Should little kids be banned from some restaurants?

[Arkteia]

crasru... Most working dogs are incredibly well trained for every situation. I have seen them many times in restaurants and not thought twice about it.

Why? They walk in. Do not look at anyone's food, or nose up at a table. Noses down, eyes alert. Then when they are seated they are laying on the ground, snoozing. Not begging for scraps or on a chair, or (heaven help me Carmel can really scar you) licking people's faces in the middle of a meal. Then they get up and walk out when it is time.

There was a time when people trained their children how to behave in restaurants. The kids would come in, holding a parents hand and talking in an inside voice. Would sit and eat their meal without disturbing those around them. And then leave without any kicking, screaming or tantrums. Those times have passed apparently and now it is perfectly acceptable for parents to abdicate on all responsibility regarding teaching their children how to behave in public and then those same parents get offended when others don't care to have their ill mannered children inflicted on them. And the problem is you never know if you are going to get the responsible parents and the well mannered child. Or the irresponsible parent and their brat.

BUT if there was some sort of "service dog training" certification course for kids and vest that they earn that SHOWS that they can act at least as good as a service dog. Then sure... I'd let the kid with the vest in to my restaurant.

Problem is.... yes... your parenting choices are YOUR BUSINESS. But don't be surprised if I don't want to deal with them in MY life or my restaurant if those choices don't include teaching your child how to be well mannered in public. Either you accept that other people's opinions have some merit and raise your child so that it is conscious that it's behavior impacts others and people will be happy to have that child around. Or you can ignore what everyone else says and decide that you feel that the word "NO" inhibits their development (into what? Brats?) and then you have a child that has no regard for anyone, including its parents, but certainly not strangers. And then you will get strangers who feel that your child's behavior inhibits their enjoyment of places and events, and so they tell YOU the parent NO to bringing your child to those places and events.

Cause and effect.

Why does anyone automatically expect a kid to misbehave? Just because it is a kid.
And - sorry - I have to reiterate this point - it is especially obvious in Europe - I see many tourists parading around in shorts, walking into churches and restaurants and not thinking twice about it! My son said that even in Turkey, in mosques, he saw tourists in shorts! No one would walk them out. (In Russia, actually, they would, but Russia is very Orthodox). Why is this considered to be polite and appropriate? Why am I supposed to see someone's crack popping out of jeans when I am sitting in a restaurant during "Sunset cruise"? (And it was not a teenager - a pretty hefty adult! My dad almost choked on his food when he saw it). And no one would say, excuse me, sir, long pants are expected. I mean, if we start a crusade for good behavior, let us also be consistent!

 

[AmeliaG]

The foodie forums have a lot of discussion about kids in restaurants. I just found an interesting exchange in one about why there seem to be fewer badly behaved children in restaurants in France.

On the topic of the behaviour of French children, perhaps it is true that only the well-behaved children are taken out for nice meals, but I think that it is just that, in general, babies are taught from birth that mealtimes are not just about eating, but also a time for the family to be together.

I think you may have nailed this.

Meal time is family time which means first, that parents pay attention to the children, which minimizes fussing; second, that people are more relaxed about younger family members at the table, which minimizes stress (on both sides). The kids both get attention and get taught to mind their manners, so they're less likely to crank out in the first place. The adults demand good behavior but pay attention to the kids, and they recognize that children are children and not perfect, so they neither freak out nor ignore it if the kid gets a little fussy.

Because it's family time, there is both a high standard of behavior and a certain tolerance (kind of like dinner at grandma's, in the Busboy clan), which keeps the stress level down, which keeps the kids from acting out which keeps the grown-ups from either spoiling or whacking the kids which means -- voila -- a delightful meal all around.

 

[yssie]

Why does anyone automatically expect a kid to misbehave? Just because it is a kid.
And - sorry - I have to reiterate this point - it is especially obvious in Europe - I see many tourists parading around in shorts, walking into churches and restaurants and not thinking twice about it! My son said that even in Turkey, in mosques, he saw tourists in shorts! No one would walk them out. (In Russia, actually, they would, but Russia is very Orthodox). Why is this considered to be polite and appropriate? Why am I supposed to see someone's crack popping out of jeans when I am sitting in a restaurant during "Sunset cruise"? (And it was not a teenager - a pretty hefty adult! My dad almost choked on his food when he saw it). And no one would say, excuse me, sir, long pants are expected. I mean, if we start a crusade for good behavior, let us also be consistent!

Crasru I have seen this in India, too - teenage girls in tank tops and short shorts - or worse, short skirts! In a culture that cringes at overly fitted garments and bare shoulders, let alone legs, thighs, upper chests and navels...

It's just another presentation of the same disorder though: people who don't bother to investigate the places they're visiting, who are arrogant enough to feel that their wants supersede the comfort of those around them, are the same ones toting around the wailing reprobates.


I actually don't have a problem with well behaved kids in nice restaurants - and I've seen it happen, so I know it's possible! I myself was apparently carted around with my parents as a kid, and I'm sure that's a big part of the reason I love trying new foods, the more exotic the better, whereas my DH and Charbie's could share a plate.

I also don't have a problem with an outright ban, though, because I've also had nice meals ruined by children at the next table. It's not just upset, angry, hungry, tired kids that are disruptive either - the earsplitting ultrasonic shrieking of a happy toddler is right on par

 

[Gypsy]

I've said repeatedly that I do NOT assume that kids will automatically behave.

My friends kids do. I did. And there are many good kids.

And I have also repeatedly said I don't think it's the kids at all. But their parent's.

 

[kenny]

If one person is offended by an exposed knee, another's offended by an exposed arm and someone else is offended by an exposed face.

At one time exposing ANY part of a woman was shocking.



Even today in some places exposing women is not allowed.
Maybe we should force everyone to dress so NOBODY is offended by exposed body parts.



It's all relative.
In many expensive Californian restaurants they don't care how you dress, as long as your VISA card clears.

 

[Arkteia]

Kenny, this is funny!

I was thinking about this whole discussion and then started laughing. It just hit me - the whole discussion about kids misbehaving is a moot point. Do you remember how your kids behave? They are quiet, everywhere, they do not run around any longer, they are playing their DIGs, Nintendo DS'es and cellphones. And text when they are slightly older. They are up to their ears in electronics! All that you need to do is to tone down the sound. They are very, very quiet these days!

Which in fact is a sad moment, I'd rather see kids running around than texting.

 

[oobiecoo]

Ok I'm really confused here...

Its illegal to ban breastfeeding women from places of business... shops, restaurants, etc. But we can ban kids? How is it different? Its still discrimination.

 

[ksinger]

Ok I'm really confused here...

Its illegal to ban breastfeeding women from places of business... shops, restaurants, etc. But we can ban kids? How is it different? Its still discrimination.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I'm sure someone will burden our courts with deciding at some point.

Like anything that starts out well, cries of discrimination and what we declare as such, can (and will) be taken too far. The bottom line, is there are a bunch of parents with no sense, no boundaries, and no class, and who have much more contempt for their own children (as evidenced by the fact that they refuse to actually RAISE them to have self-control - probably because they have little themselves) than any person wishing a decent dinner. We are desperately trying to legislate a standard of behavior and decorum that used to be broadly agreed upon across American culture, but is no longer.

** I use the term "legislate" somewhat loosely here, I admit. But you get the point.

 

[sillyberry]

Ok I'm really confused here...

Its illegal to ban breastfeeding women from places of business... shops, restaurants, etc. But we can ban kids? How is it different? Its still discrimination.

Actually, from what I can gather the legality of breastfeeding in public is a state-by-state issue - it isn't actually per se illegal to ban breastfeeding women (or probably more accurately - not protect the right to breastfeed in public), but most states have done so statutorily.

To your second question, age is generally not a suspect-class for discrimination purposes and age is not generally covered by the Equal Protection Act or other legislation (like race, religion, nationality, etc). Businesses can choose to permit (or not permit) individuals of certain ages to patronize their services. So, clubs might ban anyone under 18, spas might refuse to serve kids under 12, things like that. However, the Age Discrimination in Employment Act statutorily forbids employment discrimination against individuals over 40.

So, this was a long rambling way to say, no, a restaurant choosing to ban kids is not prohibited discrimination in the eyes of the law.

 

[oobiecoo]

Ok I'm really confused here...

Its illegal to ban breastfeeding women from places of business... shops, restaurants, etc. But we can ban kids? How is it different? Its still discrimination.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I'm sure someone will burden our courts with deciding at some point.

Like anything that starts out well, cries of discrimination and what we declare as such, can (and will) be taken too far. The bottom line, is there are a bunch of parents with no sense, no boundaries, and no class, and who have much more contempt for their own children (as evidenced by the fact that they refuse to actually RAISE them to have self-control - probably because they have little themselves) than any person wishing a decent dinner. We are desperately trying to legislate a standard of behavior and decorum that used to be broadly agreed upon across American culture, but is no longer.

** I use the term "legislate" somewhat loosely here, I admit. But you get the point.

By the way, I'm not necessarily saying that banning children is wrong... I just still see it as a form of discrimination and wondering how this can be allowed when other forms cannot. I think some restaurants would be nice without kids screaming. And I agree that alot of people are neglecting to teach their children self control. My children WILL learn "no". Alot of other moms I know refuse to tell their kids "no" and just re-direct or distract them but thats not very effective in my opinion.