushion brilliants".

The pears Gypsy listed on JA all have 7 star facets. It seems the modern pear cuts always leave off the star facet that goes down into the point, which brings the culet more towards the middle of the length which IMO gets rid of the bow tie. All 3 are nice stones with minimal or no bow tie.

Also JBG has some nice antique pears...8 facets. this 2c is perfection with the rare high G color and high clarity:

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/2-01-to-3-00/2-01ct-antique-pear-shape-diamond-gia-g-vs1#.VkzcAmSrTL9

The friend of the OP looking at that 3c H might want to save $10k and get this lovely 2c antique pear.
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

HI Df,
I know you bought an AMAZING stone this year. Kudos!

Personally, I've "thrown away" more than a couple of million bucks this year buying diamonds.
I don't let the report "scare me".
My main focus is always the diamond- of course I also look at the report as well- but I'd never reject or accept a stone based solely on a GIA report.
From my perspective, if the price is right being scared away by things that don't affect the beauty is silly.
Eliminating a stone because someone on the web says it's got bad numbers is something I've never done. Avoiding a stone that "scares" other people on the web who are not looking at the diamond? Never.

As I've written- eliminating a stone because it has a minuscule "chip" according the the GIA report does not make sense if one is looking at the diamond.
Same for depth, same for girdle concerns.
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

Ariel- regarding PB vs PMB

The main difference in GIA terminology is based on the pavilion mains continuing uninterrupted from culet to girdle. PB does, PMB will have additional "skirt" facets below the girdle.

Much as it would be "easier" if one or the other automatically avoided a bow tie- or encouraged it. But in reality there's averages, but no hard fast rules.

Recutting existing pear stones to get to where Yoram gets, is generally not possible.
Believe me I wish......
 

ariel144

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Re: SUPER shallow pear with questionable inclusions - HELP!!

Rockdiamond|1447885483|3951481 said:
Ariel- regarding PB vs PMB

The main difference in GIA terminology is based on the pavilion mains continuing uninterrupted from culet to girdle. PB does, PMB will have additional "skirt" facets below the girdle.

Much as it would be "easier" if one or the other automatically avoided a bow tie- or encouraged it. But in reality there's averages, but no hard fast rules.

Recutting existing pear stones to get to where Yoram gets, is generally not possible.
Believe me I wish......

Me too...thx!
 
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