Scam or not? Need opinions please

[tnd]

I posted about a diamond that I bought earlier and I am not sure if I am going to keep it so I have continued my search.

Well I went into a local jewelers a few years back and I just had a weird feeling about that place. So I went in there last week to look for a diamond, because it is close to my house. The owner showed me alot of stones that he said had "ideal" cuts by GIA standards. He even showed my some diamonds that were not certified that he said were "ideal" cuts based on a Sarin report. He owns the Sarin machine. Anyway, I was asking him about some diamonds that I has already seen and I said something about an SI3 diamond. This jeweler said there is NO such thing as an SI3, and I felt like an idiot. I told him that I have been doing alot of research on the internet and trying to learn about diamonds, and he basically said that you can''t believe what comes off of the internet.

Fast forward to last night, I went back because his wholesaler was going to be there with a larger selection of diamonds. When I was waiting to see the diamonds I looked in his case and saw a few diamond with an SI3 clarity, so I asked him about it and he said well those are EGL graded, blah blah blah. Then he brings out some diamonds that were again "ideal" cuts from HIS Sarin report. But I noted that the Sarin report didn''t contain the table%.

My questions are how common is an "ideal" cut and do you need the table% to establish if the diamond is ideal or not?

Anyway, I asked him about his return policy and he told me that it has been the policy of the store since 1954(?) that there are no returns. That is fine, it has been MY policy since 1972 to NEVER purchase anything from someone who won''t let me return it.

But anyway I felt like he is a total scammer. I really hope that he reads here so he will know how he comes across to people. He give honest jewelers a bad name.

 

[pricescope]

Tnd,

Take a look at these earlier threads.
Calling all EGL stone owners or those who purchased EGL and returned
SI3 = I1?
Concern with EGL cert S12 - a deal?

Some dealers report that they see GIA SI2 today which would never get SI2 a few years ago. In this situation SI3 from EGL USA might not be too bad.

Keep also in mind that diamonds with EGL reports cost about 8%-10% less. I would recommend asking impartial independent appraiser.

It is strange that your jeweler' Sarin machine doesn't tell table size. And of course "no return" sounds a little too tough

 

[tnd]

Well, Furthermore, I didn't use his name, give his store name, or give his location, so I fail to see how he could sue me. I would have to somehow cause damage to him, personally and his business, which I didn't do. Any way, if there is no SI3 grade, why did I see them in his store?

As far as the return policy, I explained to him that I was unsure how a larger stone would look on my current setting and once it was set if I didn't like it what would happen. I would be willing to pay for the work done setting it, but if I don't leave the store with the diamond why won't he take it back. And finally, I would want to have that stone looked at by an INDEPENDANT Appraiser and if it wasn't what he said then I should be able to return it.

 

[AnnaMagdalena]

SI3 has not always been a grade. It was created so that "high" I1's can get an SI grade. GIA doesn't recognize or use the grade, but some other labs do. As you can imagine, sellers with I grade stones who want their stones to receive an SI grade send their stones to those labs. That's my impression--experts can fine tune my explanation.

So there *is* and there *isn't* SI3.

If you can't trust your vendor, go elsewhere! It's a big purchase and there are plenty of trustworthy vendors with fabulous stones out there. Most of the vendors discussed here, if not all, allow independent appraisal either before purchase or within the return period.

It sounds sketchy to me. A good store should confidently stand by their product and be willing to allow independent appraisal. Plus, the whole "since 1954" stuff is such a line. Those years of business won't make the stone look more beautiful.

 

[trichrome]

walk away..walk away....walk away...

whenever you feel bad when going in a jewelry store, walk away!

I must say that there is ONE good jeweler out there for every EIGHT or TEN.....

Here are the bull**** you'll encounter during your shopping experience :

1) The Big Store with The Red Carpet, The Big Fancy Lights, The Roman Architecture,
The Tie From Gucci...etc...
Clerks don't know a thing about diamonds... they're just looking at you to guess how
much you make every month...and then they propose you something that fits your
budget... Best Way To Approach Those Idiots :
-wear a tie
-or say EXACTLY what you think about them (but never come back again)
-talk to the owner so you'll be able to talk with someone who knows something

2) The mall store : medium quality, bad clerks, extreme lightening... don't go there to
buy high quality.. you simply won't find it.

3) The family owned store : diamonds & jewelry goes in the family since Jesus was born...
There are two types :
- the reason why the business is well established since 1842 is because they have made
so much money in the past in scamming people that they look at you as their next victim.
- you trully have in front of you a guy (or a girl) who knows his stuff, likes what he does,
and will provide you with very good information. This guy has sometimes some gemmology
background, his himself doing some manual work (setting for example) and will listen to you
and provide you with a very good deal.

4) The Internet : good people out there but many sharks too. Try to find who is who and
you'll be able to get a good deal too. Companies are trying to incresae their size of the
market pie by selling THE thing the others don't have : The super super super Ideal Cut TM,
the diamond coming with a 1000 pages document containing all analysis possible
including the Throw The Diamond In Space Destruction Trial... well, this is marketing I guess.

5) And guess what... it's The Beers who said to you since you were born that you
SHOULD buy that damn 1 CARAT of carbon.....

Hope this helps,

Trichrome

PS : The "Trichrome Super Ideal Signature Diamond" will be available soon across
North America.

 

[trichrome]

See attached file from previous post.

Trichrome.

 

[pricescope]

trichrome:

----------------
PS : The "Trichrome Super Ideal Signature Diamond" will be available soon across
North America.
----------------

What is that suppose to mean?

 

[Giangi]

Run away as fast as you can!!

 

[Mara]

Furthermore--

No the jeweler would not tear anyone to pieces in court, because as the original poster noted, he never listed a name, location or anything that could constitute slander. Also, slander in court technically means that what was detailed out is false and can be proven. Splitting hairs, but that is what lawyers do. So please stop trying to scare our poor poster who is just trying to share an experience that was less than stellar. That is what this board is all about.

TND--

You are right to run away from this jeweler. No return policy? HAH...good try. And the likening of a diamond purchase to a car is ridiculous. If you buy a car, it's well known there is not usually a return policy. But if you buy a diamond..99% of the vendors out there have a return policy, so why bother to give your biz to someone who doesn't?

As the others noted, the SI3 grade was created by EGL somewhat late in the game as a sales tactic, but it does in fact actually exist, as evidenced by the stones you saw in this jeweler's case that were listed SI3. How ridiculous to tell you that it doesn't exist when you are looking right at them, it's just an insult to your intelligence.

Keep searching, you sound as though you have learned alot online. Yes, don't believe everything you read online, but I'm sure you are smart enough to weed out the facts from fiction.

Lastly, just because this jeweler has been in biz since 1954 means nothing. It just means that he has gotten some of the average general buying public (which as we all know is pretty clueless when it comes to diamonds) to frequent his store. Kudos to him. Knowledge is power and its your money to spend. You decide where to put it and how it pans out.

Good luck!!

 

[pqcollectibles]

Hi TND!

I like your buying policy. Stick with it! Especially in this case!

Dittos to the comments abt SI3. That's an EGL thing and maybe others have adopted it too. GIA and AGS don't have or recognize SI3 as a grade.

Dittos about the lawsuit thingy too. How in the heck are we, or anybody supposed to know who TND is talking about. We don't even know who TND really is, where TND is, and we also don't know what jeweler TND is talking about. How could that be slander???

I have a suggestion for you. Pick up some CZ's in the sizes you think you might like to have in your ring. Not carat weight size, but diameter measurements. Play with them over your existing diamond and try getting a feel for what you want. That will give you some time to cool down, clear your head a bit, and maybe find another jeweler more accommodating to help you do what you want. My jeweler would as long as it's a diamond she's looking at resetting and I pay for the labor and buy the mounting heads. That's the difference between customer service and simply trying to make a sale.

Good Luck! Hope it all works out! When you do get your ring set up, you must post pics!

 

[pyramid]

Yes. I have the same problem with a jeweller who will not give a refund and they have been in the business for 40 years I have been told twice by them.

 

[trichrome]

Yes my Signature Diamond will be available soon..
It will have the "TRICHROME" label inscribed on the girdle.

Price will range between rap*3 and rap*5 depending on the
look of the client:

-if the client (or fiance) is wearing a ring with a diamond > 2 ct,
then the price will be rap*5
-if the diamond is < 2ct, then you'll end up getting a 40% REBATE!!!!
so you'll pay ONLY rap*3

Trichrome.

please visit www.trichromediamonds.com for more information.

 

[tnd]

I would like to clear the air. While I was making a point about the SI3 thing, that was not the reason that I think he was scamming. The real reason that I thought that he was scamming, if you read the question, was about the whole "ideal" cut thing. So, Furthermore, please reread my original post and answer the question that I asked. He makes it sound like almost every diamond that he sells is "ideal". And I was asking if that sounded like a scam? And the end of my post didn't call him a scammer it only said that I felt like he was a scammer. Oh, and while you are rereading my post you may want to note that I made no mention of where I live or anything that could directly point you to the aformentioned scammer. I never said that I hoped that the world would see what a scammer he was and not patronize his store, I was hoping that he would see how he comes across to the people who shop there.

Just to vouch for this guys character, last week when I was in his shop, I asked him if I bought a diamond from someone out-of-state and wanted to have it set how much would he charge and he said, "As much as I can." What a real nice guy, don't you think? You may ask why did you go back to his store? Well, it was only my frugalness that led me back there, big mistake that won't be repeated.

 

[Mara]

Furthermore..I would love to concede, but alas I cannot...because the original poster was not incorrect about SI3 stones. They DO exist, who and which labs recognize them is not the point. The jeweler told him that they don't exist and not to read so much on the internet. Meaning what? Don't learn and then come into the store and ask questions that make the jeweler actually have to fire up a brain cell and think? Then the original poster finds them in the own man's store after being told they don't exist? EGL recognizes the SI3 grading and I think most people would agree they exist even if GIA and AGS do not recognize. I guess I'm just confused if you are saying they don't???

Also another point is that the original poster said nothing about a 'buy back', but rather specified a return policy. You mention not many jewelers do that. In the UK do they not have return policies on stones? Literally every jewelry store, large and small that I visited here in California when we were shopping had a return policy. If they didn't...I didn't shop there. The big online vendors like Blue Nile and Diamond.Com have 30 day policies, even smaller vendors like the ones here on Pscope have them. It's about customer satisfaction. Not...sorry, you bought your spiel sucka. We see posts here all the time about return policy being a huge issue, so I don't know why any buyer would want to shell out a few thou for a stone with no return policy. Esp if they don't allow you to get it independently appraised before purchase...then you need that return policy window to cushion yourself in case of a hard fall!

 

[Richard Sherwood]

SI3 is a market driven grade. For years, dealers and consumers were paying more for "top I's" that were borderline eyeclean. They referred to them unofficially as "SI3's". These were the stones that it was almost a crime that GIA graded as I1's.

This market level became officially recognized when Martin Rapaport began publishing it in his report, and EGL began documenting it in their certificates. Since then it has been endorsed in the Year 2000 meeting of the World Diamond Congress, and accepted by the World Federation of Diamond Bourses.

Personally, I have no problem with it. It reflects the reality of the marketplace, and as an appraiser, I am supposed to document those realities. In truth, there is a grade which commands more money than the average I1, yet doesn't quite reach the level of where GIA will give it an SI2.

GIA was none to happy that another laboratory "stole their thunder", yet at the same time was receiving a lot of flak for grading SI2's-I1's far more stringently than they taught in their courses and depicted in their materials.

GIA will probably never adopt the SI3 grade (because they didn't think of it first), but I believe they might be attempting to compensate by a "relaxing" of their former OVERLY CRITICAL grading of I1-SI2 stones. Many people are criticizing GIA for this, but I feel that GIA might finally be rectifying an unfair lab grading criteria of the past.

The problem is that they should make an official announcement to that effect if it is indeed true.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

...

 

[Giangi]

Rich... I agree with you 100% --remember that great minds think alike

-- and I think GIA is waaaaaaaaaaaay off in SI 2 grading right now. I'm sorry to say that only very, very fefw stones are eye clean. Now I see diamonds with fairly large to large inclusions right in the middle of the table that would get for sure HRD P 1 - I 1. Do you agree with me on this point?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
I think GIA is waaaaaaaaaaaay off in SI 2 grading right now.
-----------

Come on, Giangi. "waaaaaaaaaaaay off"?

-----------
I'm sorry to say that only very, very fefw stones are eye clean. Now I
see diamonds with fairly large to large inclusions right in the
middle of the table that would get for sure HRD P 1 - I 1.
-----------

This has not been my experience. The vast majority of GIA SI2's I see are eyeclean, until you get into the larger carat weights of course.

There's a lot of variables that apply here. The size of the diamond is one. Inclusions of identical size and placement are going to be easier to see in a 7 carat SI2 for example, than they are in a 3/4 carat SI2. Is it fair for that stone to receive an I1 just because it's larger? No. Consequently the grading of larger stones is one variable in the question of "eyeclean".

Also, the whole concept of eyeclean was founded on the scenario of the average person with average vision examining the stone intently with their naked eye (prior to louping it) at a distance of about 12 inches.

Many dealers and consumers will scour a diamond with a loupe first, locating all the inclusions, and then back off to look at it with the naked eye while maintaining an eagle eye lock on the location where the inclusion was, and then rock the stone back and forth under lateral illumination until they spot the inclusion. Then they exclaim "Ahah! It's visible with the naked eye. Gotta be an I1".

This circumvents the whole concept of "eye clean", and would often put VS stones in this "incorrect category" of I1.

Giangi, I find that a lot of the dealers (and consumers) that second guess GIA's SI2 grade are not gemologists. They might be top notch professionals in their area of expertise, but only a gemologist has been through the extensive training of clarity grading, and is proficient with all the nuances involved. To go back to my example of a 7 carat, most experienced gemologists would know right away that the stone was an SI2, even if the inclusion was eye visible. Many others would automatically assume it was an overgraded I1.

Size, color, nature and placement of the inclusions all play a part in the final grade. It requires extensive training and experience to choreograph all these factors into a final clarity grade. GIA has high standards, and I don't see them prostituting themselves over this issue. On the contrary, I think they are trying more than ever to be responsible in the assigning of the SI2 grade. In my opinion, their current grading is reflecting this.

 

[trichrome]

I like to go sometimes in some jewelry stores in my area...
to listen to all the stupidities they say to you...
after a couple of minutes, I like to see their face when they
discover that you know 10x what they know on diamonds & all what's
related to this business.

Then they might ask you "are you a jeweler or what?" (good scenario :
we are then able to communicate and talk a little bit about business)
or try to misrespect you (at that time, I prefer to say simply
what I think about them).

I think that all this business has to change... there are too many sharks
out there, too much misrepresentation, too many stupid clerks.

Trichrome.

 

[Final Cut]

Hey Trichrome,

I will buy 4 of your "super super HHHH &&&&& AAAAAA Above the Cuttest of the Cuts" if you give me 30 days money back, ship a free deck of tarot cards and engrave the name of your first pet on the girdle... Do we have a deal ?

FC

 

[Giangi]

Well, maybe I've seen unlucky GIA stones. I was refering to ~ 1ct stones, even though I just saw a 0.25 SI 2 with a clearly visible white crystal. I see your points and agree on all of them (even though I do think that about 40% of GIA SI 2 of medium size is eye clean.). We're humans and we cannot agree on all of our opinions, but I do think that right now GIA is more relaxed in SI 2 grade than let's say 2 years ago. I've noticed the same thing on HRD VVS 2...

I'm pretty sure this is happening cause there are many labs with aggressive to use an euphemism (read: liberal) which are gettin every day a bunch of new customers because of how they work. GIA grading isn't as tight anymore because of that. It's a real shame, in my opinion. I do recognize that some old GIA I1's are just too good for that grade but not enough for an SI 2 and should get an intermediate grade. I also think that GIA terms are causing this; I 1 is normally referred as Imperfect 1 (and occasionally as Included 1), which makes the stone look bad to the customer. Very few people with a bit of diamonds education would buy a diamond represented as Imperfect 1. Some of them wouldn't want to see a tiny inclusion with the naked eye, but many wouldn't want a diamond graded as 'imperfect'. It's just the word and not the grade. I hope you see the point. Here we use pique' (which is french) and it doesn't sound as bad as imperfect.

As for the grading, yeah, you're right, there are just too many unprofessional dealers out there and everybody should do simply its work and not more. You need to know how to grade a diamond, you cannot invent it on the spot. As you wrote size, color, position and placement of the inclusions play a role and everybody should know that.

Take care

 

[AGBF]

On 5/17/2003 3:42:35 PM Furthermore wrote:

"Actually,slander does NOT have to mention a name - but just to give enough info so that a conclusion can be drawn as to who the person is...."

Yes, well that means that under UK law no slander was committed here since no one has a clue to anything about the vendor.

Should we discuss some other laws the original poster (tnd) didn't commit under UK law? It actually sounds like fun. We can see who knows the most about UK law this way. I reserve the right to telephone my solicitor for information when posting about this since I know nothing about UK law except that before England was Great Britain or the UK they needed the Magna Carta there on account of Prince John being a Bad King ("1066 and All That").

 

[pqcollectibles]

LOLOL, Final Cut!

Put me on the list too, Trichrome!

I want the SUPEREST SUPER IDEAL you have and forget the discounts. In fact charge me extra for having great jewelry and really really nice clothes on. I'll even throw on a tie for you. But, I must have perks like FC. Ssssaaaayyyy, instead of Tarot cards, you throw in a Magic 8 ball instead.

On Grading, A shopping experience to relate:

While I was shopping I saw an I1, slightly 1+ carat, that shocked me. I couldn't consider it as it was out of my price range, but I looked none the less. It was GIA graded, forget the color. 100% eye clean to the casual observer. I saw it in the case and wondered how it got the I1. I asked the clerk if I could see it. I turned it around a bit and still nothing jumped out at me. I asked if it really was I1. I thought maybe a typo or a bad day. Who knows. "Oh Yes, Indeed. Just look a bit more and see if you see why." I rotated it and looked it more. Then I saw it. A rather large, "black" inclusion sitting under the "corner" edge of the table in the angle down toward the girdle. It was almost completely camouflaged by the cut and only visible when turned at about a 45 degree angle to the table from the side. Face up, head on, 100% eye clean.

When considering clarity rating, overall cut, size and placement of inclusions really does come down to the eye of the beholder.

 

[trichrome]

Oh yes!!!1 I'm gonna be rich soon.....so many people are asking for my diamonds!!!

I must say also that they were all tested for their hardness.......by biting
them with my gold teeth.

Trichrome.

By the way, I'm also selling rings with 99.99 % pure platinum mixed with 0.01 % of
hydrogen.... the hydrogen will keep the shine of your ring for at least 200 years.
It was tested in the lab and is approved by the FDA.

 

[pqcollectibles]

FDA???

Is that FALL DOWN ALL (LAUGHING)???!!!

I get in on the ground floor don't I, for being one of the first to place an order????

 

[DIAMOND AND SCHEMES]

Speaking of slander,libel
I watched a program on tv on chat rooms and forums where people slander eachother without no recourse because it is a opinion and freedom of speech blah blah blah. But run that same bull in a print advertisment and you will be sharing a cell with leroy. I believe the us should adopt stricter guidelines on this matter or maybe it is a hard matter to prove. interesting post

 

[DIAMOND AND SCHEMES]

oops forgot something. I sell si3 diamonds and I fully agree with them
ok WHY? Because I have to to be competitive. Does this make me a scammer?
no I am just a poor sucker that works very hard trying to make a living saving all my life being forced into the mainstream to compete with the other stores. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BENJAMINS

 

[tina242]

Date: 5/18/2003 8:42:53 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood
-----------
I think GIA is waaaaaaaaaaaay off in SI 2 grading right now.
-----------

Come on, Giangi. ''waaaaaaaaaaaay off''?

-----------
I''m sorry to say that only very, very fefw stones are eye clean. Now I
see diamonds with fairly large to large inclusions right in the
middle of the table that would get for sure HRD P 1 - I 1.
-----------

This has not been my experience. The vast majority of GIA SI2''s I see are eyeclean, until you get into the larger carat weights of course.

There''s a lot of variables that apply here. The size of the diamond is one. Inclusions of identical size and placement are going to be easier to see in a 7 carat SI2 for example, than they are in a 3/4 carat SI2. Is it fair for that stone to receive an I1 just because it''s larger? No. Consequently the grading of larger stones is one variable in the question of ''eyeclean''.

Also, the whole concept of eyeclean was founded on the scenario of the average person with average vision examining the stone intently with their naked eye (prior to louping it) at a distance of about 12 inches.

Many dealers and consumers will scour a diamond with a loupe first, locating all the inclusions, and then back off to look at it with the naked eye while maintaining an eagle eye lock on the location where the inclusion was, and then rock the stone back and forth under lateral illumination until they spot the inclusion. Then they exclaim ''Ahah! It''s visible with the naked eye. Gotta be an I1''.

This circumvents the whole concept of ''eye clean'', and would often put VS stones in this ''incorrect category'' of I1.

Giangi, I find that a lot of the dealers (and consumers) that second guess GIA''s SI2 grade are not gemologists. They might be top notch professionals in their area of expertise, but only a gemologist has been through the extensive training of clarity grading, and is proficient with all the nuances involved. To go back to my example of a 7 carat, most experienced gemologists would know right away that the stone was an SI2, even if the inclusion was eye visible. Many others would automatically assume it was an overgraded I1.

Size, color, nature and placement of the inclusions all play a part in the final grade. It requires extensive training and experience to choreograph all these factors into a final clarity grade. GIA has high standards, and I don''t see them prostituting themselves over this issue. On the contrary, I think they are trying more than ever to be responsible in the assigning of the SI2 grade. In my opinion, their current grading is reflecting this.

Well, I am an amateur at diamonds, as I am just newly engaged girl w/ an SI3 diamond. My diamond is far from eye clean. It''s got a big black speck in it. My question is, is this bad? I am a bit confused...some people say few are eye clean, some people act like my diamond is a big piece of junk....

 

[bscpu1972]

You can''t get sued for printing the truth.

It''s slander if it''s not true or can''t be proven (then you can be sued).

It''s gossip if it''s none of your business to talk about it.

I do agree with the guy about return policies though. It''s their choice not to offer refunds. Diamonds can be remounted. Some people are really good about returns too. Somehow I got a scratch on my diamond. I found it when I got paint on my ring and was cleaning it. I don''t know if it was there when my hubby bought it or if it happened later. How was my big question if it was a diamond in the first place. So I took my ring to an expensive jeweller. Without the scratch he appraised it for twice as much as we paid for it. Then he said the scratch had to have happened before the stone was mounted. I had the ring for 3 years by then, but I still returned to the place my husband bought it from. I had proof of sale and also they had the sale in their computer system. They exchanged the ring no questions asked but they did look at it closely. While one gentleman was getting something for me to examine my new ring the other was taking my old ring labelling and packaging it up so it would not be mixed in with their sale items. (I felt for sure they''d stick it back under the glass when I walked away.)

If a business makes you feel uncomfortable, it doesn''t mean that they are breaking any laws or are going to pull one over on you.

You may just have a personality conflict with the person that is helping you at the time. So you can just ask for someone else to help you or you can simply leave and find another establishment. I also suggest making sure when you buy something expensive like a diamond, that the paperwork you get with it is well detailed (price and method paid, return policy -even if there is none, complete description, etc). I just love one of my receipts that says "diamond ring $310.96".

Do you know what else works with a business that likes to wheel and deal? Bring someone with you. This person stays very quiet, listening to everything, as if they know something they don''t. They don''t have to say a word. It confuses the clerk into not going into their gimmick like they normally would. We tried this in psychology class. What a hoot!

The best advice is to be an educated consumer. Ask a lot of questions of real people. Anyone can type anything into a webpage. I hear the library has books full of useful and reliable information too.

 

[blueroses]

ummmmm......all for a good debate on libel vs. slander, but this thread is actually over 2 years old!