sending GIA graded stones to AGSL

[proto]

Is this ever worth it?

Thinking of a scenario where you have a GIA excellent cut stone, but you think it may be AGSL 0 or 1 for light performance.

In my mind, getting the AGSL grade would make it a more attractive diamond, however you would have to pay for the shipping/insurance/grading etc.

Anyone have any experience with this, or any vendors?

Does the fact that the diamond did not go to AGSL from the cutter indicate that it was not worth it to do so in the first place?

It just seems to me that the superideal cut stones all come with AGSL rather than GIA certificates.

Are you able to choose after obtaining the report whether you want the diamond laser inscribed? Lets say its GIA excellent for cut, but comes back AGSL 4 for cut, and now you dont want the diamond inscribed, or you would rather just throw the report away, is this an option?

 

[RT82]

If its free and you are just that curious, sure. Otherwise I can't envision a scenario where you would need that validation and it would be worth the money.

Once you buy (based on specs, cert. grading etc) and can confirm its beauty in person, why take the chance that someone else is going to put it down for lack of a better phrase? It just going to make you feel bad about your purchase.

 

[Lorelei]

Proto, are you asking this out of interest or is this something you are considering doing?

 

[OoohShiny]

I was actually thinking about the reverse - getting an AGS stone (superideal) and sending it to GIA simply because GIA seems to be more of an 'international passport' whereas AGS is not so recognised here in Europe!

That said, if it's an ERing that is never going to be sold (hopefully... ) then there's not really much point

 

[proto]

just out of interest

wondered why all the superideals were AGS and if its because the ones which are GIA meant that they were sent there because they knew it would not get AGS 0 for light performance.

 

[JulieN]

AGS is not some infallible lab that can do no wrong. The AGS cut grade system is not perfect, and they are a bit soft on color.

 

[luvdajules]

newb throwing out a possible reason Superideals are sent to AGS: given consumers pay a premium for superideals, consumers want light performance grading information from a respected lab, backed up by and aset or ideal scope image, of course. If you have a GIA XXX and an aset that looks like an AGS0 ideal light return, then I wouldn't necessarily pay for the extra AGS grading, assuming I don't plan to sell it ever. I think it's in other threads that if the cutter thought they cut an AGS0 it would likely go to AGS from the get go. It stands to reason since AGS0 stones command more or is my thinking cyclical and I've drunk too much PS kool-aid, lol.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

just out of interest

wondered why all the superideals were AGS and if its because the ones which are GIA meant that they were sent there because they knew it would not get AGS 0 for light performance.

No, the vast majority of stones go to GIA because it is the most respected lab worldwide. The H&A dealers like to get the ideal grade on light performance so they send stones there. Often they are branded stones and that is just where they send their H&A stones. There are probably a LOT more GIA Ex stones that would get the 0 in light performance, but they aren't necessarily hearts and arrows or branded diamonds. Some places are not all that familiar with AGS grading while GIA is known worldwide. You will pay a premium for a top cut quality stone regardless of the lab.

I would say that there is zero reason to get an AGS report for a stone you are buying to keep. I did get one when I was about to SELL a diamond because I knew that the stone was a high H from my vendor (and it was a top of the line H&A stone graded by GIA, because that is the lab that cutter preferred). I did get G color on that stone through AGS which paid off when I sold it. So like I said, there's no reason to do so unless you are selling. It definitely isn't free.

 

[RT82]

Diamondseeker brings up a point I've been wondering about for a while.

I feel that there is a general assumption that cutters who think they have an ideal cut will specifically send that stone to AGS, over say GIA. Wouldn't it be more likely that cutters just send all their stones to one lab they are familiar with?

Any cutters around? Do you aim certain stones towards certain labs?

 

[JulieN]

They send their stones to the lab that they think will help them sell it fastest at the best price. Outside of PS, GIA is what people know.

 

[Cricketcat]

When I purchased my GIA XXX diamond, my knowledge of diamonds was very limited. I knew I wanted "ideal or excellent" cut, but that was the extent of that (prior to my knowledge of Pricescope). I read up on the basics of diamonds on the internet searches and determined that a GIA graded stone is what I wanted. A couple months after purchasing my diamond, I found Pricescope and learned about super ideal diamonds and hearts and arrows diamonds. I noticed some vendors of hearts and arrows and super ideals sent their diamonds to only AGS for grading. At that point, I thought I had made a mistake with my GIA XXX purchase even though the diamond had out of this world performance and was cut to super ideal proportions, so I decided I would purchase an AGS hearts and arrows diamond from a Pricescope vendor. I was so excited about receiving my AGS graded hearts and arrows diamond, only to be disappointed when I compared it to my GIA XXX. I sent the AGS diamond back. I have come to the conclusion that you can have a great diamond with either AGS or GIA grading, and that every diamond really needs to be looked at and evaluated individually.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Is this ever worth it?

Thinking of a scenario where you have a GIA excellent cut stone, but you think it may be AGSL 0 or 1 for light performance.

In my mind, getting the AGSL grade would make it a more attractive diamond, however you would have to pay for the shipping/insurance/grading etc.

Anyone have any experience with this, or any vendors?

Does the fact that the diamond did not go to AGSL from the cutter indicate that it was not worth it to do so in the first place?

It just seems to me that the superideal cut stones all come with AGSL rather than GIA certificates.

Are you able to choose after obtaining the report whether you want the diamond laser inscribed? Lets say its GIA excellent for cut, but comes back AGSL 4 for cut, and now you dont want the diamond inscribed, or you would rather just throw the report away, is this an option?

If you have both a GIA report and an AGSL light performance report you have the best of both worlds, especially if it does have ideal light performance. GIA is more universally known, and AGS is recognized as the leader in cut quality analysis. It is widely known that the GIA Excellent cut grade is quite broad and therefore many buyers want to know "how excellent is it - AGS cut analysis will answer that question.

You can specify with AGSL whether to inscribe the stone and make that decision after getting the grading results. If the stone already has a GIA cert there would be no compelling reason to put an AGSL inscription on it. You will need to work with a client of the AGSL to access their services- you can call AGSL directly and they will answer all your technical questions. Pricing you will discuss with the jeweler you work through).

One way to go if you already have a GIA report is to request an AGSL cut-grade only report. You submit the stone with the GIA paper and they do the LP analysis and reference the GIA report on the AGSL cut report.

The fact that a stone goes to GIA rather than to AGSL does not necessarily mean that the cut grade will not get high marks under the AGS system. Many dealers cater to markets that are not familiar with AGS. Having said that, most diamonds are cut to the outying perimeters of the GIA EX grade in order to retain as much weight as possible and still get the top grade from that lab. AGS 0 is a narrower subset that normally entails more weight loss in the cutting process. That is one reason that diamonds with AGS 0 certs trade for a premium over GIA Ex.

 

[RT82]

When I purchased my GIA XXX diamond, my knowledge of diamonds was very limited. I knew I wanted "ideal or excellent" cut, but that was the extent of that (prior to my knowledge of Pricescope). I read up on the basics of diamonds on the internet searches and determined that a GIA graded stone is what I wanted. A couple months after purchasing my diamond, I found Pricescope and learned about super ideal diamonds and hearts and arrows diamonds. I noticed some vendors of hearts and arrows and super ideals sent their diamonds to only AGS for grading. At that point, I thought I had made a mistake with my GIA XXX purchase even though the diamond had out of this world performance and was cut to super ideal proportions, so I decided I would purchase an AGS hearts and arrows diamond from a Pricescope vendor. I was so excited about receiving my AGS graded hearts and arrows diamond, only to be disappointed when I compared it to my GIA XXX. I sent the AGS diamond back. I have come to the conclusion that you can have a great diamond with either AGS or GIA grading, and that every diamond really needs to be looked at and evaluated individually.

Totally agree, and this reminds me of another point I've been thinking about the plast few weeks: If there was one negative about PS (not that its a real negative, I love this place!), is that ppl here especially newbies like myself can just get flat out hung up on the tiniest of specs, proportions, HCA etc. and they forget they will not percieve most of those details. I'm guilty.

The most important part of the purchase imo is looking at the stone! I didn't buy online, but even I had to keep reminding myself when looking at stones side by side to not obsesses over the cert specs and just go with feeling in the end.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I would have no problem buying either lab if I have all the information about the stone.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

When I purchased my GIA XXX diamond, my knowledge of diamonds was very limited. I knew I wanted "ideal or excellent" cut, but that was the extent of that (prior to my knowledge of Pricescope). I read up on the basics of diamonds on the internet searches and determined that a GIA graded stone is what I wanted. A couple months after purchasing my diamond, I found Pricescope and learned about super ideal diamonds and hearts and arrows diamonds. I noticed some vendors of hearts and arrows and super ideals sent their diamonds to only AGS for grading. At that point, I thought I had made a mistake with my GIA XXX purchase even though the diamond had out of this world performance and was cut to super ideal proportions, so I decided I would purchase an AGS hearts and arrows diamond from a Pricescope vendor. I was so excited about receiving my AGS graded hearts and arrows diamond, only to be disappointed when I compared it to my GIA XXX. I sent the AGS diamond back. I have come to the conclusion that you can have a great diamond with either AGS or GIA grading, and that every diamond really needs to be looked at and evaluated individually.

Totally agree, and this reminds me of another point I've been thinking about the plast few weeks: If there was one negative about PS (not that its a real negative, I love this place!), is that ppl here especially newbies like myself can just get flat out hung up on the tiniest of specs, proportions, HCA etc. and they forget they will not percieve most of those details. I'm guilty.

The most important part of the purchase imo is looking at the stone! I didn't buy online, but even I had to keep reminding myself when looking at stones side by side to not obsesses over the cert specs and just go with feeling in the end.

I agree with these general sentiments but I would put it differently. Cut quality is clearly the most important aspect of diamond beauty, even GIA says that on their site. (It is therefore puzzling that they only offer a cut grade on round- but that's another story). While cut quality and light performance are critical to diamond beauty and should be given alot of weight in buying decisions, there are other factors in the matrix. Trade offs are the rule rather than the exception in diamond buying. But the more you learn about the importance of cut quality, the less likely you are to make compromises there.

In terms of tradeoffs, a super ideal cut will not ensure top light performance if clarity features cause too much interference. Even in the same clarity grade, some features will and some will not inhibit light performance. Particularly in Si2 and some Si1 grades, this is something to be on the lookout for.

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

I certainly understand what is being said here, in the sense that AGSL might seem an 'easier' alternative for someone desiring quality cut. That’s where participation on Pricescope can make a difference. GIA grades some of the most well-cut diamonds in the world. They grade nearly 100X that of AGSL, including many that would max out both AGS0 and demanding H&A metrics. Bluntly put, it’s the preferred laboratory for the planet.

I ‘get’ the safer-bet and appropriateness of AGS0 for a blind-buy market. I respect and study the AGS cut requirements. As an example, were I sent to GITMO and water-boarded until I picked a well-cut diamond sight unseen with no Idealscope or ASET and no assistance from specialists then, in terms of cut-quality, yeah AGS0 is the obvious safe play.

But here we are. Pricescope. No forcing, no need to sacrifice and military tribunals. In this place one can put-forward any diamond that has enough data plus a scientific image or two, and the community will provide great input about its cut merits, or shortcomings so no matter where in the world you are buying (or re-selling) from or to, you can be assured that you are well-informed with any decision you make after running past the incredible folks here at PS.

 

[Lorelei]

This is a really useful and educational thread which I know we can refer to often to help others, a really good job to all who participated and thanks to Bryan and Diamond_Hawk for their valued input! Thanks also to Proto for starting this thread, it was an excellent topic!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

A couple of follow up comments in response to assertions made in the thread:
1) An AGS cert is indeed preferred by a great number of people. Particularly those interested in diamonds of the finest cut quality. Quantity does not equal quality. The local McDonalds sells 100x more meals than the local steakhouse. That does not mean that McDonalds is "preferred" in a qulaitative sense.

2) Color and clarity calls are made by human graders. Combining the fact that each of these grades represents a small range on a continuum with the fact that these are human judgements, there is a known and accepted +-1 color grade variance between the top labs.
Although there are plenty of cases where variance is seen, there is no evidence that AGS is softer on color.

Furthermore, not only do GIA and AGS share a common heritage and mission, procedures and practices in both labs are very similar. The color master sets used by AGSL are also graded by GIA to ensure the closest synchronization possible.
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/ags-laboratory-color-grading-diamonds

 

[KenD]

I'd like more information about the different AGS grading reports, since AGS grading reports are not all the same.

I am impressed by diamonds AGS Platinum grading reports with grades of "AGS Ideal 0" for cut and light performance. How should we view stones that have a non-Platinum grading report of Cut Grade: AGS Ideal 0? What should we assume about the light performance, in these cases? How much better is a diamond with a AGS Platinum Cut Grade of AGS Ideal 0 and Light Performance of AGS Ideal 0 than a diamond that has just a non-Platinum Cut Grade of AGS Ideal 0? Is there any implication to be drawn about grade given to a diamond, based on the different AGS reports requested by the owner?

Is a non-Platinum AGS Cut grade of AGS Ideal 0 the same as a Platinum AGS Cut grade of AGS Ideal 0? I ask because, I am guessing, that one cut grade takes into consideration light performance, and the other does not, to the same degree. (I assume one grading is based on projected light performance, plus visual inspection vs. actual light performance by computer.)

I realize that an Ideal Scope or ASET image is generally desired for any diamond being considered.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I'd like more information about the different AGS grading reports, since AGS grading reports are not all the same.

I am impressed by diamonds AGS Platinum grading reports with grades of "AGS Ideal 0" for cut and light performance. How should we view stones that have a non-Platinum grading report of Cut Grade: AGS Ideal 0? What should we assume about the light performance, in these cases? How much better is a diamond with a AGS Platinum Cut Grade of AGS Ideal 0 and Light Performance of AGS Ideal 0 than a diamond that has just a non-Platinum Cut Grade of AGS Ideal 0? Is there any implication to be drawn about grade given to a diamond, based on the different AGS reports requested by the owner?

Is a non-Platinum AGS Cut grade of AGS Ideal 0 the same as a Platinum AGS Cut grade of AGS Ideal 0? I ask because, I am guessing, that one cut grade takes into consideration light performance, and the other does not, to the same degree. (I assume one grading is based on projected light performance, plus visual inspection vs. actual light performance by computer.)

I realize that an Ideal Scope or ASET image is generally desired for any diamond being considered.

These are all great questions. AGS will be the first to admit that over time they have created a daunting array of reports. There are resources and threads searchable here on pricescope to answer questions about specific reports. You can also call AGSL and they will walk you through the differences.

The main thing to understand is that the newer reports offer the AGS light performance grading. Older reports are proportion based and do not feature the same level of scientific sophistication in the cut analysis. The LP based reports take into account the contribution of every facet on the diamond, analyzed by the AGS ray tracing program that mathmatically calculates the behavior of 40,000 light rays.

You can sometimes draw certain conclusions about technical performance by the type of report requested by the seller. For instance, a new report on a proportion based document with an AGS0 grade might imply that for some reason it will not score zero on the much more exacting LP system. Having said that, before the LP system was born, a proportion based AGS Ideal was still considered the gold standard in terms of cut quality.

The ultimate pedigree for a round is now the Platinum dual light map report that graphically shows aspects of how the diamond is handling light as well as craftsmanship and facet patterning. These are computer generated maps that see what the ray tracing software sees.

 

[TC1987]

As far as I know, any stone sent to AGSL must be sent by a jeweler, cutter, or "other" professional who is a member of AGS. GIA and EGL will deal directly with the consumer. That is another reason why you see a lot of GIA and EGL reports. Any person or any jeweler can send his/her stone to GIA and EGL. But you must go through a AGS jeweler to get a stone graded by AGSL. In some areas, like small towns, it might be difficult to find a conveniently located AGS jeweler.

 

[MollyMalone]

TC1987 is right, consumers cannot submit stones to AGSL. But a jeweler just needs to have a credit account established with them, does not have to be a member of AGS.

FAQ #3 on the AGSL web site:
https://www.agslab.com/faqs.php
3. How can I get a diamond graded by the AGS Laboratories?
If your business is in the jewelry trade, we’ll be happy to set up an account. Please see Become a Client or call Client Service. If you’re not in the jewelry trade, please visit an American Gem Society retail jeweler in your area. An AGS retail jeweler may be able to submit the diamond to the AGS Laboratories for you.
You can find a Jeweler on the American Gem Society website.