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Sarin vs. Ideal Scope

daisygrl

daisygrl

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
1,035
I was offered by my jeweler to have Sarin report done instead of IS for diamonds I am interested. I kept asking him for ideal scopes but he said he would give me a full Sarin report (he is a very credible jeweler.) My question is: can Sarin be substituted for Ideal Scope? Can it show a light return? I do not quite see how. I will be bringing my own IS with me to check the diamonds and I told that to my jeweler and he said it was ok.
 
Sarin is a lot more detailed than IS/ASET - you'll get to see individual facet angles and sizes, which can be useful for identifying potential leakage and confirming if it's a well-cut stone (i.e. small ranges for each facet group).
 
You cannot hope to use a Sarin report without substantial training and experience. Consumers read such a report and can't hope to understand it without a knowledge background. It explains nothing, but it is loaded with numbers that would mean next to nothing to most consumers. It is very impressive, but not really of use for most folks.
The Ideal-Scope gives you a rapid visual which is rather easy to compare and interpret. You don't need an advanced degree or years of experience. You do have to be highly motivated and willing to make comparisons to on-line samples in order to make the interpretation. Most consumers can handle the process reasonably well.

Avoid the smoke and mirror game and learn more about the Idea-Scope. It may seem unscientific, but it makes interpretation of light return, leakage and symmetry into a very fast process that most anyone can handle.
 
Agree with @oldminer that the power of an IS or ASET image is the ability and ease to quickly discern problems utilizing VISUAL reference.

That said, I love the idea of getting a SARIN as it can tell you loads about a stone if you can intepret it.

Personally I'd have him run the SARIN and use my own scope(s) in combo with it. Then you have the best of both worlds. And cost is fairly low. Less than $100 gets you both scopes and if you can just choose 1....then $50 gets you an ASET scope.

You can buy both an ASET and IS scope from @oldminer via his website. Alternatively you can buy an ASET scope directly from AGS.

Products

datlas.com datlas.com

Handheld ASET - American Gem Society

The handheld ASET is easy to use on loose or mounted diamonds, and is convenient for travel. Learn more at AmericanGemSociety.org.
www.americangemsociety.org
 
sledge said:
Agree with @oldminer that the power of an IS or ASET image is the ability and ease to quickly discern problems utilizing VISUAL reference.

That said, I love the idea of getting a SARIN as it can tell you loads about a stone if you can intepret it.

Personally I'd have him run the SARIN and use my own scope(s) in combo with it. Then you have the best of both worlds. And cost is fairly low. Less than $100 gets you both scopes and if you can just choose 1....then $50 gets you an ASET scope.

You can buy both an ASET and IS scope from @oldminer via his website. Alternatively you can buy an ASET scope directly from AGS.

Products

datlas.com datlas.com

Handheld ASET - American Gem Society

The handheld ASET is easy to use on loose or mounted diamonds, and is convenient for travel. Learn more at AmericanGemSociety.org.
www.americangemsociety.org
Click to expand...

Thank you for clarifying! I was thinking of doing the same! I will be getting Sarin for sure by my jeweler but hardly doubt I can fully understand it so I will be bringing my own IS as well, like you said, "to have the best of both worlds."
 
oldminer said:
You cannot hope to use a Sarin report without substantial training and experience. Consumers read such a report and can't hope to understand it without a knowledge background. It explains nothing, but it is loaded with numbers that would mean next to nothing to most consumers. It is very impressive, but not really of use for most folks.
The Ideal-Scope gives you a rapid visual which is rather easy to compare and interpret. You don't need an advanced degree or years of experience. You do have to be highly motivated and willing to make comparisons to on-line samples in order to make the interpretation. Most consumers can handle the process reasonably well.

Avoid the smoke and mirror game and learn more about the Idea-Scope. It may seem unscientific, but it makes interpretation of light return, leakage and symmetry into a very fast process that most anyone can handle.
Click to expand...

I would not be the one using a Sarin. My jeweler would - he is very reputable. I would have no idea what to look for. I did order my IS though, which I believe, I have learned to interpret by now. I got the advanced one just in case, although the beginner one would have sufficed as well. I am making a pretty big purchase $24,000+ so just in case... Thank you for clarifying though!
 
Ask the jeweler for a copy of the SARIN report and then post it here for review. Even better if you can use your IS scope and snap a picture as well that you can post with the SARIN.

Preferably do this and allow time to analyze BEFORE you purchase. I think this is reasonable as $24k is a decent chunk of change.

In the interim, can you post the lab report? Or provide a number so we can go pull it?
 
Sarin reports will not clearly show stones with twisted pavilions like the one @sledge found the other day.
The sarin averages the twisted facet into one number for the report.
 
sledge said:
Ask the jeweler for a copy of the SARIN report and then post it here for review. Even better if you can use your IS scope and snap a picture as well that you can post with the SARIN.

Preferably do this and allow time to analyze BEFORE you purchase. I think this is reasonable as $24k is a decent chunk of change.

In the interim, can you post the lab report? Or provide a number so we can go pull it?
Click to expand...

That is a great suggestion! Right now, I am waiting for my jeweler to find me some diamonds of my preferred ct, color and clarity. Then I will go look at them. Then, per your suggestion, I will get the Sarin of the stone I like and post it here. Not sure how skilled I am taking pics of IS but will try my best.

Btw, Sledge, we are talking about the same jeweler that did your wife's ring. :) So he is trustworthy but I am still a bit uneasy considering the amount of money I am about to spend.
 
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daisygrl said:
Thank you for clarifying! I was thinking of doing the same! I will be getting Sarin for sure by my jeweler but hardly doubt I can fully understand it so I will be bringing my own IS as well, like you said, "to have the best of both worlds."
Click to expand...

I meant to say "highly doubt" instead of "hardly" ... duuuh. :roll: :lol:
 
Karl_K said:
Sarin reports will not clearly show stones with twisted pavilions like the one @sledge found the other day.
The sarin averages the twisted facet into one number for the report.
Click to expand...
A full sarin should show information? Here's my wife's stone.

3.34ct Siran.jpg
 
DF the numbers are an average accross the facet if its not flat it will not show it.
 
Karl_K said:
DF the numbers are an average accross the facet if its not flat it will not show it.
Click to expand...
I have a full Sarin somewhere. It shows every facet of the stone.
 
@Karl_K wouldn't the jeweler have the ability to provide computer generated ASET, IS and H&A images to the OP, utilizing the 3D scan data and built-in rendering of the software? Some reports seem to include it.

Not saying they WILL include it, but it should be possible, right?

1581636050668.png

Alternatively, if the OP could get the .srn file from the jeweler, couldn't she just use the free VPA software from AGS to determine if the azimuth is wonky? Not sure if you can generate renderings of the ASET, etc in that program.

But if it detects azimuth, wouldn't it detect twisted lowers, pavs, etc?

Using a data file generated by a 3D scan of the diamond by non-contact optical measuring devices such as the Sarin (.srn), the VPA software analyzes the angles and direction (azimuth) of facets on the crown and pavilion of the diamond. It calculates each set of measurements and then analyzes how consistent they are around the stone and generates graphical images. The individual facet measurements are averaged and those below the average are colored in cyan and those above are colored in magenta. The greater the degree of deviation from the average the darker the color will be. Thus, at a glance you can see a visual representation of cutting precision which gives insight into the care and craftsmanship of the diamond. (See sample images below).
Click to expand...

I need to get a copy of DC so I can start learning more. Guess a .srn file + VPN would allow me some more tinkering but from what I've read, it's pretty basic.

Visual Proportion Analyzer: Free Diamond Assessment Tool

Diamond cut quality is considered by most experts to be the most important of the diamond “4 C’s”. Ideal cut diamonds exhibit more fire and brilliance than ordinary diamonds and to some extent may also look bigger and whiter because of the quantity of light they return to the eye.
www.whiteflash.com

Visual Proportion Analyzer | American Gem Society - American Gem Society

The Visual Proportion Analyzer was developed by AGS to quickly and easily determine the cutting precision of a diamond. Learn more at AmericanGemSociety.org.
www.americangemsociety.org

DiamCalc Diamond Evaluation Software by Octonus | Whiteflash

DiamCalc is an advanced diamond cut evaluation software program from Octonus. It is used by experts and serious diamond enthusiasts to analyze diamond light performance.
www.whiteflash.com
 
sledge said:
@Karl_K wouldn't the jeweler have the ability to provide computer generated ASET, IS and H&A images to the OP, utilizing the 3D scan data and built-in rendering of the software? Some reports seem to include it.
Click to expand...
Maybe but it still based on scan data from a scanner, a real image has a much higher confidence level.

Also do they base an image on the display information(few numbers) or the raw data with more information.
.srn file can be pretty detailed when imported into DC produce images. I believe that the stl files has more information.
The latest Sarin HD with the highest settings can provide some reasonable images that way
Helium is still the image producing king but real images are still better and have a higher confidence level.

But some of the renderings I have seen looked like they are based on the reduced data like is on a normal report and that is not enough for any degree of confidence.

The biggest thing is that some of the intentional defects some cutters are using are designed to be hidden from scanner reports at the basic level.
That puts an even higher confidence level on properly taken real images vs computer generated images.
 
Karl_K said:
Maybe but it still based on scan data from a scanner, a real image has a much higher confidence level.

Also do they base an image on the display information(few numbers) or the raw data with more information.
.srn file can be pretty detailed when imported into DC produce images. I believe that the stl files has more information.
The latest Sarin HD with the highest settings can provide some reasonable images that way
Helium is still the image producing king but real images are still better and have a higher confidence level.

But some of the renderings I have seen looked like they are based on the reduced data like is on a normal report and that is not enough for any degree of confidence.

The biggest thing is that some of the intentional defects some cutters are using are designed to be hidden from scanner reports at the basic level.
That puts an even higher confidence level on properly taken real images vs computer generated images.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. And I agree with you.

My fallacy was I just assumed if you had the scan data, then you'd use that to produce the computer generated images. We know what happens when a person assumes. Using lab reported values just makes me want to :wall:
 
To expand on scanner settings.
A non-contact scanner as used to measure diamonds works by putting the diamond on a rotating platter.
Then images are taken as the patter is rotated, the number of steps per rotation can greatly vary even in the same machine with different settings.
When everything is averages and probably weighted for a report it does not take that many steps but the more steps the better the images will likely be if that is what you want to do.
The more steps the more time it takes for each scan.
The time can vary greatly from a minute or so to 20-30 minutes.
So often they are set to lower steps to make the scan time more reasonable.
The bottom line is the settings you would use specifically for image production are far from the settings needed for just the general numbers. How is the random sarin set up? Which model is it? On the older ones is the proper lens on it for diamond size? Is it properly calibrated? Is it even a sarin and not an ogi? Is it the cheap desktop model ogi that throwing darts at a dart board will get better numbes?
 
Dancing Fire said:
That's true Mr. Elitist ...:Up_to_something::bigsmile:
Click to expand...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Says Mr. 34.5/40.8 with a 54-55 table and fat arrows, preferably in the super ideal variety. :mrgreen:

Seriously, did you see the thread Karl was talking about? Data looked very promising, but the images revealed a much, much different story.

Why Advanced Images Matter...A Bad 34.5/40.8...

I'm just as guilty as anyone. Helping someone find a stone and run across one with that 34.5/40.8 combo. You smile. You then run through the rest of the proportions.... 57 table, 61.7 depth, 75 LGF's, 50 stars and medium-slightly thick girdle....check, check, check,check and check You...
www.pricescope.com
 
Thanks for sharing @John Pollard. I was unaware of this. My comments did not include this potential element as I was not aware it existed until now.

I'd much prefer an ASET and H&A images over this. At least until I know more about them and there is a confidence level established.
 
The problem for your jeweler with Idealscope images is that they take some practice to photograph well. Practice equals time and requires motivation. It helps to have the right camera. He may be short on all of these. You offering to show up with your own in-hand and looking for yourself is a fine solution.
 
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denverappraiser said:
The problem for your jeweler with Idealscope images is that they take some practice to photograph well. Practice equals time and requires motivation. It helps to have the right camera. He may be short on all of these. You offering to show up with your own in-hand and looking for yourself is a fine solution.
Click to expand...

I am glad to hear that there is something I can do. My jeweler will provide a detailed Sarin report.I do have the advanced (expert) IS so we will see how it goes. I am doing it to have a peace of mind. Otherwise I will go with WF instead.
 
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