source/quality of non-branded stones

[diasurfer]

hi,
I'm a first time poster to pricescope but this is not my first experience with diamonds.

Here's issue I'm pondering now for an e-ring stone. I can't decide between going with a "branded" super ideal (that's what I did last time) or go with a reputable broker/jeweler. I have contacted one of the latter who has in stock a diamond "cut by the same cutter who produces Brand X". What I am wondering is, are these in some sense the "cast offs" of the branded cutter? Ones that may be GIA-Ex or AGS-0 but not the cream of the crop, hence unwilling to assign brand name? Even when the broker/jeweler has a good reputation, do they have access to the highest quality of cuts? Are there "independent" cutters who don't sell their own brand and supply the independent brokers/jewelers with stones that are as high a quality as what the well-known brands can?

thanks for any input you can offer.

 

[neatfreak]

AGS-0 IS the cream of the crop. "Branded" stones are basically just an extra layer of marketing, which adds a lot of $ onto the cost of your stone. Doesn''t mean they are any better.

I assume you''re looking for a round? If so, check out Whiteflash or Good Old Gold. They have an excellent selection of AGS0 stones, at very good prices. Their customer service is also impeccable.

 

[diasurfer]

thanks neatfreak, but really your suggestion reflects by question. WF or GOG? (I''m trying to keep from using particular names as examples). By "branded" you seem to imply I am thinking of something like Hearts on Fire. But take WhiteFlash for example. Brian the cutter goes through their stones and the best get the ACA brand. Those don''t quite meet his standards get the "Expert Selection" label - still high quality cuts (good HCA numbers for example) but not quite the best they produce. Say they made their "Expert Selection" stones available to GOG (again, this is just hypothetical). Then GOG could sell a very nice stone for a nice price, but in this case it is not the best this cutter produces. Or are you suggesting that the ACA/Expert selection is just marketing?

BTW, I know some broker/jewelers would say "not all AGS 000 are created alike".

but I appreciate the input.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 6/17/2007 6:21:13 PM
Author: diasurfer
thanks neatfreak, but really your suggestion reflects by question. WF or GOG? (I'm trying to keep from using particular names as examples). By 'branded' you seem to imply I am thinking of something like Hearts on Fire. But take WhiteFlash for example. Brian the cutter goes through their stones and the best get the ACA brand. Those don't quite meet his standards get the 'Expert Selection' label - still high quality cuts (good HCA numbers for example) but not quite the best they produce. Say they made their 'Expert Selection' stones available to GOG (again, this is just hypothetical). Then GOG could sell a very nice stone for a nice price, but in this case it is not the best this cutter produces. Or are you suggesting that the ACA/Expert selection is just marketing?


BTW, I know some broker/jewelers would say 'not all AGS 000 are created alike'.


but I appreciate the input.

Whiteflash DOES select their ACA stones as premium stones, but GOG doesn't get their stones from WF, so they theoretically get to "pick" their stones from the same initial bucket as WF as far as I know. So there is no reason that an AGS-0 stone from GOG would be any worse/better than a branded one from WF. Same thing with a HOF branded diamond because WF and GOG aren't selecting the HOF "rejects", they get to make their selection on their own.

The easiest answer is that for an uneducated consumer, a "branded" stone from whereever is a safe bet for them. They will pay the extra price for the security in knowing that whichever one they select will be a great one.

For someone with some diamond knowledge and experience, I do believe that you could find a stone just as nice that isn't branded. You just need to do a bit of searching.

 

[kcoursolle]

Whiteflash''s line of "a cut above" diamonds are the most beautiful rounds I''ve ever seen and are about 1/2 the price of "hearts on fire" branded stones. No need to get a name brand when WF''s stones are so well cut.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

ACA is a branded stone and carries with it a premium no?

 

[kcoursolle]

Date: 6/17/2007 7:33:08 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
ACA is a branded stone and carries with it a premium no?

A very small premium relative to debeers or other name brands.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

I don't know much about branded diamonds--as I don't really have any interest in paying extra for the namebrand--unless it was tiffany's-- but don't those big name brands also have a special group of cutters? I think that is what this thread was really about though, that the big name brands have a special trained crew of cutters. So do those cutters work exclusively for that name, and then the few stones that have slight errors get sent off to be sold to other people, or do they work for those name brands as well as other clients, meaning that all of those particular cutters' diamonds would be of the same quality, with a few not "labeled"?

Does the ACA have an exclusive group of cutters?

 

[diasurfer]

Yes, WorkingHard I think you caught the meaning of what I was trying to get at. I consider WF ACA a branded stone. [I know they are beautiful diamonds; I bought one 5 years ago]. What I was wondering is if ACA, 8*, SuperbCert, Infinity, etc. can offer better looking diamonds than can be bought from, say James Allen, GOG, NiceIce, etc., because they have "first dibs" on whatever the cutters of these super ideals produce. Again, was trying not to name names or compare specific brands, I just meant this in a general sense.

The counter argument is that all of these sources are ultimately buying from the same cutters and there is nothing inherently to gain by going with one of the "brands" I listed.

thanks

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

My theory would be that some of the highest end names have got a select group of cutters that work for them exclusively. But knowing how the world works I bet that even then they occasionally bring in diamonds that are offered from other cutters that meet the proper proportions. But honestly now, everyone knows the numbers. If the cutter is able to do it, then its just a rock that has been cut the same as the master from one of the select namebrands, and surely there are more cutters able to do it just as well than there is demand from those high end names too employee. Which means that there should be a fair number of equally beautifully cut diamonds available via other avenues, and that can be verified with an AGS report and analysis of all the numbers and performance and comparing it to the requirements of those higher end name brands.

but if anybody has any real knowledge lets find out!

 

[diasurfer]

yes! yes! that''s what I''m talking about WHFSM! how does this really work???

 

[BrianTheCutter]

Date: 6/18/2007 2:31:28 AM
Author: diasurfer

yes! yes! that's what I'm talking about WHFSM! how does this really work???

There are different channels and lines of distribution. Some are public. Others are very exclusive or volume-driven. Regardless, beware any seller making claims about secret access to ‘brand X.’

I have personal experience with this and would like to speak for some on the “branded” side.

I’m always interested when consumers know more about the manufacture of my brand than I do. They don’t, of course, but we hear reports from consumers who’ve been misled with false claims. For example, I work hand in hand with my cutting partners and they state categorically that they do not supply any vendor on this board with the production I’ve designed and refined for the past five years. I’ve remained silent on this topic but as our brand has grown so has at least one Pinocchio’s nose.

For those interested, here is our history. ‘A Cut Above’ was originally cut here in Houston by me and my father over a decade ago. As demand outgrew supply I required additional capacity. The rough market was becoming difficult at the time so I sought companies who could cut to my parameters. For a time I employed two companies, one in Israel and one in Antwerp. The Israeli factory could not deliver the consistency I demanded so I moved production exclusively to Antwerp. In 2000 things were changing with DeBeers’ supplier of choice. Realizing my production could be vulnerable I sought a stronger producer, one who could ensure the future of A Cut Above. I explored manufacturers who did not all live up to my requirements but eventually found the perfect fit. The supplier who took me on as partner-designer had the will to explore my proposed tolerances, the capacity to supply the volume I demanded and, as a sightholder, ensured longevity for me and my customers. Our deal was simple, I was to help develop their production and design the finest cut gems for them. In return I would have what I required direct from them for my product line. This remains the case today. Since 2001 ‘A Cut Above’ has come from only one factory floor and it will remain that way for years to come. I developed the ACA Princess on the same floor and we will introduce other ACA shapes as the market permits.

Whether cut by the hand of my father or my current overseas partner ACA has been shaped to my specific design parameters for over a decade. My configurations existed prior to the AGS and new GIA cut grade. I'm delighted that those systems reinforce what my family learned through years of hard labor but ACA was there first and our production has always been our own. It was never “selected from a pile” and as a diamond cutter I’m offended when others make such claims. To someone else it may be a profitable lie but it’s an insult to my life’s work.

A brand is not just measurements. A brand should stand for quality, consistency, and the integrity of the people behind the product. Jewelers who project those qualities don’t need to ride coattails or claim their diamonds are ‘secret stepchildren’ of another brand. People of integrity brand themselves.

There are many variations of beautiful stones, both branded and unbranded. As consumers you may choose to believe who you want and buy what you want. I hope ACA owners enjoy the history I’ve shared and that the information is helpful. I appreciate the opportunity to set the record straight.

 

[diasurfer]

hello Brian the Cutter,
I recall a telephone conversation with you 5+ years ago about various ACA stones you had in stock - how it set my mind at ease. And now, thank you for taking the time to reply to this thread. I really thought it would generate more interest than it apparently has. For as much information as one can find on Pricescope, there is still much about the industry that goes on behind the curtains for the consumer. Namely, how distribution from rough suppliers, cutters, and vendors really works, in all its various forms. I appreciate you clarifying the process for Whiteflash/ACA.

For the record, no one ever claimed to have secret access to Whiteflash/ACA stones. They claimed they had access to stones produced by the same cutter as produces "Brand X", which I will not name. I also regret that Good Old Gold''s name got brought into this, even hypothetically. I have no knowledge of their access to diamonds and do not want to in any way suggest that their supply is inferior.

thanks and aloha

 

[sep004]

Thank you for the informative post! I had been under the impression that there was a database of diamonds, of which some were of a superior cut. I thought this was why one GIA number would appear on several websites. I have been trying to figure out why the Whiteflash ACA diamonds are more expensive than the SC Round Ideal Cut H&A, and I guess it''s because the WF diamonds are WF-exclusive. Thanks for clearing this up for all of us!

 

[BrianTheCutter]

You are welcome sep004. Your assumption was correct. Diamond suppliers list stones through a virtual database offered via many retail sites. Sellers with financial ability may also have selections they've purchased and own already, called an in-house inventory. The Pricescope sift allows you to differentiate by selecting all, or in-house.

diasurfer thank you for starting the thread. Looking to the positive we no longer live in a world where things are so secret. Thanks to the internet there is increasing transparency in all sectors and the resulting globalization and beneficiation are reducing irrationalities in our trade.

I appreciate your clarification above. On behalf of ‘brand X’ I encourage you to seek verification directly from the source. I'm glad to have made your acquaintance those years ago and hope the information here is helpful.

 

[strmrdr]

non-branded stones can and are in some cases as good as or better than branded stones.
Depends on the stone itself and the skill of the vendor selecting and securing supply.
A few vendors have turned to partnership deals like Brian has and for much the same reason. Some keep it secret some don''t.
Others offer brands that are manufacturer driven: Paul''s dealer network being the most well known on PS.
While WF offers a brand that is vendor driven among other stones.
Others select goods from suppliers they have a long history with.
Others buy and sell diamonds off of lists, some in house and some virtual.
Some walk across the street, select and pick up their diamonds.
Most vendors combine multiple methods to offer a wide array of goods and services.
Some vendors are just fronts for the cutters to sell direct.

Since GOG was mentioned I will say that GOG sells such a wide variety of goods that its impossible to put them in any one category.
They secure inventory using all of the above methods except being a front for a big cutter.

 

[Rhino]

Hello Brian,

Are you saying that nobody has access to Antwerp source that cuts the ACA''s?

Regards,

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/17/2007 11:26:43 PM
Author: diasurfer

The counter argument is that all of these sources are ultimately buying from the same cutters and there is nothing inherently to gain by going with one of the ''brands'' I listed.


thanks

This would be the fallacy in your argument. All of the sources you mention are NOT buying from the same cutters. Some of them may be, but definitely not all of them. Even if they were, the cutters will cut to the demands of the buyer (assuming a large enough quantity of diamonds are being bought), so buying from the same cutter does not necessarily mean buying the same quality of cut from the same cutter.

All AGS 0 cut grade stones are going to be pretty extraordinary, but some few are going to be even better, having a little extra magic, but not being able to be rewarded for that magic with a better grade. Frankly, some AGS1''s are going to have that same magic, but be harshly penalized for extremely minor polish or symmetry faults that do not affect the magic, just the grade. (The price will be affected though) GIA will give its top cut grade with polish and symmetry defects that will downgrade a stone from AGS, and frankly, without a microscope it is often impossible to see those defects, so perhaps GIA has chosen correctly on that issue. (Now if they could just get the actually visible portions of their grading to be more accurate, but that is another argument in a galaxy far far away {cue music and scroll dialog})

You task, should you choose to accept it, will be to discern which you are looking at. The advantage to a branded stone with super tight tolerances and standards is that someone who knows how to look at the stones with their eyes has already done that for you. If the comfort afforded by that extra 3 to 5% is not needed by you, then by all means grab the unbranded stone.

Wink

 

[diasurfer]

So O-be-Wink, should I just close my eyes, let go, and use the force?

thanks for contributing to the thread. I''ve never heard it expressed as 3-5% for the comfort factor of brand''s expert set of eyes, but assuming those numbers are correct that sounds like a good way to put it. I''ve always been the iconoclastic type who goes out of his way to avoid name brands where possible, but I admit it''s tougher in the case of online diamond buying. Part of me always wants to support the independent little guy. But numerous studies in all walks of life have shown how observer''s position can affect their ability to be objective.

Let''s say I want a super ideal cut and have very specific limits on the other 3 c''s, making the stone I want an uncommon one. Take three examples for how I could buy it. First guy has 50 diamonds before I ever came along. Assigns his own quality grade to each of those then offers them for sale with his brand. One happens to meet my criteria. Second guy has access to hundreds, finds out what I''m looking for, in the morning walks a couple of blocks to pick out 5 which meet my rough criteria, then picks one of super ideal quality and returns the rest that afternoon. Third guy has access to hundreds, sends off for 5, has them shipped, picks the super ideal quality and ships the rest back.

Of the three guys, it takes the smallest leap of faith to think that the first guy was objective in judging the quality, and the largest leap of faith for the third guy, since he already knew what I was specifically looking for and has already invested time and perhaps money (?) to obtain a candidate. Of course, many are able to do this very thing judging by their excellent PS reputations, but I think it takes a greater leap of faith. And I guess making that plunge is what might save the buyer 3-5%.

This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/20/2007 12:42:51 PM
Author: diasurfer

So O-be-Wink, should I just close my eyes, let go, and use the force?

Not at all sure about the force, but positive about using not closing the eyes.

thanks for contributing to the thread. I''ve never heard it expressed as 3-5% for the comfort factor of brand''s expert set of eyes, but assuming those numbers are correct that sounds like a good way to put it. I''ve always been the iconoclastic type who goes out of his way to avoid name brands where possible, but I admit it''s tougher in the case of online diamond buying. Part of me always wants to support the independent little guy. But numerous studies in all walks of life have shown how observer''s position can affect their ability to be objective.

Of course I am speaking about vendors here such as WhiteFlash and Infinity, as well as others previously mentioned who are in that price range, not big time advertising vendors such as Hof which have much higher markups, nor EightStar which has much higher costs.

Let''s say I want a super ideal cut and have very specific limits on the other 3 c''s, making the stone I want an uncommon one. Take three examples for how I could buy it. First guy has 50 diamonds before I ever came along. Assigns his own quality grade to each of those then offers them for sale with his brand. One happens to meet my criteria. Second guy has access to hundreds, finds out what I''m looking for, in the morning walks a couple of blocks to pick out 5 which meet my rough criteria, then picks one of super ideal quality and returns the rest that afternoon. Third guy has access to hundreds, sends off for 5, has them shipped, picks the super ideal quality and ships the rest back.

Of the three guys, it takes the smallest leap of faith to think that the first guy was objective in judging the quality, and the largest leap of faith for the third guy, since he already knew what I was specifically looking for and has already invested time and perhaps money (?) to obtain a candidate. Of course, many are able to do this very thing judging by their excellent PS reputations, but I think it takes a greater leap of faith. And I guess making that plunge is what might save the buyer 3-5%.

This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds.

That may well be true, but in my opinion the ameteur buyer is probably better off paying the slight premium for the piece of mind. If the premium was 40 to 50% then I would think it better to do his homework and learn how to "find the real deal".

I had not seen Brian''s comments earlier, as I answered an earlier comment and had to immediately leave the computer for some hours, but what he has to say is VERY valid. There are often people who claim to be or do something that they are not or do not. It is your job in your quest for the illusive absolute least expensive finest diamond in the known universe to accurately determine what is genuine, and what is puffery. Not an easy task, especially considering that so very very many in the trade do not really understand it either.

 

[diasurfer]

From Wink:

your quest for the illusive absolute least expensive finest diamond in the known universe

I love it! the quest for the holy grail! it''s the fun part! much more fun than trying to pick a setting. ughhh!

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Hey Brian, first I want to say I wish I had known your name was Brian when I was shopping. Then I could have a diamond cut (organization) by Brian, her husband would be named brian and she would be wearing a Brian knox band. That would be pretty nice.

But, to the real question, maybe it was up there and I missed it, but do you make all of your cutters sign contracts saying that they will not cut for anyone else? or do they have days off and time off where they could theoretically cut for someone else if they wanted to make some extra money?


Personally I don't REALLY care about the cutter I care about the cut(Of course I am astounded by your and other master cutter's skills though). But it would be nice to know.

Also, do you ever higher cutters for specifically short periods of time as a sort of independent contractor, or take any stones from cutters that approach you and demonstrate the quality of the cut to you, and then label accordingly? I imagine no to both, but It would be interesting as well.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Going back to the original question, if you have the contact details, I would contact the cutter and present him with the claim of the retailer.

As an example, I once got a question of a Canadian consumer, to whom an Infinity-stone was presented by a retailer, unknown to us. After checking details of the stone, we could inform the consumer that this stone was definitely not cut by us.

Unfortunately, it is impossible to control all sales-talk at the counter of every retailer in the world. Luckily, in our particular case, a consumer can always ask for a double-check from our side.

Live long,

 

[Rhino]

Reading Brian’s post again I’d like to make a clarification and apology. Since the GOG name has been brought up in this thread a few times and Brian’s reference to the growing of one vendor’s Pinocchio nose I made the assumption that he was referring to GOG which I should not have done. Why? I don’t advertise who my sources are to our clients so for that I apologize in my assumption.

What Brian said is indeed true though. There are large manufacturers who will cut product for one distributor exclusive of others. In fact there are diamonds we are distributors (and will be as we are working on some new projects) of which come from certain manufactures who do not and will not supply to other vendors on this board. Hope that helps.

In answer to your question WHFSR, "Do you make all of your cutters sign contracts saying that they will not cut for anyone else?" I can''t answer for Brian but there are no signed contracts between the agreements I have made with certain manufacturers. In this industry many agreements are still done and made on a handshake.

Peace,

 

[Rhino]

Date: 6/21/2007 11:01:14 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Going back to the original question, if you have the contact details, I would contact the cutter and present him with the claim of the retailer.

As an example, I once got a question of a Canadian consumer, to whom an Infinity-stone was presented by a retailer, unknown to us. After checking details of the stone, we could inform the consumer that this stone was definitely not cut by us.

Unfortunately, it is impossible to control all sales-talk at the counter of every retailer in the world. Luckily, in our particular case, a consumer can always ask for a double-check from our side.

Live long,

Amen to that Paul. There are a lot of stores that make these claims. We see it all the time. And this is not counting all the manufacturers who claim to cut true H&A''s that have wonky patterns.

All the best,

 

[JohnQuixote]

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 6/21/2007 1:58:24 PM
Author: Rhino

Reading Brian’s post again I’d like to make a clarification and apology. Since the GOG name has been brought up in this thread a few times and Brian’s reference to the growing of one vendor’s Pinocchio nose I made the assumption that he was referring to GOG which I should not have done. Why? I don’t advertise who my sources are to our clients so for that I apologize in my assumption.

Thanks Rhino. We don’t want this to be misconstrued either. To be clear, Brian’s comments were not aimed at GOG. Their name appearing in this thread had nothing to do with the content of his post.

 

[WinkHPD]

I see some good things coming out of this thread, including the fact that many diamonds may come from the same cutter, but may not be cut to the same standards.

In the case of ACA, while there may be other diamonds cut to similar proportions that may in fact be good enough to be ACA, they are not and can not be ACA until Brian himself selects them. Brian is the brand owner and defender of ACA and no stone can be an ACA without his personal blessing. There is only one place in the world to buy an ACA and that is from the company Whiteflash. (Excluding of course the secondary market.)

Houses like WhiteFlash and Infinity choose to represent that select portion of the market representing a fraction of 1% of the diamonds sold. That they will be very protective of their brands is only natural. That they should receive a small premium for the perfectly beautiful stones that they have rejected as not being good enough for their brand is also only natural. Before the internet information explosion that premium might have been much higher, but coincidentally because of the internet information explosion there is a much greater demand for that fraction of 1% of diamonds.

Wink

 

[diasurfer]

I would like to emphasize that the vendor who told me "same cutter as produces Brand X" was not GOG, James Allen, or NiceIce - names that came up in the course of this thread. They are a fairly well known online vendor but not a regular contributor to this forum. Brand X was not Infinity, EightStar, SuperbCert, or ACA.

I haven''t verified the particular claim with Brand X because it is no longer a stone that I''m interested in for other reasons. I agree it is a good idea to confirm with the cutter. But I will make one more clarification here. The claim "same cutter as produces Brand X" was not made unsolicited by Anonymous Vendor as part of their sales pitch. It was made in response to my direct question to them: "Who cut this stone?".

Perhaps they could have said Cutter # in Antwerp, and it probably wouldn''t have meant anything to me (though I would have googled them), so they answered the way they did. Or maybe it was just meant to impress me. But I suspect I''m not alone in being curious about these things, since this information is not presented openly.

I''m glad that others see good things coming out of this thread, and that forum "heavyweights" have made contributions.

aloha

 

[WinkHPD]

Heavyweight, who you calling heavyweight? Sure, I could use a loss of a few pounds, but to be publically ridiculed???

Wink