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sorting out cutter confusion

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noles9498

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
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34
Ok so let me see if I have this straight from what I''ve read over the last two hours. Lazare Kaplan sells under their own brand but also cuts for high end retail stores like Tiffany & Co., etc., to sell as their own store brand. And, in that case, they''re probably the Kaplan who cut the very unique diamond I saw at Harrod''s in London the other day. The LKs (brand) are only round but they cut other shapes for other stores?

Are the "color enhanced" stones only sold under the LK name only or is there a chance that retail store stones cut by them are enhanced? If so, what are all of the questions I should ask to make sure that it''s natural? Does GIA certify the enhanced stones? (I think from reading some other posts that they do, with disclosure, but just want to make sure.)

As an aside, I''m not exactly sure why a company with a seemingly good reputation would get involved with color enhancement?!?!

Still studying....
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
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4,924
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Ok so let me see if I have this straight from what I've read over the
last two hours. Lazare Kaplan sells under their own brand but also
cuts for high end retail stores like Tiffany & Co., etc., to sell as
their own store brand.
------------

Correct, although I think that the diamond is still identifiable as a Lazare Kaplan stone even if sold through another store. LK stones carry the "LK" emblem and a GIA certificate number inscibed on their girdle.

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And, in that case, they're probably the Kaplan who cut the very
unique diamond I saw at Harrod's in London the other day.
------------

Most probably so.

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The LKs (brand) are only round but they cut other shapes for other
stores?
------------

I'm not as familiar with the non-round stones they cut.

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Are the "color enhanced" stones only sold under the LK name only or
is there a chance that retail store stones cut by them are enhanced?
------------

The HPHT color enhanced diamonds are marketed under the name "Belletaire", with each one having a registry mark laser inscribed on the girdle. They also have a GIA certificate number inscribed on the girdle if they have been submitted to the lab, which I think, but am not certain, that they do with all Belletaire stones.

Lazare Kaplan has been more than diligent in making sure that all HPHT stones are identified and marked as being such. I'm confident that any high end stores selling them will be aware of them and disclose it as well.

------------
If so, what are all of the questions I should ask to make sure that
it's natural? Does GIA certify the enhanced stones? (I think from
reading some other posts that they do, with disclosure, but just want
to make sure.)
------------

Just tell them that you want to avoid any HPHT stones (if that's your intent), and ask to see the certification, along with any identifying characteristics on the girdle. Treated stones will be identified as such on both the girdle and the GIA cert.

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As an aside, I'm not exactly sure why a company with a seemingly good
reputation would get involved with color enhancement?!?!
------------

I'm sure that LK thought long and hard before they gave HPHT treated stones their backing. In their favor, I have to say that it is certainly a "classy" kind of treatment. It has no negative "look" to it, and is detectable only by gemologists with sophisticated equipment. The nature of the treatment is kind of "natural" in itself (if I may be so sacriligous as to say so), in that the high temperature and high pressure (HPHT) relieves a "strain" in the diamond with a resultant improvement in the color.

In short, it's not your everyday garden variety sort of treatment. Like the heat treating of sapphires to improve color, it is a sort of "helping along" of the process which mother nature started. Identifiable and priced accordingly, it will eventually create a market of it's own just like all enhanced stones have over the decades and centuries.

Personally, I'm glad that a reputable company like Lazare Kaplan took the bull by the horns in the HPHT market. By their example and excellent marketing introduction of the process, I think they alleviated a lot of dealer and consumer fears regarding this "mysterious" new treatment entering the market. Everything is in order, above board and well accounted for.
 

niceice

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
1,792

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Personally, I'm glad that a reputable company like Lazare Kaplan took the bull by the horns in the HPHT market

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Are we mistaken or did LK only take "the bull by the horns" after having their reputation splattered about all over the trades for slipping thousands of HPHT stones through the GIA undetected... As we recall, they didn't come clean until they were busted. Do a search on http://www.diamonds.net and read the history of the disclosure of this treatment, it may change the way you look at the situation.

 

niceice

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
1,792
Case in point. From Rapaport News "TRADE ALERT 3/19/99":


"While diamond treatments have been around for some time, the shocking aspect of the new GE process is that according to the GIA, there is currently no way to detect this treatment. LKI has indicated that a large number of GE treated stones were sent through the major labs over the past few months and all obtained grading reports without any comment on the reports regarding treatment. Furthermore, LKI one of the most respectable and prestigious firms in the diamond industry, has taken the position that this treatment process is and will forever be undetectable and therefore should not require disclosure. According to some reports LKI's subsidiary may actually sell the treated diamonds with GIA grading reports that do not indicate that the stones have been treated."

Yea, as we recall it, LK didn't decide to act in good faith until the entire industry jumped all over them
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
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Furthermore, LKI one of the most respectable and prestigious firms in
the diamond industry, has taken the position that this treatment
process is and will forever be undetectable and therefore should not
require disclosure.
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Martin Rapaport is correct in reporting here that LKI is one of the most respectable and prestigious firms in the diamond industry. At the time this was written, there was no gemological testing protocol in place that detected HPHT treatment. If I remember correctly, LKI eventually submitted thousands of stones to GIA for extensive databases to be built in which they finally detected a recognizable pattern to the identification of treated stones.

At that point, LKI realized the treatment was detectable, and should therefore be disclosed, which they did from that point forward.

If the treatment had turned out to be permanent and undetectable, then just like in the world of colored stones, there would have been no discount assessed to them and no legal requirements of disclosure.

Perhaps not the most ideal introduction of a new treatment on the market, but I think in the long run they did a very respectable job of it after they realized they were incorrect in their assumptions.
 

niceice

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
1,792
LK might have cooperated with the GIA after they were busted, but that still doesn't change the fact that they failed to notify the labs of the development of the treatment prior to sending the diamonds through the laboratories for treatment... It seems that LK only cooperated with the GIA when public outcry reached a level which potentially damaged their business. We really recommend you read the early articles published by Rapaport on this subject... If a certain independent gemologist had not blown the whistle on LK who knows what kind of irreperable damage they may have inflicted upon the trade and the diamond market. It is customary and common practice to involve the GIA and other laboratories in the process of developing detection techniques during the development of the treatments, LK failed to do this! We lost a lot of the respect we once had for LK as a company as a result of their involvement in this situation... We highly doubt that such a deviant abuse of the public trust would have occured when LK was alive and running the company, but now that it's a corporation, it seems to be being run on the premise of everything is okay as long as nobody finds out what you're doing... How sad!
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
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It is customary and common practice to involve the
GIA and other laboratories in the process of
developing detection techniques during the
development of the treatments, LK failed to do
this!
-----------

Point taken, and I agree. They could have handled it better.
 

noles9498

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
34
Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed reply. Since I'm in Fort Lauderdale maybe I'll take a ride over and have you take a peek at the stone when it arrives in a few weeks.

(then maybe I can learn that I was silly to fall in love with it and dreadfully overpay
)
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
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Since I'm in Fort Lauderdale maybe I'll take a ride over and have you
take a peek at the stone when it arrives in a few weeks.
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Sounds like fun!

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(then maybe I can learn that I was silly to fall in love with it and
dreadfully overpay)
-----------

It's never silly to fall in love!
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
You took the words right out of my mouth....Rich...or is that off of my keyboard?


Regardless of how the stone checks out, if you fall in love with it, keep it! If you overpaid, you can use the appraisal to finagle a better deal on the stone. Beauty is definitelyin the 'eye' when it comes to stones...looking good on paper is one thing but since you already saw it and love it..I wouldn't worry!

Most likely it will check out fine! Eyes don't lie you know (no matter what the song says...)
 
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