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Should i accept this stone?

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
32,947
May I have your advice?
Too good to be true!. A 2.11 ct F VVS stone for $15K?. Something just don't jive about this stone....:nono:
 

AllAboardTheBlingTrain

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
1,217
If OP lives in a small town, far from capital, getting a diamond graded is not as easy as us who lives in the States. First, how to get the diamond to the lab is a problem, in my home country for example, the employees of the delivery companies can’t be as trusted as us who lives in the States. Getting value-able things from one point to another is not an easy task. Second, insurance is not a thing in other countries. Especially jewelry insurance and getting a diamond insured just for grading, is definitely Not an option. Many still transport valuable goods by themselves, even it means driving for hours. So some part of the world still rely on in-person shopping, especially for diamond.

I hear you, but this is the vendor’s responsibility, not the OP’s. If the guy has the capability to call in this stone internationally he definitely has the capability to have it sent to get certified first. So why is he not doing it? If she offers to pay for the certification - heck, offer a premium to do so - and he doesn’t, why not?

I’m from India and I understand the concept of trusting a vendor; no one here will buy online either. I wouldn’t, because I can get the same kind of online prices through a vendor and the taxes would be murderous to order from overseas. I know a lot of people here too probably do buy uncerted stones based on a vendor’s word. But also, it is not hard for the vendor to arrange for certification no matter how small a town he is located in. It is a lot harder for a customer, no doubt.
 

KAA

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
7
This thread is giving me life! And making me feel like a fool but that's another matter! An update of sorts: I know a diamond proportions chart is not exclusive to GIA but the specific font and formatting of the pic i was provided look just like gia. Someone above mentioned sarine? I can't find an output from sarine or any other cert (ags, egl, igi, etc) where the diagram matches the gia one exactly. So I pressed for more info. I was told there is no report but that the seller's agent went to the "<country name> insurance jewelry appraisals" place (which I can't find online...) to get the measurements because I had asked for them. I was told that it is not gia but if I want a gia diamond, the price for the same-ish stone is about double.

Again he has offered to let me see and check the stone when it arrives. There is no obligation. But I am now fully suspicious that, as all have mentioned, the colour and clarity are probably way inflated and I am honestly concerned maybe this is a lab stone?

Now with all that being said, this guy has 20+ years of selling in our small community. Word would have gotten around if he was a fraudster. And my ring is chump change to him - he sells pieces 10 and 20x the value of my stone to sheikha and sheikhas. This is the reason I am still somewhat interested despite all the red flags. I fear if I press any further he will lose his patience with me. But 15K is also a lot of money for me and I need to do due diligence. I like the idea of offering to pay for gia cert ... will try that technique and report back!

In the meantime, those who have commented the cut isn't great and the facets are splintery - can you please elaborate? I know table size preference can be subjective, but is there anything specific to the shown dimensions that make this look like a poor cut? I put the specs in the gia facetware app and it liked them
 

AllAboardTheBlingTrain

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
1,217
This thread is giving me life! And making me feel like a fool but that's another matter! An update of sorts: I know a diamond proportions chart is not exclusive to GIA but the specific font and formatting of the pic i was provided look just like gia. Someone above mentioned sarine? I can't find an output from sarine or any other cert (ags, egl, igi, etc) where the diagram matches the gia one exactly. So I pressed for more info. I was told there is no report but that the seller's agent went to the "<country name> insurance jewelry appraisals" place (which I can't find online...) to get the measurements because I had asked for them. I was told that it is not gia but if I want a gia diamond, the price for the same-ish stone is about double.

Again he has offered to let me see and check the stone when it arrives. There is no obligation. But I am now fully suspicious that, as all have mentioned, the colour and clarity are probably way inflated and I am honestly concerned maybe this is a lab stone?

Now with all that being said, this guy has 20+ years of selling in our small community. Word would have gotten around if he was a fraudster. And my ring is chump change to him - he sells pieces 10 and 20x the value of my stone to sheikha and sheikhas. This is the reason I am still somewhat interested despite all the red flags. I fear if I press any further he will lose his patience with me. But 15K is also a lot of money for me and I need to do due diligence. I like the idea of offering to pay for gia cert ... will try that technique and report back!

In the meantime, those who have commented the cut isn't great and the facets are splintery - can you please elaborate? I know table size preference can be subjective, but is there anything specific to the shown dimensions that make this look like a poor cut? I put the specs in the gia facetware app and it liked them

Firstly, you’re not a fool, you’re very intelligent for coming here and checking and making sure this guy’s story checks out amongst a bunch of strangers who don’t know his reputation. Much better to cross your Ts and dot your Is.

I just want to comment on the bit that I bolded: if your jeweler truly believes that this stone with a GIA cert would sell for $30k as opposed to $15k, why on earth would he leave that extra $15k on the table? Something is definitely not right. $30k would be much more in line what I would expect for F VVS 2ct. I agree the proportions picture you posted also looks exactly like a GIA report. I wonder if the stone does actually have a GIA report that is not being disclosed because it’s actually a K SI2 or something. Or, god forbid, treated in some way. Or if the proportions are not actually for this stone..

Tbh I don’t understand the buying culture where you are entirely so maybe I am being overly suspicious. I will say that for example in India prices in stores/through dealers for certed stones are definitely lower, but they’re more in line with the prices you’d get for certed stones online. It’s not like there aren’t well known dealers selling uncerted stones here too, I know of some and they also manage to offer “excellent deals” (though not this much lower as compared to online comps). But I also don’t know a single person who has bought through them and has then tried to sell the stones or get them certed post fact. It’s entirely possible that your guy does sell natural stones but just much lower colour and clarity than what he claims, or sells lab stones, or (and this is really a vanishingly small chance in my opinion) sells stones that live up to the grading he gives them, and no one knows the truth because no one has actually been in a position to challenge his claims. Also maybe he is selling a mix of certed and uncerted stones, and you never know which stone is a bad apple in the bunch. I mean even if we take him at his word you’re also taking his suppliers at their word and there’s no oversight from an independent party here.

It would be interesting to see what he says about getting it certed on your dime! Best of luck. The ideal situation would be if it comes back natural and F/VVS (or more plausible would be G/H VS) - 15k would still be a fair price for the latter and you’d have peace of mind too!
 

munchee

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 12, 2011
Messages
535
If GIA stone will cost double, why don’t he, send that stone to GIA and get it certified? It only cost couple hundred dollars to get GIA certificate, with certifying it, he will make more money, why don’t he do it? If it is what he say it is?
 

caf

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
1,461
He’ll lose patience with you? Fine! This is not a purchase to be rushed through!

He has the market “sewn” up in your community. Please don’t spend your hard earned $$$ on this unknown diamond without a report and confirming that the diamond in a report is the diamond you are buying!
 

Mrs_Strizzle

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 14, 2018
Messages
997
OP, I'll just add that though this vendor may be selling much more expensive gems/jewelry to others in your community that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't getting duped too or couldn't find better. I can think of a thread where someone posted diamond specs and was told here they weren't good but she proceeded with the purchase because of the high end brand. She paid more than I paid for my 5 bedroom house. Literally.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
12,790
Please don't buy this, OP. There are sooooo many obvious red flags. And even IF the stone is what the vendor claims (which clearly it probably isnt) the cut isnt great. Table size larger than depth means it will have a "flat top" look, which most people dont like.

You can find something so so so much better from one of the trusted vendors here.
 

AllAboardTheBlingTrain

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
1,217
Please don't buy this, OP. There are sooooo many obvious red flags. And even IF the stone is what the vendor claims (which clearly it probably isnt) the cut isnt great. Table size larger than depth means it will have a "flat top" look, which most people dont like.

You can find something so so so much better from one of the trusted vendors here.

Only issue with buying from an online vendor might be the taxes. I don’t know what the taxes are like in OP’s country, but where my parents live for example they would be prohibitively expensive and just a pain to deal with.

If that is the case OP and you feel like you don’t have other options then at least only purchase a GIA certed stone from the jeweler (or a different jeweler), with the inscription of the report number on the girdle of the stone, AND verify the inscription number with your own eyes before you take it from the jeweler (using a loupe or microscope). That way at least you know that the quality is not overstated. You can use stonealgo or the PS diamond search for price comparisons, and the HCA tool and diamondscreener’s cut estimator to at least get an idea of the cut (latter two only valid for MRBs).
 

AnastasiaBeaverhausen

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 11, 2013
Messages
1,386
@KAA It's entirely possibly for a vendor to sell "the good stuff" to some customers, then try to take advantage of other customers if they think they can get away with it. Plus, when someone has an established following in the community, it's hard for naysayers to be heard. It happens here on PS too. One person may try to share their negative experience and a whole bunch of people will jump in and defend the vendor. So even though you haven't heard of any negative feedback about this guy, doesn't mean it hasn't happened :(
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
32,947
I was told that it is not gia but if I want a gia diamond, the price for the same-ish stone is about double.
Shouldn't that tell you something about this stone?. B/C You ain't gonna get a true 2.11ct F VVS stone for $15K.
 

Ceilimom

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
363
@KAA It's entirely possibly for a vendor to sell "the good stuff" to some customers, then try to take advantage of other customers if they think they can get away with it. Plus, when someone has an established following in the community, it's hard for naysayers to be heard. It happens here on PS too. One person may try to share their negative experience and a whole bunch of people will jump in and defend the vendor. So even though you haven't heard of any negative feedback about this guy, doesn't mean it hasn't happened :(

Completely agree, I fell for the jeweler that everyone knew in my area. They advertised heavily so their name was well known- I didn't read the reviews and I should have. Some people were treated well, their custom work was problematic and customer service was non existent. If you are unable to have a reputable certificate, no matter how great the deal is walk away, $15,000. is a lot of money.
 

WillyDiamond

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
1,358
OP, there is an expression, “you get what you pay for”
There are no deals in diamonds.
Jewelers know what they are doing.
 

Ionysis

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Oct 1, 2015
Messages
665
I also live in small(ish) town in a Middle Eastern country but there is IGI and IDL down the road in Dubai who are ok at a pinch. Send it there.
 

KAA

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
7
Thank you all again for your insightful responses. The seller insists the diagram is from a sarine output and not from an existing gia analysis. He also says I can confirm it is genuine and not lab grown by using the little black tester all stores have - is that true? I thought a lab grown stone is genuinely carbon so it tests as a diamond but has basically zero resale value.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
12,790
Thank you all again for your insightful responses. The seller insists the diagram is from a sarine output and not from an existing gia analysis. He also says I can confirm it is genuine and not lab grown by using the little black tester all stores have - is that true? I thought a lab grown stone is genuinely carbon so it tests as a diamond but has basically zero resale value.

No, lab diamonds are chemically identical to natural diamonds. But the value is much lower.

I don't doubt that the stone is diamond. I doubt that its the color and clarity the vendor claims, and the cut is bad.
 

AllAboardTheBlingTrain

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
1,217
Thank you all again for your insightful responses. The seller insists the diagram is from a sarine output and not from an existing gia analysis. He also says I can confirm it is genuine and not lab grown by using the little black tester all stores have - is that true? I thought a lab grown stone is genuinely carbon so it tests as a diamond but has basically zero resale value.

I’m fairly sure as well that identifying a lab diamond requires specialised equipment and not Store testers.
 

RockFox

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 13, 2020
Messages
171
Thank you all again for your insightful responses. The seller insists the diagram is from a sarine output and not from an existing gia analysis. He also says I can confirm it is genuine and not lab grown by using the little black tester all stores have - is that true? I thought a lab grown stone is genuinely carbon so it tests as a diamond but has basically zero resale value.

Hi @KAA

I own both lab and mined stones and I can confirm no hand held tester (that I know of) including the high end Presidium ones can tell the difference between them. When I have gone to verify my diamonds at labs in London they have a special piece of synthetic diamond screening equipment - it looks a little like a small black photo box. The lab diamonds come up red in it.
 

AnastasiaBeaverhausen

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 11, 2013
Messages
1,386
@KAA It is very concerning to me that this "highly respected" jeweler doesn't know that hand held testers cannot tell the difference between lab and mined. Heck, they can't tell the difference between diamond and moissanite most of the time! Makes me think he DOES know this but thinks you are a fool...

[email protected], I think your jeweler just tipped his hand and showed he's a lying lie face.
 

KAA

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
7
I think he's not used to people pushing back on him. He gains clients through word of mouth and there are a lot of, not to be offensive in any way, folks who just default to being Homer Simpson when they are shown a diamond, "Ooooh, sparkly!". Which I guess is precisely how he pegged me as well? He seemed shocked that I asked for the diamond dimensions and even more surprised when I continued to challenge him about a certification for this stone. So as not to offend him, I questioned not whether he was trustworthy, but whether the person selling the stone to HIS dealer (my guy is basically middle man #2 in this transaction), had actually just given a sarine output from some random stone OR was trying to pass this off as a natural (from the earth diamond) when maybe it was actually lab grown. That's when he claimed I can check that on the little tester, which I knew was not the case.

So as not to draw this out any further, I will still take a look at the stone when it arrives. What I'm looking for....I don't know? The stone is in transit so no chance to send it for certification before arriving, but I will see if I can get from him a deal that if I send it for GIA or equivalent and it comes back with something unfavourable, he'll take it back. If he doesn't accept this, I think I'll take all the great advice here and walk away.
 

KAA

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
7
No, lab diamonds are chemically identical to natural diamonds. But the value is much lower.

I don't doubt that the stone is diamond. I doubt that its the color and clarity the vendor claims, and the cut is bad.

Strictly for my own education, please, what makes the cut bad? I've gone down the rabbit hole about 60/60 diamonds (which this is close to?) still being nice, and having great spread and brilliance, but not as much fire and scintillation. Is there something in the dimensions that cause a red flag for this to be considered a bad cut (other than the table being bigger than ideal)?
 

magpie2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
17
The cut checks out as excellent on GIA Facetware. The table size and lower crown height are not 'super - ideal' and not everyone's favourite look on PS. However, that doesn't make it bad.
It's the behaviour of the vendor that's spooking commentators rather than the stone itself, if indeed it is the diamond in the diagram you posted. Incidentally, since there is clearly some concern as to whether or not the stone is natural or lab grown, Ionysis mentioned above that IGI are in Dubai and they are well known for grading lab grown diamonds. They'd be able to put your mind to rest in that regard at least if you could get stone to them.
 
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