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Ruby which one is the better option?

Ariz

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3
I am in the market to buy a ruby to be set in an 18K gold and diamond ring. My budget is 2500 to 3500$. Here is an eBay listing I found, the 2.21 Ct ruby ( 8.23 mm x 7.24 mm x 3.68 mm) is GIA certified and looks eye-clean. There is a video in the item description. The color looks good to me and it is not heat treated. Price is US $2,669.00

Does this sound too good to be true? The seller is located in France. I will be getting it shipped to US. The Seller has overall good reviews from the past couple of years. No recent reviews.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-06-Cts-G...482142?hash=item2f516bcc9e:g:hD0AAOSw2x5f5f8v

I also like this one 1.80 Carat Oval Ruby. This is (8.00x6.60x3.60 mm) almost the same measurements as the first one but this one is heat-treated and does not have a GIA cert. Price tag $3,650
https://www.jamesallen.com/gemstones/red-ruby/1.80-carat-oval-sku-41653

Which one looks better? I really like James Allen ruby. The eBay ruby is slightly bigger and cheaper. All comments are much appreciated.

Thanks.
 

Ionysis

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 1, 2015
Messages
477
Honestly, I don’t love either of them.

rubies have a tendency to black out and the first one looks dark even in the bright light. Generally vendor photos are the best a stone is ever going to look. I think that one would look super dark in most lights. It’s hard to tell but it looks petty included as well. Also the vendor has no recent feedback. I wouldn’t go for this one.

the JA one looks dull to me and also overpriced.

If I were you I’d keep searching.
 

pokerface

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
316
Please do not purchase either of these. The ebay gem absolutely is NOT eye clean and has massive inclusions, at least one of which looks to be breaking the surface. I have posted about James Allen before. James Allen says their stones are heated but not fractured filled. IMO I believe this marketing is extremely deceptive because it sounds like they are being forthright, but actually, they are selling HIGH HEAT, BERYLLIUM-treated gems without proper disclosure. Just because a sapphire/ruby isn't fractured filled doesn't mean it is valuable. Beryllium treatment is not the same as fracture filling, but beryllium-treated gems are worth tens of dollars, not thousands of dollars. B36E0992-C731-471D-B426-196A6C4FDDEE.jpeg
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
4,279
In that budget, this is what I'd get. https://www.enhoerning-jewelry.com/loosegemstones/088-ct-unheated-moz-ruby-lotus
This is the kind of glowy even at dusk ruby color that will impress far more than the larger size of the two choices you had listed.

The eBay ruby will look too dark when on the finger, and the JA equally so; neither will have sparkle or glow. Since you are spending good money, you might as well spend it on a stone that's more worthwhile and droolworthy. When it comes to colored stones, an excellent color will catch more attention than a duller stone ten times its size.

Your other choice, if you insist on size and that budget, is to go for Chatham (lab created) ruby.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
12,300
I completely agree with others on this.
Neither of the choices will be good. But I love the one voce posted!!!
 

bright&shiny

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 11, 2009
Messages
485
In that budget, this is what I'd get. https://www.enhoerning-jewelry.com/loosegemstones/088-ct-unheated-moz-ruby-lotus
This is the kind of glowy even at dusk ruby color that will impress far more than the larger size of the two choices you had listed.

The eBay ruby will look too dark when on the finger, and the JA equally so; neither will have sparkle or glow. Since you are spending good money, you might as well spend it on a stone that's more worthwhile and droolworthy. When it comes to colored stones, an excellent color will catch more attention than a duller stone ten times its size.

Your other choice, if you insist on size and that budget, is to go for Chatham (lab created) ruby.

You find the best stones!
 

Ariz

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3
Thank you everyone for the kind and helpful replies, it has really saved me from making a mistake. I didn't realize that ruby's color will be darker than what is shown in seller pics. Thank you @lonysis for pointing it out. With that said I like more red than pink rubies.

@pokerface thanks for sending the enlarged pics. My novice eyes didn't notice that.

@voce I like the ruby you posted, thank you. Have you shopped with this seller before, like are they legit? How was your experience? Do they offer returns in the case I don't like it in person?

I looked around for more options on the websites from the pinned post. Here are a few others I like:

https://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.06-carats.html-0
https://www.ajsgem.com/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.10-carats.html-0

They do see treatment is Heat only. From what I know after reading posts on this forum and with my budget, I am ok with some heat treatment as long as they are priced accordingly.

I want the ruby to be set in this setting https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...uster-halo-diamond-engagement-ring-item-66410

So buying a ruby from JA makes the process easier. I am going to talk to James Allen gemologist to see exactly what level of treatment their rubies go through. I have already spoken with a manager and she says they can get the ruby GIA certified on my request. I am waiting to see if they will charge me for the certification. If that's the case I will buy the ruby from another reputable website that offers some certification included in the cost of ruby and send it to JA for the setting.

Here are some that I like from James Allen. They are cheaper than all of the above.
https://www.jamesallen.com/gemstones/red-ruby/1.15-carat-oval-sku-24683
https://www.jamesallen.com/gemstones/red-ruby/1.24-carat-oval-sku-41692
https://www.jamesallen.com/gemstones/red-ruby/1.28-carat-oval-sku-37275

Are they any good?

Thank you again for all the amazing replies. I appreciate the guidance :)
 
Last edited:

Ionysis

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 1, 2015
Messages
477
I’ve bought from AJS before they are a reputable vendor. But their pictures are often pretty horrible. Make sure you contact them to get more photos and videos and in different lights.

if you want the best pricing I highly recommend this guy on Insta. https://instagram.com/ceylonsapphiregems?igshid=1q4prv64tq3dk

I’ve bought a lot of stones from him, spinels and sapphires, and he is very trustworthy with excellent quality stock. He is based in Sri Lanka so your stones are coming right from the source so half the price you’d pay in the US. Stones come with certs from local labs - which in my experience are very reliable.

However, you don’t get the big company returns service etc. Be prepared to keep what you buy or sell it on yourself on louptroup if you decide you don’t want it. Wouldn’t be hard to do though as the price you pay will be wholesale.

He has a couple of rubies on his page recently.
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Apr 22, 2004
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37,741

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
4,279
Thank you everyone for the kind and helpful replies, it has really saved me from making a mistake. I didn't realize that ruby's color will be darker than what is shown in seller pics. Thank you @lonysis for pointing it out. With that said I like more red than pink rubies.

@pokerface thanks for sending the enlarged pics. My novice eyes didn't notice that.

@voce I like the ruby you posted, thank you. Have you shopped with this seller before, like are they legit? How was your experience? Do they offer returns in the case I don't like it in person?

I looked around for more options on the websites from the pinned post. Here are a few others I like:

https://www.ajsgem.com/ruby/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.06-carats.html-0
https://www.ajsgem.com/burma-ruby/burma-ruby-1.10-carats.html-0

They do see treatment is Heat only. From what I know after reading posts on this forum and with my budget, I am ok with some heat treatment as long as they are priced accordingly.

I want the ruby to be set in this setting https://www.jamesallen.com/engageme...uster-halo-diamond-engagement-ring-item-66410

So buying a ruby from JA makes the process easier. I am going to talk to James Allen gemologist to see exactly what level of treatment their rubies go through. I have already spoken with a manager and she says they can get the ruby GIA certified on my request. I am waiting to see if they will charge me for the certification. If that's the case I will buy the ruby from another reputable website that offers some certification included in the cost of ruby and send it to JA for the setting.

Here are some that I like from James Allen. They are cheaper than all of the above.
https://www.jamesallen.com/gemstones/red-ruby/1.15-carat-oval-sku-24683
https://www.jamesallen.com/gemstones/red-ruby/1.24-carat-oval-sku-41692
https://www.jamesallen.com/gemstones/red-ruby/1.28-carat-oval-sku-37275

Are they any good?

Thank you again for all the amazing replies. I appreciate the guidance :)

I agree 100% with Chrono. I think that JA rubies must have a high degree of treatment at those prices, and so won't be as durable (if clarity filled) or color stable compared to heat only, which is the max level of treatment most regular PS members would tolerate.

I like the JA setting you had in mind, but do you realize that it won't work at that price for the JA rubies you were looking at? The setting is for a round stone and I'm sure they'll make you pay more to modify it to fit a cushion or oval.

Enhoerning Jewelry has the very best customer service around. 7 day no questions asked return service. They can also probably give you a nice deal on making you a similar setting as the one you like from JA.

Here is my own ruby from Enhoerning, which I think should be a similar color to what you see in the ruby that I linked. This is in winter in dim light indoors.
PXL_20201214_193745776.jpg

I am thinking that the JA rubies, once set into the ring, will look dismally still and flat in color.
 

Cerulean

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 13, 2019
Messages
1,592
OP - I understand you want the best bang for your buck and that it would be nice to have a big ruby. But I'd listen to folks here.

Rubies are terribly TERRIBLY expensive - good ones, more than diamonds. The one from Enhoerning is just gorgeous. It will pack a bunch and look just gorgeous in a setting like that.

I would not work with JA for a colored stone honestly. I'd stick to a vendor that lives and breathes colored stones. Enhoerning seems to also have very competitive pricing and I am sure could easily make a setting like that - many people on Pricescope have gorgeous rings made by them.

Just my 2 cents.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
12,300
I really would caution you to avoid JA for colored stones. Their pricing makes it pretty clear that the stones are treated in some way (even if they are trying to avoid saying so).
 

Polyhex

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2003
Messages
550
IMO I believe this marketing is extremely deceptive because it sounds like they are being forthright, but actually, they are selling HIGH HEAT, BERYLLIUM-treated gems without proper disclosure. Just because a sapphire/ruby isn't fractured filled doesn't mean it is valuable. Beryllium treatment is not the same as fracture filling, but beryllium-treated gems are worth tens of dollars, not thousands of dollars.

When you say JA is selling undisclosed Beryllium heated gems, do you mean this one or different corundum you have looked at?

@fredflintstone has shared that BE gems have become rare over 1 ct because the treatment only worked well on Songea sapphires and there were a limited # of them, and they are also now selling for a few hundred per ct when large. Appears to be true based on what I have seen on ebay, etsy, and with other vendors. Yavorskyy has a pair of BE sapphires he wants thousands for!
 

pokerface

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
316
I see thousands of large sapphires labeled as diffused on ebay - not to mention the surely thousands more that are unlabeled? I do not know for sure if this JA gem in particular is diffused, I merely strongly suspect it by the language, price point, and photo of the gem itself. JA goes out of its way to say "natural gemstone" and "never treated with fracture filling." There is no similar disavowing of HIGH HEAT or BERYLLIUM or DIFFUSION, which I believe speaks for itself.
 

Polyhex

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2003
Messages
550
I see thousands of large sapphires labeled as diffused on ebay - not to mention the surely thousands more that are unlabeled? I do not know for sure if this JA gem in particular is diffused, I merely strongly suspect it by the language, price point, and photo of the gem itself. JA goes out of its way to say "natural gemstone" and "never treated with fracture filling." There is no similar disavowing of HIGH HEAT or BERYLLIUM or DIFFUSION, which I believe speaks for itself.

I think the thousands you are seeing are either small BE sapphires, low clarity BE sapphires, titanium diffusion of blue stones, or some other treatment the vendor is calling diffusion (glass?) The attractive orange/red/pink/yellow large carat high clarity BE stones are harder to find and not 10s per ct. Or at least if you find one for that price let me know so I can buy it! :mrgreen2:
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
4,279
I think the thousands you are seeing are either small BE sapphires, low clarity BE sapphires, titanium diffusion of blue stones, or some other treatment the vendor is calling diffusion (glass?) The attractive orange/red/pink/yellow large carat high clarity BE stones are harder to find and not 10s per ct. Or at least if you find one for that price let me know so I can buy it! :mrgreen2:

I don't think you should be basing anything on speculation. Technology is constantly improving, so I wouldn't be surprised if a few years ago, BE could only adequately improve smaller stones, and today it can be used to improve larger stones, just because the state of diffusion technology as applied to gems has been advanced from just a few years ago.

I would trust JA for diamonds because their diamonds will come with a GIA report. Fine untreated rubies are more expensive per carat than white diamonds. Why does JA not offer the same level of transparency with colored gems with GIA reports, as they do with diamonds? I (and probably all other PS colored gem afficionados) would gladly pay 50% more than what they are selling their rubies at, if only they came with GIA reports stating heat only. They would make more money if their rubies were really heat only.

I refuse to believe that such a large company in the gem and jewelry business could be so naive or ignorant, as to sacrifice the markup they could be getting by simply offering a $75-$100 AGL or GIA report. The only logical conclusion is that they don't provide the same level of transparency because there is some degree of treatment that a super informed PS member would find undesirable, so they don't offer reports so as to continue to sell their stuff to uninformed buyers who don't know that treatment levels make ALL the difference when it comes to ruby durability/value and pricing.
 

Polyhex

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2003
Messages
550
I don't think you should be basing anything on speculation. Technology is constantly improving, so I wouldn't be surprised if a few years ago, BE could only adequately improve smaller stones, and today it can be used to improve larger stones, just because the state of diffusion technology as applied to gems has been advanced from just a few years ago.

I'm not sure I follow but I might have been confusing. BE treatment definitely works on sapphires of all sizes, and has from the beginning of it's 20+ year history. I have a larger BE pink/orange BE sapphire (4 cts) that I bought around 02-04 for I think $20.

I relayed that Fred Flintstone, who is retired trade, shared two points he believes to be true about BE treatment: #1 that it only produced those lovely pink/orange/red/yellow colors on Songean sapphires, and that #2 the supply of large good clarity Songean sapphires has dried up, which has limited the availability of them and driven up the price. I have no independent knowledge of #1, but #2 appears to be correct based on searching and seeing what reputable vendors want for large BE treated Songean sapphires.

Agree that treatment tech is advancing at all times, and that it seems shady for a major company like JA to sell sapphires and rubies without any documentation at all, as it should have been easy and inexpensive to get reports... if GIA or AGL are too expensive for the stone, they could have used close-to-source labs like Sri Lankan labs.
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
4,279
I'm not sure I follow but I might have been confusing. BE treatment definitely works on sapphires of all sizes, and has from the beginning of it's 20+ year history. I have a larger BE pink/orange BE sapphire (4 cts) that I bought around 02-04 for I think $20.

I relayed that Fred Flintstone, who is retired trade, shared two points he believes to be true about BE treatment: #1 that it only produced those lovely pink/orange/red/yellow colors on Songean sapphires, and that #2 the supply of large good clarity Songean sapphires has dried up, which has limited the availability of them and driven up the price. I have no independent knowledge of #1, but #2 appears to be correct based on searching and seeing what reputable vendors want for large BE treated Songean sapphires.

Agree that treatment tech is advancing at all times, and that it seems shady for a major company like JA to sell sapphires and rubies without any documentation at all, as it should have been easy and inexpensive to get reports... if GIA or AGL are too expensive for the stone, they could have used close-to-source labs like Sri Lankan labs.

Yes, while I'm not super informed about state of the art treatments like diffusion and wouldn't put money that there's BE diffusion, there's something fishy about the way they are not informing their buyers that rubies are some of the most heavily treated colored gems out there, and not offering the degree of transparency that even a company such as the Natural Sapphire Company, with all their OTHER deceptive practices, have disclosed about the level of treatment on their gems.
 

Polyhex

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2003
Messages
550
Yes, while I'm not super informed about state of the art treatments like diffusion and wouldn't put money that there's BE diffusion, there's something fishy about the way they are not informing their buyers that rubies are some of the most heavily treated colored gems out there, and not offering the degree of transparency that even a company such as the Natural Sapphire Company, with all their OTHER deceptive practices, have disclosed about the level of treatment on their gems.

100%.

Out of curiosity I asked an agent to email me what kind of heat treatment had been used on one of these rubies and here is the response so far.

JA - This is <Redacted> from James Allen reaching back out to you as requested. We unfortunately don't know exactly what heat treatment is used though is is normal for rubies to bring out the color. Please don't hesitate to reach back out to us if you have any more questions!

Me: How did you price it if you don't know whether the stone is traditional heat, heat with a light element like beryllium, heat with flux, etc? Those treatments drive a pricing difference of hundreds to thousands per ct in what a ruby or sapphire is worth.

Not very encouraging!!
 

Polyhex

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2003
Messages
550
I see hundreds of gems like this labeled as beryllium-diffused. Beryllium-treated and beryllium-diffused are the same thing (which intrinsically requires high heat).


This is almost certainly a lab grown stone, both based on the price, their other auctions, and I believe curved striae:

1611088204677.png

Here is another one they claim is natural BE and you can see the curved striae plain as day:


1611088127639.png
 

Polyhex

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 18, 2003
Messages
550
Yup, you are definitely correct!

Here are some examples of stones I personally think ARE natural and BE... they are either small, have problems, or if large and clean are moderately expensive... still a lot cheaper than traditional heat.

Has serious clarity problems and is on the smaller side: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-08ct-6-5...cncyO%2Fnk%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc

Clean but melee sized... lots of melee sized BE stones still available:

Nice larger stones but moderately expensive, few of these available:

I went down a rabbit hole researching this because of the very sentimental 4 ct pink/orange stone I bought as a poor college student many years ago for my mom. I find it hilarious it might be worth like 30-40X what I paid, though of course that is still not worth a lot!! :lol-2: It is getting reset right now for her, after she literally wore through the ring holding it.
 

Ariz

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3
Wow, great discussion! which frankly I am not understanding full well.

@lonysis I have requested to follow ceylonsapphiregems. Once approved I will look at what they have to offer.

@voce Beautiful ring and gorgeous ruby, thanks for sharing. JA offers that setting in oval center stone for the same price. I do have a follow-up question. What do you mean when you say:
I think that JA rubies must have a high degree of treatment at those prices, and so won't be as durable (if clarity filled) or color stable compared to heat only.
Would JA rubies (highly treated) not last and start to crack or fade in color in a few years?

@Cerulean I will be calling enhoerning soon to get more details on viewing that stone.

Thank you all for the abundant guidance. Much appreciated :)
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
4,279
Would JA rubies (highly treated) not last and start to crack or fade in color in a few years?
Yes, that's what happens with heavily treated stones. Depending on how often one wears it, you may be able to get a long use out of it, but it would hardly be considered appropriate for a lifetime of daily wear, which is usually what I assume to be the intended case (engagement ring) when someone new to PS asks for advice.
 

pokerface

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Messages
316
You can't say how stable the treatment is without knowing the treatment (which is unspecified). This is a great article on the different treatments that have been developed over the years. To OP: remember, the question is not only if the treatment is stable. I assume you also want to get good value for your money. There is tremendous difference in value (potentially thousands of dollars per carat) between a stone that has undergone low heat and one that has undergone one of the various forms of high heat treatments. You do not want to be paying low heat prices for a high heat stone.
 
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