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Should I buy this diamond?

E B

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
9,488
Maclark|1456765862|3997362 said:
I am shopping for an engagement ring and have looked at a lot of diamonds. I still feel completely lost however I did find one that stuck out. This diamond is at diamonds direct. The price I got was $7300. Is this a good buy?

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=1218065179&c=Page&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&cid=1355954554547&encryptedString=3133DFDA072ADE89CFABB6E24660EF9C
You can do better. Do you want/need to buy in person, or would you be open to buying online?
 

Maclark

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
5
I would rather buy in person. How much is that diamond worth? Or is it not even a good one to get?
 

Maclark

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
5
I have seen it in person. Here is a picture of it sitting loose in a setting.

20160225_141112.jpg

20160225_141107.jpg
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,171
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

HCA score is 4.8. (You want 2.0 or less)

Comment from the report
"- 8 HEARTS & 8 ARROWS - This Diamond was polished utilizing superior precision & craftsmanship its exquisite proportions generate the appearance of 8 Hearts & 8 Arrows when viewed at the correct angle & under the proper lighting conditions.
- Excellent Ideal Cut"

What kind of legit science lab includes highly undefined and subjective comments and mention CRAFTMANSHIP in its LAB REPORT??
What is the proper angle and lighting conditions to view a diamond? So.. the diamond is not so pretty under improper angles and lighting condition??
A well cut diamond shines brightly at night from ambiance city light. Even the worst cut diamonds have some sort of "Hearts and Arrow" patterns
What a joke.

This jeweller won't get you an ideal cut stone. He/she either does not know anything about well-cut diamonds (surprising there are many jewellers like this) or is trying to rip you off. Sorry, if you really thought those diamonds were pretty. Aren't all diamonds pretty to a certain degree. I don't believe you have seen ideal cut diamonds.

Look for a vendor you will get you a GIA or AGS graded stone with the follow proportions
Cut: GIA Excellent or AGS Ideal
Table 54-58
Depth 62.3 or less
Crown angle 34-35
Pav Angle 40.6-40.9 (41.0 if matched with crown angle or 34)
If not, run and don't engage. No EGL, No IGI, Definitely NO INTERNAL LAB REPORT... etc.... ONLY GIA or AGS.
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
I would only trust a Hearts and arrow comment from HRD. They have set forth the best standards of grading hearts and arrows and it covers the proportions and formation of hearts and arrows in great detail.

The criteria is actually set forth by the IDC and all labs following the IDC standard (HRD et al) grade hearts and arrows accurately.

A diamond with 61 table (pointy hearts), 44 pav depth (undefined arrow shafts), 13 crown height + 61 table = 34 degrees crown angle.. I suppose arrows will not be coloured.. So at least we have arrows.

But that table reflection will be HUGE. and arrow shafts will not be defined = bad arrows.

With those proportions I don't think a stone can be a hearts and arrows.
 

E B

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
9,488
Do you have a Ritani dealer near you?

https://www.ritani.com/story/free-in-store-preview

If you order through them, you can see it for free with no commitments. But I think you'll find better choices here.

This combo is a few hundred more than your setup at the jeweler, but it will most likely be much better quality:

https://www.ritani.com/diamonds/round-diamond-1-30-Carat-H-color-GIA-certified/D-VJ001W
https://www.ritani.com/engagement-r...ith-surprise-diamonds-in-14kt-white-gold/6117

For if you see anything else you like: https://www.ritani.com/diamonds/round-cut
 

Maclark

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
5
Thank you for all the great responses. I'm am going to look at a few more today. I will compare them to the first one I posted. (I have that on one hold)

Why do people say HCA (2.0 or less) is better than GIA EEE? If one of the best Laboratories says it is EEE , why is that not good enough? They can't grade it any higher.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,171
HCA is not necessarily better than GIA grading system.
Each system has its own set of limitations and parameters.
Personally, I use ALL grading systems. That is I pick a stone whose proportions fall under GIA EX, AND AGS Ideal, AND HCA less than 2.0, AND those ideal ranges mentioned above.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Maclark|1457024921|3999140 said:
Thank you for all the great responses. I'm am going to look at a few more today. I will compare them to the first one I posted. (I have that on one hold)

Why do people say HCA (2.0 or less) is better than GIA EEE? If one of the best Laboratories says it is EEE , why is that not good enough? They can't grade it any higher.
We aren't at all saying the HCA is better. And actually when it comes to cut and performance GIA 3X is just overbroad. AGS0 is the standard there in terms of labs for that particular evaluation.

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. With round diamonds even a GIA triple Excellent is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only (HPD in Europe is good as well). EGL is a bad option as we've already discussed.
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
ONE method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones generally, though you can. In general, AGS0 trumps HCA though as one examines the actual stone and the other does not.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform, and weeds out the weaker performers in the overbroad GIA 3X catagory when used this way, to make sure you are getting the maximum value for the money you spend.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.

So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD,BE, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do. You can also buy your own idealscope for 25 bucks if you want to shop locally.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you ideally need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.

Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium. Some AGS0's are better than others though, so pay attention to any ASET or IS provided.

In general with rounds, you will want a table 60% or less. A depth between 59 and 62.4. Crown angle 33.5-35. Pavilion Angle: 40.6-40.8 (there is a little give on this). And the crown and pavilion angles must be complimentary which is what the HCA checks for you.
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,472
Maclark|1457024921|3999140 said:
Thank you for all the great responses. I'm am going to look at a few more today. I will compare them to the first one I posted. (I have that on one hold)

Why do people say HCA (2.0 or less) is better than GIA EEE? If one of the best Laboratories says it is EEE , why is that not good enough? They can't grade it any higher.
The reason that we say this is that GIA rewards steep deep dogs with the Excellent cut grade rating. It should be a crime, but it is not.

Most of the cutters have figured out that with a steep and deep cut they can cut garbage, get rewarded for it by maintaining a price break weight, say 1 ct, 1.5 ct, 2 ct or 3 ct when a properly cut diamond would way less, and many times actually have an equal or larger spread AND be much more beautiful! because of their edge to edge brilliance, thus actually looking larger even if they are slightly smaller.

A few days ago I was talking with a client about a 2.71 ct diamond whose brand I will not mention because of forum rules. He had found some three carats that were cheaper than the 2.71 carat and wondered why. First I asked him to take a look at the measurements of the 2.71 ct.

It measured 8.97 x 8.97 x 5.52. I did a quick search and found a 3.01 ct
It measured 8.97 x 9.02 x 5.84. I did a quick search and found a 3.02 ct
It measured 8.90 x 8.80 x 5.84. It was a worse dog than the 3.01, oh, and it was really cheap compared to some of the other 3 carats, but hey, it was CHEAP. And UGLY I would imagine. I suspect that if I took the time to figure out the recut weight that the stone would weigh if cut properly it would be well below a 2.60 carat diamond. Still it is being priced as a bargain 3 ct and making more money for the cutter than a properly cut diamond of less than three carats.

We looked at several diamonds, and it was not until you got to some diamonds that were actually pretty well cut and a LOT more money that the 3 carat diamonds were diamonds that should have been 3 carats. The price spread that we looked at for 3 carat diamonds was from just over $17,300 to over $49,000. Ironically, the most expensive diamond was a very steep deep, weighed 3.00 carats and was only a VG cut grade with a Thick girdle. It measured 8.94 x 9.00 by 5.83. Much worse cut than many of the better cut yet less expensive diamonds. (Since we were looking only to demonstrate the size of many of the diamonds, our search parameters were not the same as the diamond we were talking about.)

When you say it is GIA EEE and they can not grade it any higher, it seems logical. Sadly, this is not a case where logic is working, since the laboratory bent to the will of the cutters and included too many diamonds that should not be any thing more than poor in their Excellent, very good and good cut grades.

I will say this though. The quality of cutting since GIA came out with their cut grades has improved from where it was. However, the cutters quickly learned that they could add a tremendous amount of weight to their diamonds and still get very good and Excellent cut grades by cutting to much steeper and deeper angles than used to be common. (Guess what we are seeing more and more of? One guess only.) When the public gets even more educated and starts demanding an even better cut grade, then finally, perhaps, GIA will respond to that and then cutting will improve even more. At that time, many of the current GIA Excellent cut grade diamonds will fall from that category and take their rightful place in the lower cut grades where they belong. Then, and only then, will the public be able to expect their GIA excellent cut grade to actually mean anything. Only then can you ask your question and expect that the GIA Excellent cut grade is good enough for real.

Wink
 
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