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Sapphire inclusion

JackTrick

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 23, 2019
Messages
257
idk about that statement that labs wouldn’t be able to tell if it was heated. Any lab that wouldn’t be able to tell is one I wouldn’t trust this stone with. Origin is trickier, but good labs can still make a decent assessment.

is there a lab you’re considering? Or still looking around?
 

Beautiful-disaster

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Messages
273
@JackTrick
We don’t have a lot of options over here and I’m definitely not posting it anywhere as the post here is notoriously bad so it has to be an in person thing.
I have been told to go and see Bill at the GSL (Gem studies Lab) in Sydney.
Which is these guys - https://www.gem.org.au/gem-testing/

I’m finding it very confusing actually as they have similar names but seem to have different website that say similar things - like this. https://www.gemstudieslaboratory.com.au/coloured-gemstones.html

But the options are pretty limited.
I will do my homework checking reviews but I trust the advice @Bron357 has given as they have had experience using both Doug the gem cutter and Bill at the Lab.
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
4,580
@Beautiful-disaster GSL where Bill works is the “best” gem lab on the East Coast. He is accredited by/with GAA which is the Australian equivalent of GIA for training to become a gemologist.
GAA incidently has a two year course which I did one year of. I was a bit disappointed with the course content (over emphasis in my opinion of the molecular basis and chemistry behind gems) and the facilities. It wasn’t a cheap course and I felt that it was pretty much a 1 year course content padded out to make 2 years ie extra $$$ from students. It was also very crowded and we were crammed in 6 or 7 to a lab table sharing which meant out of a 3 hour lab, maybe 40 minutes actually using the equipment. That and their study gems were so old, worn and chipped it was extra hard to do some identifications (oh, you have the cracked garnet, ask table 3 if you can borrow theirs).
That said, if you have a valuable/ exotic gem and you want top dollar the gem really has to go overseas for assessment by a “recognised” lab. The one for Aussies to use is Lotus Gemology In Thailand. I have two Burmese rubies and two Burmese? sapphires that need to go there. My plan had been (thanks COVID) to take them there myself, have a holiday and bring them home. This is because insured international shipping is tricky, especially back to Australia. Customs can hit you with the GST to re import and though you can claim it back, you still have to pay it up front to get your shipment through customs. It would be thousands of dollars in my case. Because the gems are valuable I decided it would be easier and safer to take them there. Maybe next year if things are normal again.
 

Beautiful-disaster

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Messages
273
I will see about making an appointment with the lab tomorrow. Hopefully they aren’t too busy and can fit me in.
Interesting that they would need to go to Thailand.
Every couple of years we go to Portugal to visit family and usually do a few days stop over in Singapore. It wouldn’t be to hard to skip over to Thailand. We actually just went last year for 9weeks before COVID hit but went through Dubai (that’s a 13hr direct flight I don’t plan on doing again EVER).
Is there are European option that you know of? We often will drive to Spain, France and Italy while there.

I applaud you for trying to get into thr gem game. It’s an industry that is a incredible combination of science and math - even art.
Did you plan on eventually making your own jewellery?
I have been watching an amazing jewellers videos on YouTube - they are beautifully shot and wonderful to watch.
His name is Pablo Simadevila.

His work is inspiring but just seeing the amount of machinery he uses was enough to make me realise I could never learn to do this - well not without years of time and lots of money ;)2
 

Rfisher

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
2,727
Interesting journey!
Hope you do let us know how it all pans out. Love these stories about inherited pieces and finds.

I do have a question -
The original pictures you showed of this stone look quite different than your current avatar pic
Is that the range of color shift you see in different environmental lightings?

I think shifty stones are interesting!
 

Beautiful-disaster

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Messages
273
Interesting journey!
Hope you do let us know how it all pans out. Love these stories about inherited pieces and finds.

I do have a question -
The original pictures you showed of this stone look quite different than your current avatar pic
Is that the range of color shift you see in different environmental lightings?

I think shifty stones are interesting!
The photo in my profile pic is enhanced with photo editing for the fun of it. The stone does look much brighter and bluer out side and even more so in the sun. It doesn’t like office type lighting (honestly who does - we all look terrible in that lighting - lol).

He was examining it in a bowl of water in the office lighting .... and it wasn’t until he put it under light to look through the scope that he saw how lovely it really is.
He said he loves the way it sparkles all around the circumference which funnily enough is due to colour banding.
People are usually looking for their sapphire to *glow* not *sparkle* as such but it’s completely won me over.

I can see it’s far from the perfect hue and even further from the perfect saturation but it certainly has its own bewitching charm that wins you over.

I posted a video on another thread of my playing with it outside - I can post it here too if you would like - that thread is full of off topic posts so I started a new one until I can work out how to delete my posts
 

Ionysis

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 1, 2015
Messages
193
I’ve been avidly following the sapphire story - I need more news!! Did you take it to a lab? Is it heated or not? I bet the valuation for insurance purposes would not be $10k!!! Please update!
 

Beautiful-disaster

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Messages
273
@Ionysis - I haven’t taken it unfortunately I had to hit pause temporarily again. My daughter went to a sleep over and came home running a fever so I have been looking after her and waiting to see if I get sick before taking her to be tested.
that’s what I get for letting her out of our little bubble!- so frustrating.
I will make an appointment ASAP as it’s really bothering me too.
I have been looking online at other similar stones and know I couldn’t match it for the price quoted.... then again I’m not in the trade so am obviously seeing retail prices and not trade prices.
 

Beautiful-disaster

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Messages
273
Thank you for sharing this journey. I think it's a treasure of a stone.
I’m so glad I have people to share it with.
when I get the lab report I will make a new thread that explains the whole journey as it’s now kind of broken up over the forum.
it’s sadly sitting in a box in front of me right now screaming at me that it wants to be worn and not hidden away anymore.
 

LightBright

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
790
I’m so glad I have people to share it with.
when I get the lab report I will make a new thread that explains the whole journey as it’s now kind of broken up over the forum.
it’s sadly sitting in a box in front of me right now screaming at me that it wants to be worn and not hidden away anymore.
Hi Beautiful-Disaster. I am not a sapphire expert, but I do have a little tooth size one in an antique setting. :) I am getting nervous reading your story. As a “true antique“ cut lover, I love an antique cut, flaws and all. I speak from experience when I say antique cuts are not valued by modern gem cutters as much as some antique cut collectors do. An original antique cut (abrasions and flea bites and all) is something of value. IMO the antique cut sapphire is an EXTREMELY coveted gem. They are not cut this way anymore, they are mostly recut and the large stones are rarer.

Personally, and I speak from experience, I would have a skilled experienced setter set your stone back in a setting that you can wear. I would have them do this in front of you. And I would NOT touch the table on your sapphire before you reset it. I would not touch a thing. I would wear it for at least six months and experience it in all kinds of light before you let anyone touch it with a polishing device. If you destroy the proportions of an antique stone, even by a small fraction of a table, you might destroy the integrity (Eg the balance and artistry) of the original cut. I personally LOVE your stone’s very small table. Your stone‘s cut is wonderful. My opinion is likely an outlier here, but I believe you shouldn’t jump to any decisions or rush to ”fix” things before you figure out how you feel about what you are told you should change.

PS, the stone is sparkling all around the perimeter because an artisan cut facets in a way that made that perimeter light up (and he worked with the color banding inherent in the stone that you talked about in your post). So the cut and the color zoning of the crystal work together in a deliberate way. This is something to be cherished and preserved (IMO).

Just my two cents. Good luck!!
 
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Beautiful-disaster

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Messages
273
@LightBright - your time and opinion is certainly worth more then two cents to me!
You put very eloquently how I feel about it.
I doubt anyone could put a figure on it that would match how I felt about it, and it’s very hard to put sentimental feelings aside.
As an artist I find I have a unique appreciation for things that are beautifully imperfect - like the way Japanese artisans will repair a broken bowl with gold inlay in the cracks creating an even more beautiful bowl that now has a more intricate and soulful life story.
I could tell when the gem cutter didn’t appreciate the setting (because it was silver) that we were mismatched in our line of thinking.
The jeweller that I bought my ER from made it himself in an antique style in white gold using H&A (G VS1) diamonds (and as a bonus was my local small business jeweller). So I have someone I trust to make me a very similar piece in white gold (not sure how his filigree skills are though).

I was just looking to book the lab now when I got notification of your post - I keep pausing because I think maybe I should go and get my daughter the COVID test before I do that as I don’t want to expose anyone - even though we have had literally zero positive cases in the last couple of days. Better safe then sorry.
Such a pain - I think I will just order the at home test to come.

Thankyou so much for your advice and I will be sure to keep you posted.
 

Beautiful-disaster

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Messages
273
Ok - not virus'd (yay)
Booked into the lab for Tuesday (damn long weekend!)
Should have it back with all its information on Thursday (That’s Wednesday to everyone else who isn’t an Aussie lol)
Still impatient but feel better knowing this time next week I will have the answers I have been looking for all these months.

I do have some questions though as I’m a little nervous just leaving it there .... yes I know it’s not a rational fear.

Is it possible the sapphire can get damaged in the testing process?
Will the lab have insurance for misplacing/losing (god forbid) the stone?
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
4,580
The normal tests for sapphire ie microscopic viewing, checking specific gravity, using a spectroscope, a dichroscope are all non invasive. The only one that requires a few atoms of material is full chemical analysis. This would be reserved for valuable gems where a more definite attribution of geographical location is sought ie is it a Kashmir sapphire? This is using a laser on the girdle, a microscopic sample is taken. I don’t believe Bill has this type of equipment, it’s very expensive equipment.
As for insurance, you’d need to check with Bill.
 

Beautiful-disaster

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Messages
273
Thanks @Bron357
I did thoroughly check the website for an FAQ but couldn’t find anything about insurances - although I have seen them on other Lab sites (not Australian ones).
His site also says nothing about valuations which I completely understand as this information would change and be variable.
Will he suggest the best place to take it to?
I know of the one in Castlereagh st in the CBD for diamonds... but I’m assuming there is a more select one for coloured gemstones?
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
4,580
Thanks @Bron357
I did thoroughly check the website for an FAQ but couldn’t find anything about insurances - although I have seen them on other Lab sites (not Australian ones).
His site also says nothing about valuations which I completely understand as this information would change and be variable.
Will he suggest the best place to take it to?
I know of the one in Castlereagh st in the CBD for diamonds... but I’m assuming there is a more select one for coloured gemstones?
My experience is that it’s a case of all care taken but no responsibility accepted. An Aussie attitude to most things. Bill like Doug will have no doubt have a hefty safe that all the preciousness are locked safely into overnight.
Being an appraiser is a different / extra qualification. You need accreditation to be a valuer (and also be a gemologist) and I don’t believe Bill offers that service. I’m sure he can give you the name of a reputable appraiser.
Just remember that there are different types of valuations.
Value for Estate purposes is different to retail replacement value. The former is lower and assumes a quick sale at second hand value at auction less costs whereas retail replacement cost includes taxes, retail costs and assumes an unforced sale period.
 

Beautiful-disaster

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Messages
273
My experience is that it’s a case of all care taken but no responsibility accepted. An Aussie attitude to most things. Bill like Doug will have no doubt have a hefty safe that all the preciousness are locked safely into overnight.
Being an appraiser is a different / extra qualification. You need accreditation to be a valuer (and also be a gemologist) and I don’t believe Bill offers that service. I’m sure he can give you the name of a reputable appraiser.
Just remember that there are different types of valuations.
Value for Estate purposes is different to retail replacement value. The former is lower and assumes a quick sale at second hand value at auction less costs whereas retail replacement cost includes taxes, retail costs and assumes an unforced sale period.
I would like to have the valuation for replacement costs .... am I better to wait to have the setting made or fixed and having it set before I do this?
It’s a bit confusing to me because I know they can’t value a stone 100% when set (I would assume the lab cert would solve this problem)... but I also know that it could be valued for more as an antique jewellery piece then just the stone alone?
Ugh there are so many variables to consider. Not great considering I’m the most indecisive person I know.
Just glad I’m able to get a step closer to hopefully getting to wear it again.
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
4,580
I would set it into a ring before valuation. Can the original setting be rebuilt or is it too worn / not your style? You would take the lab report in with you and the appraiser will then be able to use that information as the basis of the valuation.
If you are insuring your ring, you will need an appraisal first and premiums will be based on that value. Make sure you get the correct type of Insurance policy. If you want worldwide, any event (there will always be exclusions like terrorist acts, acts of war) that’s usually a “stand alone” policy ie not part of your home and contents insurance. More expensive of course. Otherwise as a specified item under your home insurance it’s only for loss while in the home, like theft or fire. Always read and re read your policy documents to make sure you are certain and clear on what type of loss and how it must occur for you to be able to claim against your insurance. For example, it’s very difficult to make a claim for theft if there is no evidence of “break in”. Insurance companies love receiving your premium payments but aren’t so keen on paying out claims. It’s a business.
 

Beautiful-disaster

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Messages
273
The silver pendant setting is old and damaged - the prongs are broken and the jump loops are broken. I really love the pendants style and the way it allows the stone to move around and catch the light which presents the stone really well - I have been told it’s too deep to be put in a ring and I have small hands so anything large looks fake on me.
so I have the choice of trying to have the setting repaired (I do know a very good local silversmith jeweller who could do this) - but silver turns black on me, the pendant never has but the necklace with it did. So that leaves me with the option of having the pendant remade in white gold or platinum (the first option being more in my price range). This would obviously take away from the antique vintage quality of the piece (I think it’s too late to worry about that).
I do know that I really want/need to wear it again to be able to make the decision to sell it or not. So it will need to be set into something.
I thought I would take it to the jeweller that made my ER and see what he suggests.

The insurance I had in mind was for me losing it more then anything.
 

MissSarah

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
179
I will see about making an appointment with the lab tomorrow. Hopefully they aren’t too busy and can fit me in.
Interesting that they would need to go to Thailand.
Every couple of years we go to Portugal to visit family and usually do a few days stop over in Singapore. It wouldn’t be to hard to skip over to Thailand. We actually just went last year for 9weeks before COVID hit but went through Dubai (that’s a 13hr direct flight I don’t plan on doing again EVER).
Is there are European option that you know of? We often will drive to Spain, France and Italy while there.

I applaud you for trying to get into thr gem game. It’s an industry that is a incredible combination of science and math - even art.
Did you plan on eventually making your own jewellery?
I have been watching an amazing jewellers videos on YouTube - they are beautifully shot and wonderful to watch.
His name is Pablo Simadevila.

His work is inspiring but just seeing the amount of machinery he uses was enough to make me realise I could never learn to do this - well not without years of time and lots of money ;)2
His work is so awesome! ...I feel relieved I'm not the only one who reached that conclusion upon seeing that particular video.
 

Beautiful-disaster

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Messages
273
Just left the gem lab.
He said it was lovely 8.63ct non-heated Ceylon Sapphire.
He said size, cut, non-heated and origin would mean it would sell for a premium but the uneven colour would knock it back down in price.
He suggested I set it and get a good valuation. He said it a very good investment piece to hang on to as it will only get more valuable. He also said better not to repolish as the wear matches the age of the stone (?).
I’m picking it back up with full report in two days (as he is closed tomorrow).
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
4,580
Excellent news, as I thought.
Yes, definately get it reset so you can wear and enjoy it. An appraisal after being set makes more sense, as I mentioned before.
Agree with Bill, the age related surface abrasions aren’t excessive or detracting so leave it as is. Any gemstone (except unusually diamond) have little nibbles etc from wear, it’s just how it is. If the wee imperfections do bother you, then consider a repolish.
Looking forward to photos with your beauty in a setting, again, if the original setting can be rehabbed and is to your liking, I’d do that rather than a new one.
 
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