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Should i be disappointed with low HCA?

HDrider

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
5
Hi,

I just bought an engagement ring for my girlfriend and i'd thought i researched all the details... But i just discovered the HCA tool (of course after i bought it) and the diamond scores a 5.6! My girlfriend has always wanted a really shine diamond and i tried my hardest but it seems i might have failed. I sold my motorcycle to buy this so i'm kind of disappointed in the low HCA score. I've read older threads where people tell the original poster that "HCA isn't everything" but is that just everyone being nice? how can a triple excellent GIA diamond rate so low?.. well i guess i know now since my diamond is cut too deep right? below are the specs. could i have gotten a 5.6 HCA score with just a "good" cut diamond? i feel like i wasted money buying an excellent cut stone that may not sparkle to its full potential.

Round brilliant
1.6 carat
7.43 - 7.47 x 4.68
G Color
VVS1
Excellent Cut
Excellent Polish
Excellent Symmetry
Fluorescence None
Table 58%
depth 62.8"
crown 34.5
Pavilion 41.6
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,629
Can you return it? That is a very high HCA score. You want a low score of 2.0 or under. One big problem is that the diamond faces up like a 1.5 ct because it is too deep. You'd be better off getting a better cut 1.5, actually. The angles aren't good, either. I also would not advise overpaying for VVS1 clarity when VS1-VS2 is very clean.

I'd recommend returning it because I can guarantee we can help you find a better stone, probably for a lower price.
 

HDrider

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
5
Unfortunately i can not, i bought it through my friends dad who distributes diamonds. His regular business is selling small stones, like the ones you use for pave work or accents on the bands. He found this stone from another distributer and i kind of trusted his judgement on it. He is very a very honest and nice guy so perhaps he just isn't as familiar with bigger stones? but anyway, since he doesn't regularly deal with bigger stones he would be stuck with it for a bit and i couldn't do that to him after the help he's provided me with the diamond and the setting.

So a 5.6 is pretty bad then?

i wish i never discovered the HCA. i would have been obliviously happy!
 

acaw2015

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
763
Edited: I wrote a post but edited it since I felt it was a little harsh toward your friends dad. I'm sorry for your situation. Do you like the diamond? Seeing you cant return it I guess you will have to live with it. I hope you didnt over pay for it.
 

solgen

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 10, 2015
Messages
563
Sounds like your only option now is to recut the diamond and see how much weight you lose.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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55,629
HDrider|1455132271|3989424 said:
Unfortunately i can not, i bought it through my friends dad who distributes diamonds. His regular business is selling small stones, like the ones you use for pave work or accents on the bands. He found this stone from another distributer and i kind of trusted his judgement on it. He is very a very honest and nice guy so perhaps he just isn't as familiar with bigger stones? but anyway, since he doesn't regularly deal with bigger stones he would be stuck with it for a bit and i couldn't do that to him after the help he's provided me with the diamond and the setting.

So a 5.6 is pretty bad then?

i wish i never discovered the HCA. i would have been obliviously happy!
I wish you had come here first. You wouldn't believe how often the family friend or friend-of-friend jeweler deal turns out badly for the buyer. He may be nice but I am not sure about him having your best interests at heart. Do you want to tell us how much you paid for the diamond?

Be assured that the diamond is okay. It's just when spending thousands of dollars, you may as well go for the better GIA Excellent cut since that is a very broad range.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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HDrider|1455132271|3989424 said:
He is very a very honest and nice guy so perhaps he just isn't as familiar with bigger stones? !
This may or not be the case. I talked to local distributors and jewellers and it is surprising to find out that not all of them are familiar with ideal angles and HCA. For some of them giaxxx means a quality diamond.
Anyhow, if you cannot return, keep the stone for now and consider recutting the stone.

Its got clarity and enough carat weight and depth.
I have never recut a diamond and am no expert.
But simply looking at the proportions, it looks like most of cutting is to be done on the lower half to give a slightly shallow pavilion angle.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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Hi Hdrider,
Welcome to PS.
It's important to remember that the manner in which diamonds are analyzed here is aimed specifically towards those who are buying a diamond online. Therefore, what works here may not necessarily apply to those buying a diamond in person.
For sure everything is written with the best of intentions- but it might be easy to assume the person who sold you this diamond was "trying to pull something" based on the additional date- and that's really not a fair assessment. People in the "real world" who are not attuned to internet diamond shopping may have never heard of the HCA. It's entirely possible ( likely) the stone you have is gorgeous in person.

The reason GIA graded the diamond EX, yet it seems to get knocked here is that GIA's grade encompasses a wider range of appearances than what is considered "Super Ideal"
But since you're looking n person, your eyes will tell you a lot more than anyone else can who is not looking at the actual diamond.
In terms of mm spread, the stats you posted indicate a stone with average spread for the weight. It does not look smaller than the average 1.60, nor does it look larger.
It would not make a lot of sense to recut such a diamond unless you've seen "Super Ideal" stones and find you love the look more- but that's not automatic.

I just hate to see someone purchase a stone they love, and then loose that feeling for reasons that are not applicable to their own specific case.
 

mns12

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
325
Hi!
Congrats on your upcoming engagement! I just wanted to say that just since the diamond scored a 5.6 doesn't necessarily mean your girlfriend will not love it and it's not a pretty diamond! I found out a couple of years ago my original diamond scored over a 4 or something on the HCA. I was over the moon with my engagement ring (pretty sure it was a 60/60 stone) and I have to say I always received such lovely compliments on what a beautiful ring it was and how sparkly it was. It wasn't until the head broke off 10 years later and I needed to re-set that I found Pricescope and became obsessed with all the details. Unfortunately that ring was lost, I had the opportunity to upgrade, and I certainly took advantage of all the knowledge that I had gained being on PS for the last couple of years. However, had that not happened I surely would still be proud to wear my original diamond. Does your girlfriend know a lot about diamonds, cut, HCA, etc? If not, I would not be so worried.I know most men (or least 95% of the ones I know) do not educate themselves on diamonds.They rely on the B&M sales people to point them in the right direction. Unfortunately, they are not always looking out for YOUR best interest. Whereas I feel confident that the experts here on PS do! I do hope that you paid a fair price for what you got. Best of luck!
 

mns12

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
325
Rockdiamond|1455134785|3989453 said:
Hi Hdrider,
Welcome to PS.
It's important to remember that the manner in which diamonds are analyzed here is aimed specifically towards those who are buying a diamond online. Therefore, what works here may not necessarily apply to those buying a diamond in person.
For sure everything is written with the best of intentions- but it might be easy to assume the person who sold you this diamond was "trying to pull something" based on the additional date- and that's really not a fair assessment. People in the "real world" who are not attuned to internet diamond shopping may have never heard of the HCA. It's entirely possible ( likely) the stone you have is gorgeous in person.

The reason GIA graded the diamond EX, yet it seems to get knocked here is that GIA's grade encompasses a wider range of appearances than what is considered "Super Ideal"
But since you're looking n person, your eyes will tell you a lot more than anyone else can who is not looking at the actual diamond.
In terms of mm spread, the stats you posted indicate a stone with average spread for the weight. It does not look smaller than the average 1.60, nor does it look larger.
It would not make a lot of sense to recut such a diamond unless you've seen "Super Ideal" stones and find you love the look more- but that's not automatic.

I just hate to see someone purchase a stone they love, and then loose that feeling for reasons that are not applicable to their own specific case.[/quote]

I saw this after I wrote my post but totally agree!
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,629
The problem with his scenario is that he didn't have the chance to compare 3-4 ex cut stones with some in the ideal cut range. A "good" cut diamond is going to look pretty to most people who haven't seen very well cut diamonds. I know since I had one for a long time!

I agree that it is a little too much trouble for him to consider recutting. She will never know the difference unless she comes across this site. Never mention this to her. I just hope you got a great deal.
 

bqd251

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 31, 2002
Messages
10
Given the specs of your diamond I would expect you to notice leakage under the table. If compared to an ideal proportion diamond this should be quite evident. On it's own you may never really notice it.


While I can't run the numbers right now it, you might be able to get away with recutting the pav only. The crown is ideal so that's the good news. You shouldn't really lose face up size and you'll improve the light performance. Given the specs I'd estimate it cost over $10k unless you got a deal so spending $1k to recut it to better proportions is worthwhile IMO.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,629
bqd251|1455136206|3989462 said:
Given the specs of your diamond I would expect you to notice leakage under the table. If compared to an ideal proportion diamond this should be quite evident. On it's own you may never really notice it.


While I can't run the numbers right now it, you might be able to get away with recutting the pav only. The crown is ideal so that's the good news. You shouldn't really lose face up size and you'll improve the light performance. Given the specs I'd estimate it cost over $10k unless you got a deal so spending $1k to recut it to better proportions is worthwhile IMO.
It wouldn't cost $1000 to recut. Probably between $600-750 (plus shipping). But the stone is already set, so it's probably too much trouble.
 

Veltiesmom

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Messages
165
Since you can't return it at this point, I wouldn't worry too much. i just looked at a GIA Ex Ex Ex that scored over 5 on the HCA and while there may have been things that a very discerning diamond consumer (i.e., a pricescoper :rodent: ) would have nitpicked, it was overall a very pretty stone. (And this was a 3+ carat diamond so the cut imperfections would have been even more noticeable to the eye.) I can absolutely guarantee that none of my non-PS friends would have looked at it and thought anything other than, "it's gorgeous!"

So yes, while if you had it to do over, you would do it differently, what's done is done and I wouldn't lose sleep over it. My guess is that it will still be very very pretty.

You can check out my thread on the 5+ HCA here https://www.pricescope.com/communit...these-rb-photos-high-hca-gia-ex-ex-ex.219550/
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,173
The odds of there being "noticeable" leakage which is a detraction to appearance in such a stone is far less than 1%
Finding GIA XXX stones that exhibit detrimental leakage would be a very difficult task

My job involves looking at Super Ideals, and "regular" GIA triple EX stones pretty much every day.
There's not a difference which is clear and repeatable. IN other words, the differences are subtle, and not every "super ideal" is prettier than every other "regular XXX". The recipient of this stone could easily pick the regular GIA EX over a super ideal, just based on slight differences in the appearance. It's not a given that every person will pick the Super Ideal- in fact it's a given that not everyone will.
Again, if someone is looking online, the type of advice which is applicable is totally different than someone who is purchasing first hand
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
55,629
BUT, the depth issue means that he is paying for a 1.6 when it faces up like a 1.5.

For random readers of the thread, there are reasons besides leakage that we look at the numbers. I'm certain there are degrees of leakage that we couldn't recognize. But I can usually tell which diamond is larger!

Price is a huge factor, too. If this stone was priced less than a 1.5, then it was still a good deal, potentially.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,173
solgen|1455133865|3989437 said:
Sounds like your only option now is to recut the diamond and see how much weight you lose.
+1

I'd get it recut.
I'd contact Brian Gavin at www.briangavindiamonds.com .

You'll lose weight but probably almost no, if any, diameter (face-up size).
I'm guessing this because of the crown angle is already a nice 34.5 but the pavilion angle is a too-wide 41.6 degrees.

The cosmetic surgery might cost you $400 or so, but you'll get a diamond that looks just as large and has superb light performance.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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I agree DS- spread is a very visible, and important aspect.
In this particular case, the spread of 7.45mm is about mid pack for dimensional size of 675 GIA graded XXX 1.60ct diamonds currently listed on the wholesale database.
The largest spread stones are 60/60 at about 7.65mm


But if we look at the AGSL 0 cut grade stones of 1.60ct on the market the average mm size for a 1.60ct is about 7.45mm
 

HDrider

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
5
Thank you all for the welcomes, congratulations, and the thought out replies!

Much more info then i could have hoped for. If only i utilized this site as a resource before hand!

I had never considered that the stone could be recut. But highly doubtful i will go down that path. I think (hope) i paid a fair price. I wasn't looking for a deal by going through my friends dad, but i was looking to get the best in my budget. so i guess my plan may have backfired.

I will say that i think the diamond is beautiful, but i think i was say the same of a much lower quality diamond. I did not compare it to anything else, and i really don't know anything about diamonds or jewelry beyond the "4c's".. which i thought was all there was to it!

My Girlfriend i do not think knows much about diamonds, but i think side by side she'd be able to pick out the one that sparkles more. I will certainly try to keep her off this site!

I think i will take the advice many of you have given and just not worry about the HCA. While i am disappointed it might not sparkle to is full potential, and that it will only appear like a 1.5ct when i paid for a 1.6ct... whats done is done, i think she'll be happy as i don't think she was expecting anything bigger then 1.3ct... i will just worry about her saying yes.
 

HDrider

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
5
kenny|1455142078|3989509 said:
solgen|1455133865|3989437 said:
Sounds like your only option now is to recut the diamond and see how much weight you lose.
+1

I'd get it recut.
I'd contact Brian Gavin at www.briangavindiamonds.com .

You'll lose weight but probably almost no, if any, diameter (face-up size).
I'm guessing this because of the crown angle is already a nice 34.5 but the pavilion angle is a too-wide 41.6 degrees.

The cosmetic surgery might cost you $400 or so, but you'll get a diamond that looks just as large and has superb light performance.
Thats actually pretty reasonable, how much weight do you think i'd loose? and about what does it cost to reset a diamond?


Rockdiamond|1455142113|3989510 said:
I agree DS- spread is a very visible, and important aspect.
In this particular case, the spread of 7.45mm is about mid pack for dimensional size of 675 GIA graded XXX 1.60ct diamonds currently listed on the wholesale database.
The largest spread stones are 60/60 at about 7.65mm


But if we look at the AGSL 0 cut grade stones of 1.60ct on the market the average mm size for a 1.60ct is about 7.45mm
so does that mean the 1.6ct stone i have should atleast appear bigger then some (most?) 1.5ct stones?

And thank you for your comments, i think they, along with MNS12's, have provided me the most comfort regarding the HCA score!
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
Rockdiamond said:
Hi Hdrider,
Welcome to PS.
It's important to remember that the manner in which diamonds are analyzed here is aimed specifically towards those who are buying a diamond online. Therefore, what works here may not necessarily apply to those buying a diamond in person.
For sure everything is written with the best of intentions- but it might be easy to assume the person who sold you this diamond was "trying to pull something" based on the additional date- and that's really not a fair assessment. People in the "real world" who are not attuned to internet diamond shopping may have never heard of the HCA. It's entirely possible ( likely) the stone you have is gorgeous in person.

The reason GIA graded the diamond EX, yet it seems to get knocked here is that GIA's grade encompasses a wider range of appearances than what is considered "Super Ideal"
But since you're looking n person, your eyes will tell you a lot more than anyone else can who is not looking at the actual diamond.
In terms of mm spread, the stats you posted indicate a stone with average spread for the weight. It does not look smaller than the average 1.60, nor does it look larger.
It would not make a lot of sense to recut such a diamond unless you've seen "Super Ideal" stones and find you love the look more- but that's not automatic.

I just hate to see someone purchase a stone they love, and then loose that feeling for reasons that are not applicable to their own specific case.
+1

Exactly what I think.

It's still A GIA triple Ex, White G colour and VVS1 clarity. All of them has their own values like Cut does.

Also comparing your stone price to a cheapest bluenile stone is also rubbish. Every website have thousands of diamonds listed some priced higher some priced lower. Comparing price to average or median price would make more sense. Not comparing to cheapest.

I'm sure you have a beautiful diamond and your partner loves it. That's all that matters.
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
However I agree with the idea of a recut. Thankful your stone is 1.60ct and an expert cutter will fine tune the pavillion and still keep it above 1.5 ct.

However it's not worth the money or effort if it dips below 1.5ct mark. Also 41.6 pavillion angle is the steeper end of steep pavilions. If that pavillion can be brought to anything under 41 degrees you should be good to go (compared to what you got) however staying above 1.5ct mark is important.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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you're totally welcome HD!

Gr8leo87 makes a great point- in terms of pricing, never use the lowest price you find for a given color/clarity/carat weight. Use the average price for comparison.
When you are comparing stones the MM size is a good number to keep in mind- as Diamondseeker pointed out, a difference in physical size is definitely visible. Your stone is about 7.45mm- do a seach and see what average 1.50ct stones spread.
Again, the average is more useful than the smallest or largest.

Differences in sparkle, or light performance are far more subjective. She may or may not be able to see such differences, and she might just choose the non ideal because some people just like the non ideal look better.


Recut- I'd be extremely surprised if a cutter able to get to the type of precision we're speaking of would touch a stone like yours for $400- but I'd be interested if someone has concrete info as opposed to guessing. I know we've paid a whole lot more than $400 to recut a stone to Super Ideal.

Please ignore the critical stuff, take the good stuff from here and ENJOY YOUR BEAUTIFUL DIAMOND!
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
28,173
HDrider|1455143586|3989522 said:
Thats actually pretty reasonable, how much weight do you think i'd loose?
If it keeps the same diameter I would not care.
Plus, a brighter diamond looks larger so this is a win win.

When it comes to this purchase I'd ignore the past and just look to the future.
You have this and can't return it.
Selling it would make thousands of dollars to POOF.
For a few hundred it will look/sparkle MUCH better.
That's what you said she wants.

Keeping her away from PS and ignorant of cut and learning about what she's wearing is naughty IMO. :whistle:

The recut is a no brainer IMO.
Turn lemon into Lemonade! :appl:
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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Actually a diamond with a larger ( ie 60%) table tends to look larger than one of the same diameter but a smaller table ( ie 57%).

It's kind of ironic how people who've never even seen the diamond are so quick to advise re-cutting.
Re-cutting will require a small amount of risk, not guarantee that you will end up with a diamond you love better, and based on my experience, cost a fair amount of money.
 

YadaYadaYada

Ideal_Rock
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Feb 2, 2016
Messages
5,921
In your post you said you tried your hardest, that's the most important thing right there. At the end of the day she will appreciate the effort you put in over anything else and it still sounds like she will have a nice looking stone.

There's a quote that goes something like "money mistakes can be corrected by time is gone forever". Not trying to get all Hallmark on you. My husband bought my original ring from Zales and we knew nothing about cut and proportions, I was thrilled with it because he worked so hard to make it happen financially. Enjoy your engagement, it will all work out.
 

gm89uk

Brilliant_Rock
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May 26, 2015
Messages
1,449
I think the weight loss would be minimal.

with your values the stone has roughly 4% girdle, 14.4% crown, and 44.4% pavilion with rounding (leading to 62.8 percent depth) which I work out to be at 1.599 carats

Should the crown and girdle stay exactly the same and the pavilion angle changed to 40.9, the new pavilion depth would be 43.3% leading to a total depth of 61.74% and therefore a depth of 4.60. This all accounts to a calculated carat of 1.578!

However obviously that is a completely ideal scenario, but I think staying above 1.50 carat is achievable. I think I recall Brian Gavin costs $300 per carat so recutting would roughly be $480.
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
Rockdiamond said:
Actually a diamond with a larger ( ie 60%) table tends to look larger than one of the same diameter but a smaller table ( ie 57%).

It's kind of ironic how people who've never even seen the diamond are so quick to advise re-cutting.
Re-cutting will require a small amount of risk, not guarantee that you will end up with a diamond you love better, and based on my experience, cost a fair amount of money.
Good point by RD.

Also leakage under the table and leakage in the crown are two different things. Leakage under the crown may make the diamond appear smaller. But not under the table leakage.

I don't think the OP's diamond would have leakage under the crown.

True on table sizes and their effect on apparent spread.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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HDrider|1455143029|3989515 said:
Thank you all for the welcomes, congratulations, and the thought out replies!

Much more info then i could have hoped for. If only i utilized this site as a resource before hand!

I had never considered that the stone could be recut. But highly doubtful i will go down that path. I think (hope) i paid a fair price. I wasn't looking for a deal by going through my friends dad, but i was looking to get the best in my budget. so i guess my plan may have backfired.

I will say that i think the diamond is beautiful, but i think i was say the same of a much lower quality diamond. I did not compare it to anything else, and i really don't know anything about diamonds or jewelry beyond the "4c's".. which i thought was all there was to it!

My Girlfriend i do not think knows much about diamonds, but i think side by side she'd be able to pick out the one that sparkles more. I will certainly try to keep her off this site!

I think i will take the advice many of you have given and just not worry about the HCA. While i am disappointed it might not sparkle to is full potential, and that it will only appear like a 1.5ct when i paid for a 1.6ct... whats done is done, i think she'll be happy as i don't think she was expecting anything bigger then 1.3ct... i will just worry about her saying yes.
Well, she will be very happy to get a 7.4 mm stone if she was expecting a 7 mm stone! That is a big difference visually. You said you think you paid a fair price...did you see the stone I posted for you to compare price? I am hoping the guy treated you fairly and gave you a good deal, but you need to know that for sure. The stone I posted above was about $16,500 credit card price and a little less for cash.
 
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