Do Appraisers ever say "Not a good stone"

[kevinraja]

To all those have been to an appraiser:

Has any appraiser ever mentioned that the stone is NOT beautiful or brilliant, and basically asked you to look for other stones? I suspect that they always have nice words about pretty much any stone, except the REAL BAD ones. Is it in their conscience that if they comment negatively, they might create a needle in their customers mind that they wasted $100+ appraisal fee for nothing. In essence, I want to hear "BAD" comments that you have heard from an appraiser.

I will keep BUMPING this thread until I hear a few stories

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Date: 1/14/2005 8:30:14 AM
Author:kevinraja
To all those have been to an appraiser:

Has any appraiser ever mentioned that the stone is NOT beautiful or brilliant, and basically asked you to look for other stones? I suspect that they always have nice words about pretty much any stone, except the REAL BAD ones. Is it in their conscience that if they comment negatively, they might create a needle in their customers mind that they wasted $100+ appraisal fee for nothing. In essence, I want to hear ''BAD'' comments that you have heard from an appraiser.

I will keep BUMPING this thread until I hear a few stories

I dont know about the guys that post on here...

But I was in my local jewellers yesterday, on another matter, and there was a bloke and his lass in there with the Owner of the shop, who was having a look at a couple of items for the chap... and he was saying in his opinion the chap have been overcharged for the necklases, at this point i took my leave, and took a walk round the block for 5 mins, to give them some privacy.

 

[kevinraja]

If you take a stone/jewlery to a vendor whom you didn''t buy from, he will almost always say that he would have given you a better deal. Thats how they talk. Those are the only people who will never agree that you got a good deal. They think they are the only ones who has a better deal.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

From the way I know the chap in the shop, and they way he was talking to the customer, it seemed more of someone giving an informed opinion to a friend, rather than pushing his own product onto the customer.

Anyways, i was searching the forum for something else, and i came accross this which may be of interest to you with your question.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/questions-for-dave-atlas-rich-sherwood-neil-beaty.18799/=

 

[kevinraja]

After reading the thread pointed to by Lord, I don''t think one needs an appraiser after all.

Ofcourse it feels good when someone who you think is an expert agrees with your choice of the stone. But they agree almost all the time, which makes the appraiser business not so trustworthy. In fact, after more than 6 months of diamond knowledge that I gained, I didn''t hear anything new from the appraiser that I went to. I just felt good that agreed with my choice, and verified the GIA numbers. But that is not enough for me atleast. I want to know the things that I don''t know already, like the cut, how brilliant it is, how firy it is. These are the things that a customer cannot infer from the numbers.

THIS IS RIDICULOUS.

Don''t give me excuses that "oh not everyone likes ferrari or porche". We are not talking about one''s personal likes or dislikes. We are talking about honest opinion. What do you think? Is it a good cut or not?

The more I read, the lesser I trust in appraisal process.

Now I don''t know whether my stone is really great, or one of those "greats" uttered to almost every other appraisal customer.

 

[windowshopper]

kevinraja-
i concur: i think the appraisal thing is a bunch of whooey.............i was pretty disappointed in the process and the results in a general sense

 

[belle]

an appraisal is more of a process of confirming that something is what it is, and giving a market value price of it. an appraiser isn''t there to tell you whether or not it is the most beautiful stone they''ve ever seen. and when it comes down to it, what one person thinks is beautiful, another may not see it quite so.....

btw kev, your stone is beautiful!!!

 

[kevinraja]

Belle,
How many times have we heard here that a wrong stone was sold to a customer Or the GIA numbers lie. As far as giving an appraisal value, you and I can do it with the help of the rapaport chart or any one of those other tables.

I agree with windowshopper, it looks like that the whole appraisal business exploits the "Not sure" panic nerves of a customer.

We don''t get our new cars appraised. Do we? When someone says they like accord and camry, and asks for an opinion, you better say which one is better qualitatively, rather than say "oh this car is 185 hp and the other is 205 hp." We know the numbers already, and tell me what those numbers mean?

 

[windowshopper]

Date: 1/14/2005 9:57:47 AM
Author: kevinraja
Belle,
How many times have we heard here that a wrong stone was sold to a customer Or the GIA numbers lie. As far as giving an appraisal value, you and I can do it with the help of the rapaport chart or any one of those other tables.

I agree with windowshopper, it looks like that the whole appraisal business exploits the ''Not sure'' panic nerves of a customer.

We don''t get our new cars appraised. Do we? When someone says they like accord and camry, and asks for an opinion, you better say which one is better qualitatively, rather than say ''oh this car is 185 hp and the other is 205 hp.'' We know the numbers already, and tell me what those numbers mean?

kevin:
I will never ever get anything appraised again except in two situations 1-an estate piece where stone info is unknown and for 2- insurance appraisal. If you are buying from someone reputable the lieklihood that the stone doesnt match the cert or has been switched or something is nil..............

My appraiser was nice and was thorough..........but he researched pricing on pricescope in front of me...........like i couldnt do that?????????????? and said yes it matches the cert.................i mean whats the point?

 

[valeria101]

What would happen if the appraiser would tell you - "this is bad" without sending you to his buddy diamond mechand that has good diamonds ? You''d be left with a diamond to replace and the appraiser with a grouchy seller to appease, I guess. If the appraiser does recommend better alternatives in some way (from "see this standard I put up" to "go to the jeweler nextdoor") things get blatantly wrong, no ? Sucks, I know.

''Guess this is one funny thing to say (in the middle of postdoc application), but those appraisals are not unlike academic recommendations, it seems - they are somewhere between nice and over the top - never "bad". How useful such critique is, well, ''guess you know all to well already.

Just that 0,2 of mine, as usual.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Date: 1/14/2005 9:57:47 AM
Author: kevinraja
Belle,
How many times have we heard here that a wrong stone was sold to a customer Or the GIA numbers lie. As far as giving an appraisal value, you and I can do it with the help of the rapaport chart or any one of those other tables.

I agree with windowshopper, it looks like that the whole appraisal business exploits the ''Not sure'' panic nerves of a customer.

We don''t get our new cars appraised. Do we? When someone says they like accord and camry, and asks for an opinion, you better say which one is better qualitatively, rather than say ''oh this car is 185 hp and the other is 205 hp.'' We know the numbers already, and tell me what those numbers mean?

As far as appraising value... yes you could possible give it a price yourself using charts etc.... BUT you do leave yourself open for those slippery insurance snakes to find a get out clause - like a the person you get into survey a new house your looking at buying needs to have the proper qualifications, and ideally to proper tools to go over that place with a fine nit comb - anyone can get the tools, the qualifications give some kind of safe guard that that person knows what they are doing and what they are looking for.

And while there are many excellent and open stone sellers, there are, as with anything, equal and opposite sellers. One gives you all the info before your purchase, other try to diguise and cheat you out of your money. And that where an appairser comes in... theres is no subsitute for experiance.

Could you garanttee that you could the differance between a D IF stone and a E VVS1 or 2 stone, and be willing to put your money on the line and pay the extra for D IF, or get it checked with an independant person for verfication - where you spend $50-100 or so for peice of mind, or not and poss risk having overpaid $1000 or more for the fasle higher grade.

 

[kevinraja]

Valeria, since I am a postdoc now, I know what you are talking about. An academic recommendation doesn''t have to be negative, for example, it can say "he took a class with me, and he got a B+." It didn''t say anything negative about the person, but it does about his abilities.

An appraiser SHOULD NEVER recommend a jeweler to a customer. Even if he thinks a friend jeweler has the best stone. That will malign the term "independent" associated with independent appraisers.

 

[belle]

An appraiser SHOULD NEVER recommend a jeweler to a customer. Even if he thinks a friend jeweler has the best stone. That will malign the term "independent" associated with independent appraisers.

agreed.

 

[kevinraja]

Lord,
We have GIA report to tell the difference between a D IF and a E VVS1. For the money that I pay to the appraiser, I want him/her to say something more, something that can interpret what the GIA says.

It is like the law/constitution, which we can all learn and understand. But we need judges to interpret what they actually mean, Even though judges in US have their own/differing interpretations. Just like it, we need appraisers to interpret the hidden secrets behind the numbers.

YOU KNOW WHAT. Diamond is all about geometry/optics. Numbers don't lie. Show me a stone with great numbers, I mean all possible numbers, which is not beautiful. If someone things that an OKAY stone is beautiful, it means they haven't yet seen a better one or they didn't do well in their geometry/physics classes.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

But if all you have os a GIA report, and the appraiser has the correct tools, and equipment, then he can tell you the dimensions and proportion of the stone in question, useful if buying sight unseen.

*just playing devils advocate here really*

 

[kevinraja]

My appraiser actually did tell me the measurements of the stones without looking at the GIA report. The numbers were a little off. The color was one grade off. Girdle was one grade off. But these appraisers find a way to escape. They justify saying that GIA uses hi-tech electronics while they use mechanical vernier callipers or a screw guage, and that is is SUBJECTIVE, BLAH, BLAH.

I don''t have to get a GG degree, but if I keep staring stone after stone like they do, you bet I can get the measurements as close as any appraiser do.

 

[windowshopper]

Date: 1/14/2005 10:25:56 AM
Author: kevinraja
My appraiser actually did tell me the measurements of the stones without looking at the GIA report. The numbers were a little off. The color was one grade off. Girdle was one grade off. But these appraisers find a way to escape. They justify saying that GIA uses hi-tech electronics while they use mechanical vernier callipers or a screw guage, and that is is SUBJECTIVE, BLAH, BLAH.

I don''t have to get a GG degree, but if I keep staring stone after stone like they do, you bet I can get the measurements as close as any appraiser do.

so you said you were thrilled with the appraiser yesterday..............just curious--what happened to sour your perspective?

 

[kevinraja]

I was thrilled, because I think he approved my choice. But now I am not sure whether that is how they talk about all the stones they see. It is that I am always a sceptic, and now I doubt whether what ever the appraiser were all true and just to make me feel good. I still like the diamond. I called AGA now and spoke with Micahel on the phone. I asked whether I should keep the diamond, or return it and look for better ones. He repeated that it is a beautiful stone, and that I got a good deal. Anyway, I will be setting it in the next hour.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/14/2005 9:57:47 AM
Author: kevinraja
Belle,
How many times have we heard here that a wrong stone was sold to a customer Or the GIA numbers lie. As far as giving an appraisal value, you and I can do it with the help of the rapaport chart or any one of those other tables.

Oh - it does happen with more frequency than you think. In fact, sometimes the stone can be nicer than the one purchased. It happened to someone on ps. These are tiny little things kept in little rags of paper. More than one diamond may be out of the parcel at a time.

That being said, I doubt one will hear many of stories of rejected stones. PS shoppers tend to do their homework; so, in a nutshell, probably select a good stone to begin with.

Everything is relative. I wouldn''t bother getting an appraisal on lower end stuff - again - that''s relative to what one thinks is low end. I did get an appraisal on my diamond bracelet. It was for my piece of mind that it was what it was.

As Belle mentioned, it isn''t the appraiser''s job to tell you how great your stone is & how much better deal you got than so & so. So, you use the car analogy - I''d pick the porche over the Lambogini - unless they have changed in the last few years - the Lam. drive is rougher. THAT''S a SUBJECTIVE like/unlike.

I would never be arrogant enough to assume I have the expertise to evaluate a stone. On a five figure purchase, $150.00 is a relatively small amount for piece of mind & detailed report submitted to the insurance company.

 

[nicknomo]

I think the best was to go into an appraiser is by keeping him blind. Let him tell you what clarity, color, etc it is to verify you have the right stone.

Out of good business practice they will never tell you your stone stinks. Think about it... if you like the stone, and you get it appraised and the guy tells you its a p.o.s., you are going to be offended! I''m sure a lot of business is through word of mouth.

The thing that you should do to see if your ring is worth it, ask for a good selling price for the diamond, without telling him what you bought it for. This should give you an idea as to whether you overpaid.

Just make sure you go to an appraiser who knows what they are doing.. and don''t expect negative feedback..

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/14/2005 11:12

5 AM
Author: nicknomo

Just make sure you go to an appraiser who knows what they are doing.. and don''t expect negative feedback..

Don''t know what you mean by no negative feedback. But, mine gave me the pros & the cons of the stone. The decision on which to place emphasis on was mine.

 

[windowshopper]

Date: 1/14/2005 11:22:31 AM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 1/14/2005 11:12

5 AM
Author: nicknomo

Just make sure you go to an appraiser who knows what they are doing.. and don''t expect negative feedback..

Don''t know what you mean by no negative feedback. But, mine gave me the pros & the cons of the stone. The decision on which to place emphasis on was mine.

FIRE&ICE:

you are very fortunate because that''s what i thought i would get. i received no negatives --even details that i knew myself were "negatives." when i asked about their import and got well ..just brushed aside.

 

[pqcollectibles]

Date: 1/14/2005 11:12

5 AM
Author: nicknomo
I think the best was to go into an appraiser is by keeping him blind. Let him tell you what clarity, color, etc it is to verify you have the right stone.

Out of good business practice they will never tell you your stone stinks. Think about it... if you like the stone, and you get it appraised and the guy tells you its a p.o.s., you are going to be offended! I''m sure a lot of business is through word of mouth.

The thing that you should do to see if your ring is worth it, ask for a good selling price for the diamond, without telling him what you bought it for. This should give you an idea as to whether you overpaid.

Just make sure you go to an appraiser who knows what they are doing.. and don''t expect negative feedback..

Having an appraiser work blind may be OK for a loose diamond. A good appraiser should be "dead on" on carat weight, within reasonable variance on measurments, and within a grade on color and clarity. Good appraisers know the market values as well. If the stone(s) are already mounted, you''ll cost the appraiser time and possibly yourself money by withholding the Cert. The appraiser cannot get accurate size, color, or clarity measurements, and the carat weight will be an estimate since they cannot weigh the diamond.

But say you take in a loose diamond and withhold the Cert. You bought what was represented as a 1.25 carat. The appraiser weighs the diamond and gets a value of 1.16 carat. If the appraiser had the Cert, they could stop right there and call you to inform you that there is a discrepancy. Without a Cert, the appraiser will do a complete work-up not knowing any difference for the full charge you agreed to upon contracting their services.

 

[kevinraja]

I agree with windowshopper. When I brought up some of what I thought might be negatives, they were gently brushed aside. My appraiser mentioned that my SI1 was eye-clean. Generally they say it is safe to go VS and up for emerald cuts. But I did got with SI1 cuz of size, cut, and IMO inclusions were off-table. Now I don''t whether he really meant that the stone is eye-clean.

He did measure the clarity,color, weight, etc before I showed him the GIA report. He told me that he thought the clarity could be SI1/VS2, and that he leaned towards SI1.

DONT GET ME WRONG. I am happy with the stone for the measurements, cut, and the price I got it for. But I just want this discussion to be a good educating material for newbies that frequent PS.

 

[windowshopper]

Date: 1/14/2005 11:38:45 AM
Author: kevinraja
I agree with windowshopper. When I brought up some of what I thought might be negatives, they were gently brushed aside. My appraiser mentioned that my SI1 was eye-clean. Generally they say it is safe to go VS and up for emerald cuts. But I did got with SI1 cuz of size, cut, and IMO inclusions were off-table. Now I don't whether he really meant that the stone is eye-clean.

He did measure the clarity,color, weight, etc before I showed him the GIA report. He told me that he thought the clarity could be SI1/VS2, and that he leaned towards SI1.

DONT GET ME WRONG. I am happy with the stone for the measurements, cut, and the price I got it for. But I just want this discussion to be a good educating material for newbies that frequent PS.

ditto ditto ditto

actually kevin i brought up this EXACT topic immediately after my purchase and i was verbally eviscerated by many about the fact that appraisers are only there to appraise....provide a value for the item or stone NOT to consult or advise. However thats why I went went and I stated as much with the individual over the phone prior to going. He should have said thats not what I do or thats a different type of service or whatever......................

I think with the burgeoning popularity of Pricescope and perhaps Diamond talk which I am not at all familiar with, the appraisers that are associated with PS, and YES associated with all of the PS vendors, are being pressured in ways they werent in past for more than a flat insurance valuation

 

[denverappraiser]

kevinraja,

The reason to hire a professional to assist with a new purchase is if you are unfamiliar with the product or dealer and you need additional information in order to make your purchase decision. Using the above example, customers involve consultants in the car buying process regularly and for precicely this reason. There is a whole industry surrounding this (much to the irritation of the car dealers). Not every customer either needs or wants this service and for those who don’t, there is certainly no reason to pay for it. Many find it to be quite valuable. I sorry to hear that you didn't

The usual discussion on a new-sale type appraisal starts out something like this:
I just bought a new diamond ring from a dealer that I’m unfamiliar with and I spent quite a bit of money there. I’m nervous about the whole deal because I’ve never done this before and I"ve been told conflicting things by various dealers. I have a few questions:
1) Is this a diamond?
2) What are its important attributes?
3) Is it the diamond described on this lab report?
4) Has it been damaged since the lab examination?
5) It was reported by the seller to have ________ characteristic. Is this correct?
6) Are there any manufacturing or craftsmanship issues about the mounting or setting job that I should be concerned with?
7) Are there any other attributes about this stone or the ring that I should consider in my purchase decision that haven’t been mentioned above?
Is the document that was supplied by the seller sufficient for my insurance needs?
9) Did I pay an appropriate price?
If you feel that you can answer the above questions without assistance, and many people can, I agree that it is not necessary to hire an appraiser for this purpose.
Just out of curiosity. When you go to the doctor and you get a clean bill of health, exactly as you expected, does this mean that the doctor’s service had no value?

By the way, the two purposes described by windowshopper (estates and insurance requirements) constitute the vast majority of appraisal assignments.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Indepdent Appraisals in Denver

 

[kevinraja]

When you go to the doctor and you get a clean bill of health, exactly as you expected, does this mean that the doctor’s service had no value?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Indepdent Appraisals in Denver

I will be happy as long as the doctor says the truth. I don''t want him to all his patients they are "beautiful (sorry healthy)". Tell me what the problem is. Don''t tell me that I am alright when I am not. It is okay to say alright when, in fact, I am. But if I do have something, let me know.

 

[codex57]

Date: 1/14/2005 10:19:30 AM
Author: kevinraja
YOU KNOW WHAT. Diamond is all about geometry/optics. Numbers don''t lie. Show me a stone with great numbers, I mean all possible numbers, which is not beautiful. If someone things that an OKAY stone is beautiful, it means they haven''t yet seen a better one or they didn''t do well in their geometry/physics classes.

Try and find teh posts that describe the difference btw a Brilliancescope and an Idealscope. Also, see the article from the GIA about them making their new ideal cut standard. Then decide if "numbers don''t lie."

For another example, see the field of statistics and polling. Numbers don''t lie remember?

 

[windowshopper]

Date: 1/14/2005 12:15:46 PM
Author: codex57

Date: 1/14/2005 10:19:30 AM
Author: kevinraja
YOU KNOW WHAT. Diamond is all about geometry/optics. Numbers don''t lie. Show me a stone with great numbers, I mean all possible numbers, which is not beautiful. If someone things that an OKAY stone is beautiful, it means they haven''t yet seen a better one or they didn''t do well in their geometry/physics classes.

Try and find teh posts that describe the difference btw a Brilliancescope and an Idealscope. Also, see the article from the GIA about them making their new ideal cut standard. Then decide if ''numbers don''t lie.''

For another example, see the field of statistics and polling. Numbers don''t lie remember?

hey thanks now i feel really great about my decision!

 

[denverappraiser]

The first obligation of the appraiser is to report the truth. If a client comes in with an I2-K diamond that’s cut like a turnip, I tell them what they have. I value it in the desired market against other similar stones. If they tell me that the dealer reported that it displays h&a, or that someone else graded it as an SI1-H, I will say that I disagree with these statements and I’ll put it in writing. This is all part of reporting the truth. I’ll even discuss with them the expected prices for a stone that better meets the desired description if they wish.

In my opinion, telling them that the above stone is ‘bad’ is not part of reporting the truth, it’s filtering with the appraisers taste. There IS a market for such stones and there are customers who are happy to buy them because they like the prices. Some might even like the look. These clients are not necessarily wrong simply because their stone is unpopular or because you or I would not choose to buy own one like it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver