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STUPID MISTAKE when getting diamond appraised at HAROLD WEINSTEIN

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ma1lyc

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arggg! I feel so stupid! I made an appoinment with Harold Weinstein to get my diamond appraised, and like everyone the secretary asked me to bring the gia report with me. Of course I never planned to give it to them beforehand, but to compare afterwards. When I went to get my diamond appraised today, i never gave them any grading reports, but just handed over the diamond that was folded in a tissue paper. I then realized later that the COLOR, CLARITY, TABLE, DEPTH% as well as GIA CERTIFIED was printed right on the back of the tissue paper!!!!
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I know that Harold Weinstein is extremely creditble and strict on their grading.... but i''m afraid that this may have affected their grading ( so much for independent appraiser)
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Everything turned out the same as the GIA grading... although they did plot the crystals correctly without seeing the the GIA plot. Should I see what happens when I bring the diamond in again to get it appraised once it is set?

Also, I didn''t get any grading on the PAV, CROWN, CULET etc... Does Harold Weinstein not grade those parts? or do you have to ask specifically? It is a cushion cut diamond does this make a difference?
 
Hi ma1lyc--

I hope i can calm some of your stress by posting this message. When you take a diamond to a reputable company for appraisal here is what will happen. The diamond needs to be graded by a Graduate Gemologist (GG). The diamond MUST be examined lose (when a diamond is graded mounted only an estimate can be given...to get a true grade, the diamond must be loose). An appraiser will ask for for any reports only to confirm the diamond is what the report says it is. A GIA report is accurate 99.9% of the time. an independant appraise can grade color, clarity and cut. However, most appraisers do not have the resources that GIA has in grading a diamond. The equipent that GIA uses is far to expensive for every appraiser to have on site. As far as angles and measurements, unless done by machine, will always have a slight varience (often with a machine there can be a slgith varience). Rest assured, if you purchased a GIA certified diamond and visually like the diamond that your purchased, an appraisal is just a formality. Your more than likely made a good choice and should enjoy it. No professional will allow anything to affect their grading as it is a reflection on their creditability and no professional jeweler will ever do that. So, if you trusted them before, there should be no reason to not trust them now. Enjoy your your diamond and best wishes.
 
When a diamond has a GIA or AGS certificate, I can''t see that any more is needed from an appraiser other than verification that the stone is indeed the one on the cert. Most diamonds come with a statement of value for insurance purposes.
 
Date: 5/12/2007 7:24:49 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
When a diamond has a GIA or AGS certificate, I can''t see that any more is needed from an appraiser other than verification that the stone is indeed the one on the cert. Most diamonds come with a statement of value for insurance purposes.
Click to expand...

There are bunches reasons that people choose to get independent appraisals on new purchases but second guessing the GIA is usually not one of them. The biggest is to properly document the item in the case of a loss, something that is not contained on the lab report and that most selling jewelers don’t provide but clients are regularly looking for more information than they already have. There is more to a piece of jewelry than the diamond, and there’s more to the diamond than what is discussed on the GIA report.

Providing a number for the insurance company is also pretty easy and many jewelers are thrilled to provide a big one for free with your purchase. Although this may comply with the insurance company’s requirements, it''s rarely in your best interest to enter into a policy this way.

Here are some thoughts on getting good value from a jewelry appraisal.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Calm down. It is certainly not the end of the world, and not even that big of a deal in the scheme of things. All you needed from the appraiser is to determine whether it was the same as the GIA cert. Just because they had the info in front of them DOES NOT mean that they would just read if off of there and not do their job. I really wouldn''t worry about it.

With cushions an appraiser isn''t really going to be able to tell you much about the appearance or cut since it is a fancy cut diamond. As long as you love it and it matches the GIA cert, you should be good to go. You don''t really buy cushions by the numbers like you do with rounds.
 
Sorry, Neil, I know my advice is not popular with appraisers! I just know that I always have a choice to insure my items for the purchase price or the "Insurance Valuation" amount, and between those two, I have never had a problem. It would be imperative for me to have uncertified stones appraised, however.
 
Date: 5/12/2007 10:04:22 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Sorry, Neil, I know my advice is not popular with appraisers! I just know that I always have a choice to insure my items for the purchase price or the 'Insurance Valuation' amount, and between those two, I have never had a problem. It would be imperative for me to have uncertified stones appraised, however.
Click to expand...

Ira,

Yup, that’s what I meant. Sooner or later I’ll get good at this linking thing. Thanks for the correction.

Diamondseeker,
Customers regularly seek out appraisals because it seems like the sensible thing to do and they see it promoted on the forums and Internet advisors as a protection against being cheated. For most people the diamond shopping process is a very unusual transaction. They routinely don’t understand either the question or the answer. I agree that an appraisal is often unnecessary but blankletly saying that the only value provided from an independent appraisal is to decide if it matches the diamond to the cert is simply not correct. You’re right, that’s not a popular suggestion among appraisers but it's not just that we're interested in promoting our own businesses. An appraisal is not the same service as a gem lab. If that’s all you need, then you don’t need an appraisal.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Hi there!

I too went through the same worries when I had my diamond appraised at Harold Weinstein''s. I think part of the desire to have the appraiser perform the appraisal without the certificate/document is to a) feel like the appraiser is doing a good and thorough job when appraising it, and b) (in my case) hoping that the appraisal will come back with better specs than the GIA/AGS report states. Who wouldn''t want that!

When I went in, they asked for my cert, and I was reluctant to give it over, however they require it because for them, it seems like one of the main purposes of the appraisal for them is to confirm that the diamond matches the certificate, and come up with a value for insurance etc.

Of course mine came back with identical info to the certificate. I started out feeling a little disappointed, which is strange because I knew what I was buying! I ended up calling the appraiser back to ask a question, and then she went on and on about what a beautiful stone it was and how we got a great deal, and that it was one of the nicest ones she''d seen in a long time.

Funny thing is that only then did I feel happy with the appraisal. I guess I was one of those people who just wanted a pat on the back and confirmation that I did make a good buy. I feel like that is what is sometimes missing from the internet diamond business...it can be an emotional purchase (and a big one at that!) and it doesn''t come with the reassurance etc that seems to come from B&M stores (not that those are necessarily truthful I know). I know I may not make sense, but that is how I was feeling.

So don''t worry about your experience. First off, it is standard for HW to do that. Second, isn''t that what you went to find out? That the stone matches the cert? Anyways...just so you know, I had a similar experience, both literally and emotionally.

Hope that made some sense!
 

Hopefully no one is surprised that I’ve never been a client of Harold Weinstein’s and I certainly can’t speak towards the company’s service but I can speak for my own. I always ask clients to bring in the lab reports, the store appraisal, the receipt, the manufacturers warranty and any other paperwork they may have about their item and I routinely include copies of these things in the body of my report. I do discuss this topic with them before I look at any of the paperwork and, in general, I grade the stone and give them the grading before we get into discussing the documents. If there’s a discrepancy, and it’s not all that unusual, especially if I’m inspecting the stone mounted, we discuss in detail exactly what the discrepancy is, what is the explanation for it and what are the repercussions of those differences. I consider this to be a significant part of the value of the appraisal session and it is not possible to do this without the looking at the documents.


An appraisal that says a stone is ‘better’ than what the lab report reports is not always in your best interest for insurance purposes, especially if you have a report from a lab that is considered a premium. The problem is at replacement time. As you surely know, all VS2’s are not the same. There MUST be a component of who provided the grading. Requiring the grading match that of a recognized lab provides far less wiggle room for the replacement company than to require them to match the grading of some GG-appraiser, even if the appraiser is correct. I realize that this goes against the typical dual purpose of a new purchase appraisal where people want to confirm that they got a great ‘deal’ while simultaneously providing documentation for future replacement but that’s the reality of the market. It’s part of the reason that an appraisal session is more valuable than just an appraisal report. Saying that it’s a VS2 when you paid the premium for an AGS doesn’t say enough because you’ll get an EGL or some other off-brand as ‘like kind’. The ’certificate’ is part of the product. Saying that I or some other expert graded it VS2 may work if I’m still in business at the time of replacement but you’re just as likely to end up with their alternative appraiser who is willing to call it VS2. Again, this may not be in your best interest.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Date: 5/12/2007 11:58:52 AM
Author: denverappraiser



Hopefully no one is surprised that I’ve never been a client of Harold Weinstein’s and I certainly can’t speak towards the company’s service but I can speak for my own. I always ask clients to bring in the lab reports, the store appraisal, the receipt, the manufacturers warranty and any other paperwork they may have about their item and I routinely include copies of these things in the body of my report. I do discuss this topic with them before I look at any of the paperwork and, in general, I grade the stone and give them the grading before we get into discussing the documents. If there’s a discrepancy, and it’s not all that unusual, especially if I’m inspecting the stone mounted, we discuss in detail exactly what the discrepancy is, what is the explanation for it and what are the repercussions of those differences. I consider this to be a significant part of the value of the appraisal session and it is not possible to do this without the looking at the documents.

I always wanted to better understand the procedure of grading mounted Diamonds...
You must take a range into consideration


An appraisal that says a stone is ‘better’ than what the lab report reports is not always in your best interest for insurance purposes, especially if you have a report from a lab that is considered a premium. The problem is at replacement time. As you surely know, all VS2’s are not the same. There MUST be a component of who provided the grading. Requiring the grading match that of a recognized lab provides far less wiggle room for the replacement company than to require them to match the grading of some GG-appraiser, even if the appraiser is correct. I realize that this goes against the typical dual purpose of a new purchase appraisal where people want to confirm that they got a great ‘deal’ while simultaneously providing documentation for future replacement but that’s the reality of the market. It’s part of the reason that an appraisal session is more valuable than just an appraisal report. Saying that it’s a VS2 when you paid the premium for an AGS doesn’t say enough because you’ll get an EGL or some other off-brand as ‘like kind’. The ’certificate’ is part of the product. Saying that I or some other expert graded it VS2 may work if I’m still in business at the time of replacement but you’re just as likely to end up with their alternative appraiser who is willing to call it VS2. Again, this may not be in your best interest.





Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Click to expand...
 
Date: 5/12/2007 11:58:52 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Hopefully no one is surprised that I’ve never been a client of Harold Weinstein’s and I certainly can’t speak towards the company’s service but I can speak for my own. I always ask clients to bring in the lab reports, the store appraisal, the receipt, the manufacturers warranty and any other paperwork they may have about their item and I routinely include copies of these things in the body of my report. I do discuss this topic with them before I look at any of the paperwork and, in general, I grade the stone and give them the grading before we get into discussing the documents. If there’s a discrepancy, and it’s not all that unusual, especially if I’m inspecting the stone mounted, we discuss in detail exactly what the discrepancy is, what is the explanation for it and what are the repercussions of those differences. I consider this to be a significant part of the value of the appraisal session and it is not possible to do this without the looking at the documents.



An appraisal that says a stone is ‘better’ than what the lab report reports is not always in your best interest for insurance purposes, especially if you have a report from a lab that is considered a premium. The problem is at replacement time. As you surely know, all VS2’s are not the same. There MUST be a component of who provided the grading. Requiring the grading match that of a recognized lab provides far less wiggle room for the replacement company than to require them to match the grading of some GG-appraiser, even if the appraiser is correct. I realize that this goes against the typical dual purpose of a new purchase appraisal where people want to confirm that they got a great ‘deal’ while simultaneously providing documentation for future replacement but that’s the reality of the market. It’s part of the reason that an appraisal session is more valuable than just an appraisal report. Saying that it’s a VS2 when you paid the premium for an AGS doesn’t say enough because you’ll get an EGL or some other off-brand as ‘like kind’. The ’certificate’ is part of the product. Saying that I or some other expert graded it VS2 may work if I’m still in business at the time of replacement but you’re just as likely to end up with their alternative appraiser who is willing to call it VS2. Again, this may not be in your best interest.



Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Click to expand...
I''ve highlighted the important statements made by Neil. I am in total agreement. It''s important to know that most appraisers are looking out for your best interests as a consumer. If you are straight forward and tell us what''s on your mind...we can help you by providing professional advice. You wouldn''t expect anything less from your attorney or accountant, would you?

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com
 
Date: 5/12/2007 7:24:49 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
When a diamond has a GIA or AGS certificate, I can''t see that any more is needed from an appraiser other than verification that the stone is indeed the one on the cert. Most diamonds come with a statement of value for insurance purposes.
Click to expand...
Ditto. Also, you should trust your appraiser. He is an independent source who is going to do his best. He will attempt to give you an honest source of whether the specs on the cert match his analysis.

Please, have no worries.
 
Date: 5/12/2007 7:24:49 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
When a diamond has a GIA or AGS certificate, I can't see that any more is needed from an appraiser other than verification that the stone is indeed the one on the cert. Most diamonds come with a statement of value for insurance purposes.
Click to expand...
DiamondSeeker, I've seen you state this opinion many a time, and can't help but think that you are over simplifying what is involved in an independent appraiser's analysis of a "certified" stone.

There are several reasons a prudent buyer would want an independent analysis on a purchase of thousands of dollars or more.

What if the diamond has been damaged since the report? Or if the diamond was damaged upon setting?

Do you feel it would make a difference in your buying decision if the diamond received a borderline grade on color or clarity? The difference between some color or clarity grades can range between 10 to 30%. In my 19 years as a jeweler I rejected many diamonds which had solid GIA or AGS reports but I regarded as borderline stones or poor performers.

Many certified stones can look good on paper but be poor performers in real life. Many independent appraisers will perform additional tests and provide addtional infomation not found on most certs.

Sellers may provide all kinds of "positive" information while being reluctant to provide or emphasize "negative" information. An independent appraiser has no vested interest in the sale, and will usually provide negative as well as positive information, allowing the consumer to make the end decision as to whether the positives outweigh the negatives.

My impression is that you had a negative appraisal experience and therefore advise people that independent appraisals are a waste of money. I think this might be a biased point of view arrived at from limited experience. I have been involved in a multitude of situations where my independent analysis has saved clients from making naieve buying decisions or thousand of dollars in costly mistakes.

I think you need to rethink your advice. There are several examples in the archives of this forum where you would have cost clients thousand of dollars if they followed it.
 
Date: 5/12/2007 10:31:57 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
There are several reasons a prudent buyer would want an independent analysis on a purchase of thousands of dollars or more.

What if the diamond has been damaged since the report? Or if the diamond was damaged upon setting?

Do you feel it would make a difference in your buying decision if the diamond received a borderline grade on color or clarity? The difference between some color or clarity grades can range between 10 to 30%. In my 19 years as a jeweler I rejected many diamonds which had solid GIA or AGS reports but I regarded as borderline stones or poor performers.

Many certified stones can look good on paper but be poor performers in real life. Many independent appraisers will perform additional tests and provide addtional infomation not found on most certs.

Sellers may provide all kinds of ''positive'' information while being reluctant to provide or emphasize ''negative'' information. An independent appraiser has no vested interest in the sale, and will usually provide negative as well as positive information, allowing the consumer to make the end decision as to whether the positives outweigh the negatives.
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Richard,

For the given reasons, I''d judge...based largely on hearsay here, and a bit on experience, the average appraiser, more or less, to provide positive value in the order listed, whereas, they would more ideally provide positive value in the inverse order listed. Giving value even in the order listed is sufficient for cause. Failing to more uniformly provide value in the reverse order provides at least me frustration...but I have not seen this sort of comment, frankly, for a long time.

Some time ago, though, it was spoken about. That is, contrary to what may have been intended more as your driving points, I think as a pattern, despite the fact that they may not be compensated for doing so, I think that, given no reason to do otherwise, they are more predisposed to speak positively about an option under consideration.

In particular, separating you out from the bunch, I question the extent that appraisers will endeavor to determine whether a diamond is or is not a poor performer.

I could be wrong, of course. Reading here for some time...I do notice a more recent pattern of people determining they do not so much need an appraiser. Likewise...well...I wish I could note an equal pattern of change in reports from appraisers, but frankly, right now, apart from one report from you, Rich, I can''t really think of any I''ve read of here, based on casual but regular reading, of where the report from the appraisal came back with the suggestion of the fact that the shopper might really be able to do better, than what they came to the appraiser with.

Respectfully,
 
Date: 5/12/2007 12:45:25 PM
Author: DiaGem

I always wanted to better understand the procedure of grading mounted Diamonds...

Click to expand...
Click to expand...
The two biggest problems are grading color and then grading clarity on high clarity stones.

The standard for diamond color grading is on loose stones, table down against a white background. You can''t do this on most mounted diamonds, instead having to grade table up at a 45 degree angle against master color stone for comparison.

Usually this works okay, but sometimes I have seen a heavy mounting influence the visual color grade as much as three grades. That''s an extreme, of course. Usually you''re talking about a one color grade influence with most mountings.

That''s why I like the SAS2000 spectrophotometer so much. It grades based on the nitrogen content of the diamond, and has a "handicap" system that adjusts for the influence of the metal contact of the prongs on the diamond. This, combined with the supervision of the human eye has produced the most accurate loose and mounted color grading I am familiar with.

The problem with grading high clarity mounted stones comes into play with VS1+ clarity stones. When you get into this rarified grading of clarity it can be greatly affected by the areas covered by prongs. If you have a stone with a VS crystal or VVS pinpoint covered by a prong it can be difficult to grade the clarity. You have to do it by examining the stone in the internal reflecting surfaces on the opposing side, to see what is hidden under the prongs. A difficult procedure which takes some experience to become proficient in.
 
Date: 5/12/2007 11:06:36 PM
Author: Regular Guy

I could be wrong, of course. Reading here for some time...I do notice a more recent pattern of people determining they do not so much need an appraiser. Likewise...well...I wish I could note an equal pattern of change in reports from appraisers, but frankly, right now, apart from one report from you, Rich, I can''t really think of any I''ve read of here, based on casual but regular reading, of where the report from the appraisal came back with the suggestion of the fact that the shopper might really be able to do better, than what they came to the appraiser with.
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Ira, for every one of the "rejects" that are published on this forum there is probably a factor of 5 or 10 or more than never made print. Many people prefer to not publicize what they would regard as a "mistake" or "inaccuracy", but prefer to move past it and deal quietly with a vendor they give the benefit of a doubt.

You remember one report based on my findings. I''m wondering how many instances the other appraisers here would report of instances where they found negative information not covered on a major gem lab report or recognized by vendors. More than one, I''m sure. Don''t forget about all the mounting problems as well.
 
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