Someone please tell me that this isn't true...

[Pandora II]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges

Nuts!

 

[mayerling]

I tried to view the article you posted, but I was redirected to a broken link page...

 

[Pandora II]

Should work now...

It's all over the UK press this morning.

 

[JewelFreak]

Oh for heaven's sake! Insanity takes over.

 

[mayerling]

I don't condone any type of habit during pregnancy - be it drugs, alcohol, tobacco, etc. - but I think this is taking it too far.

 

[megumic]

I think it depends on where you live and how progressive your state laws are. I haven't heard of this until today and it seems to predominantly be in the very conservative right-winged bible belt states, but it is certainly interesting to me. I'm not quite sure how this is going down, considering it seems to concern a lot of constitutional rights.

My primary concern with such criminal laws is where does the buck stop? While I find it outrageous to criminalize women on account of their behaviors/addictions/mental conditions while pregnant, will the law go so far as to criminalize women who don't eat enough? Forget their vitamins? Drink while pregnant? Engage in other risky behaviors?

 

[mayerling]

I think it depends on where you live and how progressive your state laws are. I haven't heard of this until today and it seems to predominantly be in the very conservative right-winged bible belt states, but it is certainly interesting to me. I'm not quite sure how this is going down, considering it seems to concern a lot of constitutional rights.

My primary concern with such criminal laws is where does the buck stop? While I find it outrageous to criminalize women on account of their behaviors/addictions/mental conditions while pregnant, will the law go so far as to criminalize women who don't eat enough? Forget their vitamins? Drink while pregnant? Engage in other risky behaviors?

Well said.

 

[Pandora II]

What about drinking coffee then? Caffeine intake is a risk factor for miscarriage.

Babies whose mothers who drink 3 cups a day while pregnant go through a very similar withdrawal as babies whose mothers taken opiates - however those exposed to opiates are treated and don't suffer unlike those withdrawing from caffeine.

My biggest worry would be the effect that this could have on parents who are already suffering the trauma of a miscarriage, still-birth or neonatal death.

Perhaps if these states spent their time and money on looking after the vulnerable then they would need to prosecute 15 year-olds as they wouldn't be getting PG in the first place. It does seem a bit (from the outside) like a case of we will fight like crazy to give you rights and celebrate you right up until you are born and then frankly you can just hope you got dealt the right cards as we're onto the next foetus...

 

[Imdanny]

I'm very sorry to have to report that this kind of insanity in our politics lately and this idea specifically isn't original. It absolutely is true that conservatives keep trying in various states to criminalize women who have miscarriages and similar other just utterly insane attacks against a woman's Constitutional right to choose as interpreted in settled law by our Supreme Court in the '70's and in this case in Mississippi have apparently suceeded. You have to remember this is a country where doctors who perform abortions are targeted and murdered by these right wing idiots. No, I wish I could tell you it wasn't true, or was all that surprising to me.

 

[ksinger]

Sadly, no surprises here. Just part of a concerted effort to pretty much repeal the 20th century. I'm sure Oklahoma legislators, when they aren't leading the charge mind you, are taking notes.

 

[ksinger]

What about drinking coffee then? Caffeine intake is a risk factor for miscarriage.

Babies whose mothers who drink 3 cups a day while pregnant go through a very similar withdrawal as babies whose mothers taken opiates - however those exposed to opiates are treated and don't suffer unlike those withdrawing from caffeine.

My biggest worry would be the effect that this could have on parents who are already suffering the trauma of a miscarriage, still-birth or neonatal death.

Perhaps if these states spent their time and money on looking after the vulnerable then they would need to prosecute 15 year-olds as they wouldn't be getting PG in the first place. It does seem a bit (from the outside) like a case of we will fight like crazy to give you rights and celebrate you right up until you are born and then frankly you can just hope you got dealt the right cards as we're onto the next foetus...

Pandora, honey, understand this: the people pushing for this DON'T CARE. Ideology trumps all true compassion or common sense. All the time. The zealots have control and they are going to make hay while they have it.

 

[yennyfire]

I live in a state where this law has been proposed. As someone who has suffered two miscarriages, I am appalled. I blamed myself after each m/c, despite the fact that rationally, I knew that I hadn't done anything to cause them. I get that using illegal drugs while pregnant is a horrible, reckless thing to do, but my guess is that many of the women who have these addictions don't PLAN to get pg. and kicking the drug habit once they do get pg isn't an easy thing to do. Either way, prosecuting someone for this is insane....

 

[ksinger]

Yes, but according to stuff I've read and young women I've talked to, we're living in a post-feminist world. The struggles of my mother's generation, and even my own, seem to be seen as somewhat shrill and irrelevant to them. Of course, those same young women are going to be most impacted by this complacency too, but what can you do?

 

[AN0NYM0US]

What about drinking coffee then? Caffeine intake is a risk factor for miscarriage.

Babies whose mothers who drink 3 cups a day while pregnant go through a very similar withdrawal as babies whose mothers taken opiates - however those exposed to opiates are treated and don't suffer unlike those withdrawing from caffeine.

A great reason for pregnant women to not drink coffee when pregnant. Being a responsible parent should apply at conception, not birth. Where I live it is illegal to smoke in a car when a child under the age of 12 is present and I consider cigarette smoke safer (I don't smoke) than putting cocaine directly into my child's bloodstream.

I am happy to see laws that protect those who cannot protect themselves.

 

[dragonfly411]

Kinda makes you want to not have kids.... what if I drank wine before knowing I was pregnant... and my baby dies prematurely? It's now my fault? Are women going to be to blame for miscarriages. This makes me think back to reading about women being shunned for not giving birth to sons in the middle ages. Scary.

 

[AN0NYM0US]

Kinda makes you want to not have kids.... what if I drank wine before knowing I was pregnant... and my baby dies prematurely? It's now my fault? Are women going to be to blame for miscarriages.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/intent

 

[chemgirl]

Wow, at first I thought this article was a spoof, or some sort of propaganda designed to make Americans look ridiculous to the rest of the world. I'm shocked to hear that its the reality for women in some states.

This article is just scary! I want a list of those states so I don't accidentally visit them while pregnant. I'm sure nobody is perfect while pregnant and a case could be made against most women. I mean, what about everything you do before you know you're pregnant? If I found out I was pregnant today I would be horrified by all of the wine, beer, caffeine, medications, and secondhand smoke I've been exposed to during the last few months. Its a slippery slope from illegal drugs to caffeine. What if a pregnant woman forgets to take vitamins or eats soft cheese? Cause and effect doesn't seem to be the defining factor here.

I live in an area that has laws against smoking in a car with children, but to me that's different. Even if you are addicted to cigarette's, you can stop, get out of your car, and smoke. You don't have to expose your children to it, you can simply go outside. A pregnant woman can't get that separation. I don't agree with smoking, or doing anything harmful during pregnancy, but its not simply a matter of quitting the moment you have sex (if they quit when they found out they were pregnant I bet they would still be "guilty" ugh).

 

[VapidLapid]

Oi vey!
America is the new Iran, and the conservative right the new Taliban.

 

[random_thought]

It would be nuts to prosecute a woman for losing her child naturally. However, if a 33 week pregnant lady drinks RAT POISON; then by all means lock her up! How terrible it was of her to take the life of that child that way!! They really need to reword these laws differently but for some people, they really deserve it..

 

[iheartscience]

Oi vey!
America is the new Iran, and the conservative right the new Taliban.

Yep. The best part is that the right wing conservatives love to rail against big government. They like their government just small enough to fit in a woman's uterus.

 

[megumic]

It would be nuts to prosecute a woman for losing her child naturally. However, if a 33 week pregnant lady drinks RAT POISON; then by all means lock her up! How terrible it was of her to take the life of that child that way!! They really need to reword these laws differently but for some people, they really deserve it..

I disagree. To me, a 33-week pregnant woman who drinks rat poison certainly has a mental condition, disease or impairment that is causing her to drink rat poison while carrying a viable fetus. Indeed, even a woman who is not pregnant who drinks rat poison has some mental deficiency in need of professional attention.

Are you saying you advocate punishing (edited to add criminalizing)the mentally infirm?

 

[Lauren8211]

The direction of my country currently terrifies me.

 

[random_thought]

It would be nuts to prosecute a woman for losing her child naturally. However, if a 33 week pregnant lady drinks RAT POISON; then by all means lock her up! How terrible it was of her to take the life of that child that way!! They really need to reword these laws differently but for some people, they really deserve it..

I disagree. To me, a 33-week pregnant woman who drinks rat poison certainly has a mental condition, disease or impairment that is causing her to drink rat poison while carrying a viable fetus. Indeed, even a woman who is not pregnant who drinks rat poison has some mental deficiency in need of professional attention.

Are you saying you advocate punishing (edited to add criminalizing)the mentally infirm?

No I'm not. I think a lot of people who are in jail like the article said she was would rather die than be there. I don't think it necessarily makes her insane. She could have been thinking quite clearly and just had no regard for her child. So in that case, I think it should be punished. Obviously they should test her mental condition BEFORE sentencing her; but if she passes the tests; yes, lock her up.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

This is putting the cart before the horse. Either an unborn baby is a person or not. It's can't be a person when mom wants to do drugs, but a nonperson when mom wants an abortion. We as a country have decided that the unborn child is a nonperson, which is why abortion is legal. It is illogical to then punish people for crimes against unborn children as if they are people. I feel the same way about punishment for murder or manslaughter of a pregnant woman - the baby is not legally a person, so the criminal should not get a stiffer penalty due to the pregnancy.

I am okay with making it a crime to do drugs while pregnant, but I am also okay with banning abortion as an elective procedure. However, you can't logically punish someone for a crime against a fetus, if that fetus isn't legally a person. So since babies are not persons, I think these laws are unconstitutional.

Comparing our country to Iran and the Taliban is a bit extreme, don't you think?

 

[TooPatient]

I'd be interested to see the actual text of the law.

It may be, as the article said, criminalizing innocent women who have already suffered the loss of a child.

It is also possible that the actual text is pretty clear and is only supposed to be used in extreme cases.


BUT --- I think the actual text of the law needs to be seen before ANY conclusions are drawn one way or the other.

 

[TooPatient]

Found this through the Mississippi government website --- LINK

§ 97-3-3. Abortion; causing abortion or miscarriage.

(1) Any person wilfully and knowingly causing, by means of any instrument, medicine, drug or other means whatever, any woman pregnant with child to abort or miscarry, or attempts to procure or produce an abortion or miscarriage shall be guilty of a felony unless the same were done by a duly licensed, practicing physician:

(a) Where necessary for the preservation of the mother's life;

(b) Where pregnancy was caused by rape.


Said person shall, upon conviction, be imprisoned in the State Penitentiary not less than one (1) year nor more than ten (10) years; provided, however, if the death of the mother results therefrom, the person procuring, causing or attempting to procure or cause the illegal abortion or miscarriage shall be guilty of murder.


(2) No act prohibited in subsection (1) of this section shall be considered exempt under the provisions of subparagraph (a) thereof unless performed upon the prior advice in writing, of two (2) reputable licensed physicians.

(3) The license of any physician or nurse shall be automatically revoked upon conviction under the provisions of this section.

(4) Nothing in this section shall be construed as conflicting with Section 41-41-73.


Sources: Codes, 1942, § 2223; Laws, 1952, ch. 260, §§ 1-3; Laws, 1966, ch. 358, § 1; Laws, 1997, ch. 350, § 3, eff from and after July 1, 1997.

 

[TooPatient]

Since it is referred to in the above law, I'll post this one too. Also from the government website --- LINK:


§ 41-41-73. Partial-birth abortions prohibited; penalties for violations.

(1) Any physician who knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than Twenty-five Thousand Dollars ($25,000.00) or imprisoned in the State Penitentiary for not more than two (2) years, or both. This subsection shall not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, illness, or injury if no other medical procedure would suffice for that purpose.

(2) (a) As used in this section, "partial-birth abortion" means an abortion in which the person performing the abortion partially vaginally delivers a living fetus before killing the fetus and completing the delivery.

(b) As used in this section, "physician" means a doctor of medicine or osteopathy legally authorized to practice medicine and surgery by the State of Mississippi. However, any individual who is not a physician but who nevertheless directly performs a partial-birth abortion shall be subject to the provisions of this section.

(3) (a) The husband of a mother at the time she receives a partial-birth abortion procedure, and if the mother has not attained the age of eighteen (1 years at the time of the abortion, the mother's parents may in a civil action obtain appropriate relief, unless the pregnancy resulted from the plaintiff's criminal conduct or the plaintiff consented to the abortion.

(b) Such relief shall include:
(i) Money damages for all injuries, psychological and physical, occasioned by the violation of this section; and
(ii) Statutory damages equal to three (3) times the cost of the partial-birth abortion.

(4) A woman upon whom a partial-birth abortion is performed may not be prosecuted under this section for a conspiracy to violate this section.

Sources: Laws, 1997, ch. 350, § 2, eff from and after July 1, 1997.

 

[dragonfly411]

This is putting the cart before the horse. Either an unborn baby is a person or not. It's can't be a person when mom wants to do drugs, but a nonperson when mom wants an abortion. We as a country have decided that the unborn child is a nonperson, which is why abortion is legal. It is illogical to then punish people for crimes against unborn children as if they are people. I feel the same way about punishment for murder or manslaughter of a pregnant woman - the baby is not legally a person, so the criminal should not get a stiffer penalty due to the pregnancy.

I am okay with making it a crime to do drugs while pregnant, but I am also okay with banning abortion as an elective procedure. However, you can't logically punish someone for a crime against a fetus, if that fetus isn't legally a person. So since babies are not persons, I think these laws are unconstitutional.

Comparing our country to Iran and the Taliban is a bit extreme, don't you think?

I agree and disagree with the first part of your post. There are time constraints on abortion which make it illegal to have an abortion after a certain point in time. In the case of women who do these things they have that time allowance as well, though they may have to go out of state, and would be able to seek out an abortion. But if they choose to do the same act after the general time constraints placed on abortion there is no legal or medical way to offer control over that and yes I would deem it taking a life. At the same time, there are circumstances where I think abortions should most certainly be allowed, mainly cases of rape or other such abuse, or if there is no way that a child would lead any kind of normal, healthy or conscious life.

I think this is a slippery slope. Technically substance abuse is a mental illness, and I think in the case of addiction, women should be offered some kind of support to stop substance abuse while pregnant. Those who don't seek out the support could certainly be tried, since there is an option for getting help to stop so that the baby will have a healthy chance. In the case of someone who swallows rat poison, I agree that they should be tested for mental impairments and if found clear of any such impairments they should be tried, though I don't know that I'd call it premeditated, since they were technically trying to take their own life first in all likelihood. Unfortunately I think that there would be a lot of intricacies that would make each case unique and hard to try, and I think that the courts will run into that problem, unless they do as they are doing now and offer no other options than to be tried for murder when any miscarriage or abortion happens, which is insane.

 

[VapidLapid]

This is putting the cart before the horse. Either an unborn baby is a person or not. It's can't be a person when mom wants to do drugs, but a nonperson when mom wants an abortion. We as a country have decided that the unborn child is a nonperson, which is why abortion is legal. It is illogical to then punish people for crimes against unborn children as if they are people. I feel the same way about punishment for murder or manslaughter of a pregnant woman - the baby is not legally a person, so the criminal should not get a stiffer penalty due to the pregnancy.

I am okay with making it a crime to do drugs while pregnant, but I am also okay with banning abortion as an elective procedure. However, you can't logically punish someone for a crime against a fetus, if that fetus isn't legally a person. So since babies are not persons, I think these laws are unconstitutional.

Comparing our country to Iran and the Taliban is a bit extreme, don't you think?

Comparisons can always be made, even between apples and oranges. However, I did not compare our country with iran and the taliban. I did certainly liken the right-wing conservative cult in our country (and government) to the powers that be in Iran and the Taliban. Indeed, it is important to be vigilant in noting these similarities. Otherwise we are in grave danger of losing the ability to make the distinctions. Many in America have already lost that higher faculty.

 

[charbie]

Ohio just passed in the House that abortions would be illegal if there has been a heartbeat detected. This law would make Ohio the most restrictive in the country when it comes to abortion laws.



Yay for just having moved across the river to Kentucky....which is kinda funny that moving to a place that seems a bit less progressive actually isn't as crazy as the state I was born and raised!