SOS! sapphire help please. I really don't know!

[MrsCornishWed]

Hi all. Am new! (as will come apparent in this post no doubt, total novice)

I am already a mrs. However, thanks to being duped by a highstreet chain here in the UK when my husband chose a ring and proposed (- neither of us knew anything at all about jewellery) we are now looking to replace my engagment ring. ( just incase any of you were interested, the reason we are replacing is because the integrity of the setting was comprimised during resizing, and the diamonds were a dirty, awful colour which became so obvious when we put it next to my wedding band, which we sourced in a little cove of jewellery we randomly stumbled across one day in someone's basement (think aladins cave) -second hand)

anyways. The jeweller/goldsmith i am using (small, independant) sourced me a few sapphires so i could find the colour I am looking for. These were less than a carat, and roughly around £250, we spoke about going over carat, how this equates in size and price and i set my budget around £600 for the stone. He thinks i'd get roughly a 6.5mm/ just over a carat round cut for this price.

However, I have found a seller on Etsy (i was looking for inspiration for a setting- but we'll get to that in a mo!) who is based in canada. he is a selling a few different sapphires in shades i like- offers a 10 day return, appraisals for free over $1000 or for an extra $40 under has excellent feedback etc. But I am very worried about buying online, and also whether I will incure charges, customs or the like when it enters the UK (?? anyone know??) But his prices seem *really* good .. when I asked, he says this is because he sells 'wholesale prices'

I have found two oval shaped mild blue sapphires both seem very good pricing. 1 is listed as a Ceylon blue sapphire precision cut by Rogerio Graca.
Great color, cut, clarity

weight: 1.50 ct
size: 7.5 x 5.9 mm oval
clarity: very good, eye clean
origin: Ceylon
for £340

and the second is listed as
This is a large precision cut Blue sapphire almost 10x8 mm.
It is has a medium blue color and great brilliance.
For a sapphire of this size, clarity and color I consider this a bargain.

size: 9.8 x 7.5 mm oval
weight: 2.72 cts
color: medium bright blue
clarity: very good, eye clean
shape val
origin: Madagascar
for £650


I haven't linked because i can only link to the sale listing and I am unsure if this is breaking the rules (if not please say and i'll do so) as i can't seem to save and then post pictures via this dodgy computer!

That also brings me to this, an oval. not something I had considered. Every oval set stone in a ring i can find via google is set vertical ways- but i have my wedding band to consider. This won't work. Can anyone point me in the direction of some beautiful ovals set length/horizontal (do you know what i mean?? blah!)


This was epic. Sorry! Anyways, I really, really want some help as I'm keen to make a purchase soon.

MrsCornishWed

 

[MrsCornishWed]

Oh! here we go!

 

[movie zombie]

obviously I'm prejudiced, buy my spess e-ring Oval is set east/west [horizontal].....see avatar.

 

[MrsCornishWed]

Ohh, MovieZombie. That's a gorgeous coloured stone!
I'd need a much thinner setting, but it's nice to finally see an oval set like that. I think it's very pretty!

 

[ephsea]

The smaller of those two sapphires is nice and bright, judging by the picture (the calcite block behind is nice too). Some more close-up pictures would really help. The price is nice, I would make sure any treatment is disclosed up front. At this price, I would expect it to be heated, but would want to make sure it had no other treatment. Good luck on your hunt, you came to the right place!

 

[endless_summer]

Definitely the smaller one would be my choice - the color blows the other one out of the water - such a pretty blue!

 

[MrsCornishWed]

I feel like the colour of the smaller stone is the best too. It looks so sparkly and bright! ..so aside from questioning any treatments, what other questions should I ask? Should i push for an appraisal? if so, what comes of an appraisal (I've never had one before, my e.ring was my first real bit of sparkle!)

I will ask for more photos. should I be asking for one that is straight on/face shot up close? (just noticed this seems to be talked alot of here!)

Also, can anyone show me any pictures of that sized oval stone in a ring on a hand? i'm struggling to visualise it's sizing on a hand.
Thank you for all your help guys. I've been lurking for ages, this place is like an addiction!

 

[MrsCornishWed]

I know this is going to sound a bit first world problem-ish..

But, i have chubby fingers and so need it to be a 'decent' size so it doesn't look lost or look doesn't do the stone justice. I don't know if I am making much sense. I have only seen round cuts before so can't really visualise this oval properly..

 

[marymm]

Here's a pic of Catmom's pink sapphire which I believe is an 8x6mm oval...


https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/per-request-catmoms-ring-collection.80695/
And for completeness, here's a link to the Adwar setting http://www.adwar.com/products/styles/19534L/view

This is one of my favorite prong-set settings for an East/West oval - the pic shows a 6x4mm oval but the link takes you to the 8x6mm version - http://www.adwar.com/products/styles/19534L/view


If you are choosing the smaller sapphire you posted, the 7.5x5.9mm oval, and you have a trusted jeweler, you probably can go with a stock 8x6mm setting as long as you go with a prong-set style (which more easily accommodates the close-to stone sizes).

 

[MrsCornishWed]

marymm thank you so much for the pictures, that's really helpful. .

you totally went gobbledygoop on me at the end there.. i'm gonna need you to break that down and explain!

 

[marymm]

Okay, there are vendors like Adwar and Stuller that are casting companies/jewelry suppliers who sell to jewelers (not to the general public).

Adwar - http://www.adwar.com/
Stuller - https://www.stuller.com/

Among the items these vendors make are ring mountings for diamonds and colored gemstones. They make the ring mounts to fit standardized (or calibrated) stone sizes. For oval stones, these calibrated sizes are referenced in length by width mm sizes - for example, 5x3mm, 6x4mm, 7x5mm, 8x6mm, 9x7mm, 10x8mm, 11x9mm, and 12x10mm.

In your case the smaller sapphire is very close to the standard calibrated size of 8x6mm oval - in actuality, your sapphire is slighter shorter in length, at 7.5mm, and just about right in width, at 5.9mm. An 8x6mm oval setting with 4 prongs to hold the stone can generally still safely secure an oval which is somewhat close to 8x6mm dimensions because of where the 4 prongs are situated -- meaning since the prongs are *not* located at the furthest and widest points of the stone, a stone a bit shorter than 8mm (like your stone at 7.5mm length) can still be secured by the prongs without affecting the safety of the stone or the design of the setting.

Usually going with a stock ring mounting like those of Adwar and Stuller is less expensive than going with a custom-made setting.

Both Adwar and Stuller are located in America, and I think you are in the UK so I don't know if you have the same thing there but I would think so. If you found a setting you liked at Adwar or Stuller (or the UK equivalent), you'd have your local jeweler order it for you and set your stone for you (and any sidestones the setting might require). I know this can be confusing and I likely have not explained it very well, so please let me know if you have questions.

 

[MrsCornishWed]

Ah got it! Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that to me. Yes I am in the UK, I hadn't even realised settings are usually 'stock' ... I just assumed it's all custom! I guess because the jeweller said ' i can make you something like this' when we were looking at stuff he already had in his window.

I am really really nervous about buying a gem online. It seems common sense to source throw the jeweller, but the prices online from the US/Canada seem so much better value per ct
Aside from the fact I plan to wear this everyday, AND I wont ever be replacing it, since it is already replacing a ring (which was actually a really upsetting expierence for us) I'm feeling ALOT of pressure to get this right. I've been dithering since november!

Also, I plan to leave this to my daughter, so aside from sentimental value, I want to actually *have* value. Not that she would ever sell it. Else i'll haunt her from my grave.

 

[sonyachancs]

you wrote that you have chubby fingers, and I think setting the ring e-w is going to help with lots of coverage!

that said though, maybe you should be looking at stones with a length-width ratio close to 1. you might actually be wanting a more elliptical circle so that it makes your fingers look longer. I have longer fingers and most horizontal ovals are decent, but on my mum's chubby fingers, the stone gets lost if it looks like it forms just one thick line with the band (like that image marymm posted with the yellow stone!).

maybe a thin setting and even a halo or a partial halo to help with north-south coverage?

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

I have a 1.67 carat light blue sapphire ring set east/west that I bought from a fellow PS member. Here are some pics to give you an idea.

 

[GliderPoss]

I agree with the others - 2nd stone has better colour. I also think an East-West setting actually tends to makes fingers look chubbier to be honest! I would definitely go for a sleek North-South setting to elongate your fingers. Lots of great info on this site - suggest you spend a little time reading & looking at lots of other stones before pulling the final trigger.

 

[FrekeChild]

Smaller stone - the color is lovely!

1.55ct spinel N/S, I can't remember exactly, but it's around the 5x7ish mark. Size 6.5ish.

 

[chrono]

Shopping across the big pond has its own challenges although I've seen many UK Pricescopers preferring to buy from the US despite having to pay 20% VAT because pricing and selection is better. So yes, please adjust your budget for the sapphire accordingly for the tax. Canada also has its own GST but I'm not sure what the rate is and how it applies to items leaving Canada.

I would not spring for the $40 added appraisal fee due to the conflict of interest (makes no sense that the vendor is providing this because he can write whatever he wants) unless you need it for insurance purposes. Even so, the appraisal needs to have sufficient detailed information so that your insurance company can replace it with something equally good. Just the statement that the colour blue, type sapphire, clarity, shape and carat weight is likely to allow your insurance company to get by with the bare minimum, if this is something that is important to you.

I do not believe for one moment that he sells at "wholesale prices" but that's another gripe I have for another time and day. Based on the pricing he offered, expect heat at the very least, possibly more, but I wouldn't sweat it for your budget. Because sapphires colour shift, ask the vendor what is the light source used for the pictures he took. Sapphires look best under strong diffused natural sunlight and their worst under fluorescent lighting.

 

[MrsCornishWed]

HI all!

So I was up until shockingly late last night searching/researching. . Trying to suss this all out.
Have been speaking to the etsy seller, who sent me a video of the sapphires in my budget. They were all oval though, aside from this, I noticed an odd thing- perhaps I'm paranoid but I've viewed a few videos he's posted within ads, and there are *always* birds chirping away in the background, it sounds odd that I should mention it but it seems a bit artificial to me and made me a bit doubtful about the true lighting. I questioned the treatment and I got a bit of a blanket response in which he basically said '95% of sapphires are treated' - my actual question was quite specific. 'Can you tell me about the heat treatments this stone has been through?'

I dunno, I just feel too uneasy about the quality of the stones. My gut says it's probably a pot luck thing. So I'm getting cold feet at this point. He sent me a video of some sapphires that matched my colour description, I'll link below if anyone was interested! Fyi, the bottom left stone is the small one we were discussing above.

I found some beauties on gemfix, which I've been eyeing up all day.
Chrono, interesting what you say about fees. Etsy seller said he couldn't be sure but had sold to UK buyers with no trouble before... make of that what you will. Is there anyway for me to check the exact fees I will incur? Can you/anyone recommend a UK supplier?? Also thanks for tip about appraisal. This is minefield to me!


Noticed another thread where there was talk of Windows, too shallow cuts... how on earth would someone like me know how to spot this???



http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=kuLvCR5dRC8

 

[MrsCornishWed]

P.s, love the pic of sparkles! Pretty and definitely interesting/helpful.

 

[chrono]

This might be useful with regards to how to handle the VAT on your end.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/paying-vat-import-duties.75970/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/paying-vat-import-duties.75970/[/URL]
https://www.gov.uk/vat-rates

Sounds as though the vendor (Rogerio himself?) took these videos outdoors?
You can be more specific about the heat treatment by asking if the sapphires have been diffused or clarity enhanced.

Top left sapphire - flat as a pancake with major windowing
Top right sapphire - too silky to the point it looks hazy
Bottom left sapphire - nicest of the group, cut and colour-wise. I would follow up with a request for a picture of the sapphire under fluorescent lights. I would like to see more pictures or a longer video of this sapphire (close ups) to see if there are other potential issues with the colour, cut, or anything else.

GemFix will not sell stones more than $1K to anyone outside the USA.

As for cut issues, the videos are very helpful for PSers to advise of potential cut issues on your behalf.

 

[MrsCornishWed]

Thank you Chrono! Ya know if it's a 2o% charge I actually think it's going to be splitting hairs when it comes to price difference.. perhaps I should dig deeper for a UK supplier.


Also feeling a bit guilty about the tone of my previous post 're. Etsy seller.. in fairness to him communication has been quick and pleasant.

 

[chrono]

This is the only UK vendor I've seen mentioned here by other Pricescopers who've had good experiences with. I like this one best of all the options presented and it is within your budget. I think the 20% VAT is also already included. Again, it says heat but I would want more pictures and find out if it has been diffused. I think the colour will appear lighter IRL (a dark background can play tricks on our eyes).
http://www.topgem.co.uk/acatalog/Blue_Sapphire_1086761.html

 

[MrsCornishWed]

Ooh interesting! Have had a quick look, it's so difficult to tell with the dark background isn't it! They do all appear a much darker/royal blue than I'm looking for. This one is around 350 but then the rest shown jump way higher, there seems no in between. . . If I could find a 7mm round or square cushion cut in a light, very medium- not icy but a warm 'periwinkle' with a whole lotta sparkle for a really good price I'd be chuffed. So far I cannot find this (for under 1k gbp ) though. Ideally I just want to keep myself from shelling out too much though, as I have to consider the budget for setting too!

Could you explain diffusion?

 

[chrono]

You'll have to scroll down a bit to get to the diffusion part.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/corundum-sapphire-and-ruby-treatment.175354/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/corundum-sapphire-and-ruby-treatment.175354/[/URL]

Copied from the link above:

Sapphires or corundum undergo various treatments ranging from heat only (sometimes this is referred to as low heat although the temperature isn't low at all), diffusion (heated to almost melting point and minerals are added to alter the original colour), clarity enhancement and irradiation. Although this article was written in 2003, it still provides useful information about diffusion.
http://lgdl.gia.edu/pdfs/su03a1.pdf

Beryllium diffusion is done to improve all colours of corundum, turning almost colourless or pale corundum into stunning yellow and orange sapphires, pink sapphire into a “padparadscha” appearance or a vivid orange, as well as the conversion of bluish rubies to a fine red color. It also can reduce the amount of blue in dark blue sapphires, rendering them a more attractive colour. Not all sapphires treated with beryllium show an intense colour though, so a bright vivid coloured sapphire isn't the only suspect for diffusion.

There are many types of diffusion, begining with titanium where it produced a blue layer under the surface, called “surface diffusion” by some gemologists. If you cut into the stone, you can see this effect easily, where it shows the effect of the colour only on the outer rim. With Be diffusion, the induced colour layer penetrates deep into the stone, giving it a full and even colouration. Beryllium is introduced into corundum by adding chrysoberyl to the crucibles in which the stones are heated. As you can see in the many pictures in the article, sapphires from different locales in the world have been subjected to diffusion, not just Songea sapphires.

Be diffused stones can be identified by mass spectroscopy like SIMS analysis, LIBS and LA-ICP-MS but these technique is expensive and time consuming. Usually, the presence of certain inclusions is sufficient to prove a particular stone has not been exposed to the high heat temperatures required for diffusions and therefore could not be diffused.

1. CO2 Inclusions – Internal “voids” that contain water and a bubble of carbon dioxide (CO2) are quite common in sapphires from some localities, particularly Sri Lanka. Because CO2 expands when heated, these inclusions cannot survive the very high temperatures necessary for Be diffusion. Therefore, the presence of undamaged inclusions would prove that a stone has not been Be-diffusion treated.

2. Internal voids filled with other liquids will also not survive high-temperature heat treatment. The presence of undamaged liquid-filled voids of any kind proves that no Be treatment has occurred.

3. Included Crystals – The presence of undamaged zircon crystals in a sapphire is a good indication that Be diffusion treatment has not taken place. It is unlikely that any crystalline inclusion could survive the temperatures required for Be diffusion without being significantly altered. Therefore, the presence of transparent, angular, or rounded solid grains of any mineral would be an excellent indication that Be diffusion has not taken place.

4. Rutile Needles – Needle-like inclusions of rutile, often referred to as “silk,” are common in corundum from many localities. These needles usually survive the lower-temperature heat treatments that are performed on some sapphires. However, they typically do not survive the higher-temperature treatments to which most blue sapphires and rubies are subjected, including the very high temperatures necessary for Be-diffusion treatment. The presence of unaltered rutile needles means that a stone has not been exposed to this (or any other) high-temperature treatment.

Diffused corundum is not affect by routine cleaning (steam and ultrasonic) and jewellery repair procedures. The treatment is stable and permanent. However, it is well known that the use of borax-containing chemicals (both fire coat and flux) contributes to moderate to severe surface etching of corundum. If etching due to exposure to borax-containing compounds is severe enough, the stone might have to be repolished.

Transparent corundum is actually a common commodity. Only corundum in attractive colors and color saturation levels is rare. There are large deposits of sapphire that can produce large stones in unmarketable colors. Conventional heat treatment can improve only a very small percentage of such material. However, it appears that much, if not most, of this material can be Be diffused to produce attractive colours.

Pictures of before and after diffusion.
http://www.palagems.com/gods_graves_sapphires.htm

 

[chrono]

Anything that catches your eye here?
https://www.etsy.com/shop/JuliaBJewelry?ref=shopsection_shophome_leftnav

 

[MrsCornishWed]

http://youtu.be/g9nh3yJjiDI


And actually, http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=zIQqg8RPl-U

Unfortunatly i think either would require a new w.band to suit...

 

[MrsCornishWed]

Im learning that US and UK 'Styles' seem to be so different! Ive not seen one style that i've ever seen in a uk store. Everything is definitely bigger in the US!