***Ruby Help Needed***

[Autumn in New England]

I think there is more of an appreciation for top quality gems there too. Im generalizing but that’s my impression. Most people in the US want BIG!

*Sigh* I dream of going on a buying trip one of these days…PS ladies trip?

I'm in!

And, yes, Asian consumers have impeccable taste and high standards.

 

[Starstruck8]

I realize I'm 99% off topic here, but I was browsing JTV just to get a sense of their ruby pricing, and found this... the most perfect star ruby I've ever seen (and it has the price to match). But I'm far from a star connoisseur. @Starstruck8 What are your thoughts?

https://www.jtv.com/product/star-ruby-unheated-16-9x15-25mm-oval-cabochon-27-41ct/1CZL2A

I'm a star stone amateur (= lover), not a connoisseur - I don't have the money for that. Stones in that class are just fantasy for me.

The stone certainly looks good (as it should at the price!!), but the one photo is not nearly enough to tell. The broadening of the arms and the striations running across them are artifacts (caused by the stone being lit and photographed from close up). In reality the star is almost certainly sharper and brighter than in the photo. But how much sharper and brighter is hard to tell. Also, to properly judge translucency you would need an off-centre picture, to see how far the star seems to penetrate into the stone - in the best star stones, the arms seem to trail 'silver curtains' when viewed off-centre.

Short answer, stones like that are beyond my experience. But I would want more photos, taken by someone who understands star stones, to be convinced that it's as good as it's implicitly claimed to be.

 

[VividRed]

Me too lol. Anyway at the kind of prices you folks are quoting, can someone pls get this absolute bargain of 4 ct PB from my jeweler:

Asiatique fine jewellery Sg on Instagram: "4cts Pigeon No Heat Lovely pc, see see, take photo and return Cheaper then current Oct 2022 Cat A COE price International friends whom have no idea what’s COE is- in Singapore it’s like a tariff needed t

17 likes, 0 comments - asiatiquefinejewellerysg on October 22, 2022: "4cts Pigeon No Heat Lovely pc, see see, take photo and return Cheaper then current Oct 2022 Cat A COE price International friends who..."

www.instagram.com

Way way way less than $80k. Like way way less. And 4 carats. And pigeon blood.

@icy_jade but that’s not Burmese and not top color. It has a very noticeable orange secondary and the crystal is hazy. It’s just not my taste. And Pigeon’s Blood doesn’t mean much. Everyone has a different definition. I would only consider the PB trade name of SSEF or Gübelin. Or a 2.5/75 from AGL. all other labs are a bit too generous in my opinion, especially AIGS and GRS.

For the record, all my rubies are labelled PB by Lotus or GRS. And all are AGL certified with either 3.5/80 or 3/80, and I don’t consider them PB.

Also, who said I buy rubies for my wife lol? I might make them into jewerly one day, for her or my daughters, but for now they are mine, I am a collector

 

[VividRed]

I have super high standards for rubies as well, my friend. What others feel is top quality may not pass the bar for me. It's a curse, I tell ya!

I could not agree more, it is a curse

 

[Autumn in New England]

I'm a star stone amateur (= lover), not a connoisseur - I don't have the money for that. Stones in that class are just fantasy for me.

The stone certainly looks good (as it should at the price!!), but the one photo is not nearly enough to tell. The broadening of the arms and the striations running across them are artifacts (caused by the stone being lit and photographed from close up). In reality the star is almost certainly sharper and brighter than in the photo. But how much sharper and brighter is hard to tell. Also, to properly judge translucency you would need an off-centre picture, to see how far the star seems to penetrate into the stone - in the best star stones, the arms seem to trail 'silver curtains' when viewed off-centre.

Short answer, stones like that are beyond my experience. But I would want more photos, taken by someone who understands star stones, to be convinced that it's as good as it's implicitly claimed to be.

I've learned so much from you about stars and how to decipher quality. I also have a new appreciation for them thanks to your collection. It's interesting how such different factors (aside from color) play into this material as opposed to faceted crystals. (And don't sell yourself short... you have some incredible pieces!)

 

[Autumn in New England]

I could not agree more, it is a curse

Ruby is one of those stones where, if you're lucky, you find your HG and cling to it like grim death. At least, that's how it's been for me. Now I sort of sit back and watch the prices explode, like "thank goodness I got that one out of the way!" Plus, selfishly, it adds value to my stone (everyone's stones). You have the great pleasure of owning more than one, as do some other PSers... I'm quite sure I'll never own another.

For instance, look at this 3.01ct. Mozambique from JTV. Now I'm not saying they are a barometer for ruby pricing, but they're the world's largest gem retailer, so I'm using them as an example here. My stone is 3.11ct. and, IMO, exponentially finer, judging solely based upon their photo (I think you'll agree it appears to be Muglotto and likely lacking in fluor - that's a major ding in my book). While my ruby is the most I've ever spent on a single gem, I did not pay $80k. So when I see this type of pricing, the investor in me (not that I consider gems an investment) welcomes it. The buyer in me, naturally, resents it. Am I the only one who feels this way? It's a complicated emotion. lol

https://www.jtv.com/product/ruby-unheated-7-8x7-1mm-emerald-cut-3-01ct/14L2XA

And here is their entire catalogue...

https://www.jtv.com/search/?Ntt=ruby&type=products&N=4243964577&Ntk=All#!/search/_/N-4243964577?Nr=AND%28product.siteId%3AjtvStoreUS%2COR%28product.catalogId%3AmasterCatalog%29%29&Ns=sku.activePrice%7C1%7C%7Cproduct.limitedInventory%7C0&Ntt=ruby&type=products

Sorry for the rambling. Rubies are a passion of mine, clearly, and I know some of you can relate.

 

[VividRed]

Ruby is one of those stones where, if you're lucky, you find your HG and cling to it like grim death. At least, that's how it's been for me. Now I sort of sit back and watch the prices explode, like "thank goodness I got that one out of the way!" Plus, selfishly, it adds value to my stone (everyone's stones). You have the great pleasure of owning more than one, as do some other PSers... I'm quite sure I'll never own another.

For instance, look at this 3.01ct. Mozambique from JTV. Now I'm not saying they are a barometer for ruby pricing, but they're the world's largest gem retailer, so I'm using them as an example here. My stone is 3.11ct. and, IMO, exponentially finer, judging solely based upon their photo (I think you'll agree it appears to be Muglotto and likely lacking in fluor - that's a major ding in my book). While my ruby is the most I've ever spent on a single gem, I did not pay $80k. So when I see this type of pricing, the investor in me (not that I consider gems an investment) welcomes it. The buyer in me, naturally, resents it. Am I the only one who feels this way? It's a complicated emotion. lol

https://www.jtv.com/product/ruby-unheated-7-8x7-1mm-emerald-cut-3-01ct/14L2XA

And here is their entire catalogue...

https://www.jtv.com/search/?Ntt=ruby&type=products&N=4243964577&Ntk=All#!/search/_/N-4243964577?Nr=AND%28product.siteId%3AjtvStoreUS%2COR%28product.catalogId%3AmasterCatalog%29%29&Ns=sku.activePrice%7C1%7C%7Cproduct.limitedInventory%7C0&Ntt=ruby&type=products

Sorry for the rambling. Rubies are a passion of mine, clearly, and I know some of you can relate.

I can totally relate my take, as a novice collector, is that gemstone pricing is not a scientific matter. Origin premium is very real, and I would say absolutely unjustified in 99% of cases. Then there’s the hype, which is also very real. A 3ct Mozambican ruby of that quality (most like from Muglotto, I agree) priced at 80k is simply ridiculous. There are better stones (color, crystal, cut) in the same shape and size, for less money. But even at 10% of the price, I could never justify such a purchase with my own money. It surely lacks fluo, and looks dull.

Fine Burmese rubies, on the other hand, are another thing altogether. And when I say fine, I don’t mean good. Fine is 1 in 10’000, good is 1 in 100-200. The difference, for the keen eye, is enormous, but for many people it will not justify the price difference. And that’s OK, there is a market for almost everyone.

My whole point, and apologies for repeating it one more time, is that fine rubies are both rare and expensive. Fine Burmese rubies tend to be finer than fine rubies from anywhere else. Countering my argument by showing nice (not fine) rubies at lower price points is like comparing Porsche with Volkswagen. Volkswagen are great daily drivers, generally affordable. Porsche are engineering marvels that will satisfy the most demanding car purist (which I am not, but know a few and nothing will change their mind, lol).

Do fine rubies exist below the 10k/ct mark? Most likely, but good luck finding one that doesn’t have 1-2 additional flaws…

LOL, have a nice day everyone!
VR

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

I can totally relate my take, as a novice collector, is that gemstone pricing is not a scientific matter. Origin premium is very real, and I would say absolutely unjustified in 99% of cases. Then there’s the hype, which is also very real. A 3ct Mozambican ruby of that quality (most like from Muglotto, I agree) priced at 80k is simply ridiculous. There are better stones (color, crystal, cut) in the same shape and size, for less money. But even at 10% of the price, I could never justify such a purchase with my own money. It surely lacks fluo, and looks dull.

Fine Burmese rubies, on the other hand, are another thing altogether. And when I say fine, I don’t mean good. Fine is 1 in 10’000, good is 1 in 100-200. The difference, for the keen eye, is enormous, but for many people it will not justify the price difference. And that’s OK, there is a market for almost everyone.

My whole point, and apologies for repeating it one more time, is that fine rubies are both rare and expensive. Fine Burmese rubies tend to be finer than fine rubies from anywhere else. Countering my argument by showing nice (not fine) rubies at lower price points is like comparing Porsche with Volkswagen. Volkswagen are great daily drivers, generally affordable. Porsche are engineering marvels that will satisfy the most demanding car purist (which I am not, but know a few and nothing will change their mind, lol).

Do fine rubies exist below the 10k/ct mark? Most likely, but good luck finding one that doesn’t have 1-2 additional flaws…

LOL, have a nice day everyone!
VR

How do you define what is “fine”?

A Porsche comes from the factory at least. All you have here are some random vendors who can hock anything at any price they want.

I feel there is an element of gaslighting to this fine business.

Note to any newbies: Buy what you like, from whoever you like, at a price you can live with instead of people’s arbitrary descriptions of what is “fine”

 

[Autumn in New England]

I understand where you're coming from, @VividRed. And I especially agree about the fact that, when we start discussing this echelon of gems, even infinitesimal differences in quality, indiscernible to most, can make a huge difference in value. We sort of learn that the hard way as we navigate the gem collecting "waters." Which is why I've had to upgrade a time or two over the years!

 

[Autumn in New England]

Lucky for you, @mellowyellowgirl, you've got those dreamy rubellites to satisfy your red lust!!

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Lucky for you, @mellowyellowgirl, you've got those dreamy rubellites to satisfy your red lust!!

I was pretty neutral towards red until that one day when I almost bought that snot sized ruby and then went to rubellite. Just completely out of the blue.

I do enjoy it very much now though! Weird because I wear a lot of red clothes……….

I love yellows….yet only have one…….hmmm

 

[Autumn in New England]

I love yellows….yet only have one…….hmmm

Well you need to change this stat, or you will not be living up to your PS handle!

I'm a red lover going way back, but orange is my very favorite color. All shades!!

 

[Autumn in New England]

@mellowyellowgirl I was just thinking... if you are seriously in the market for another yellow gem, may I suggest danburite? I know you like them BOLD, but not exorbitantly priced. Danburite is untreated, gem grade material is a 7.5 mohs, no cleavage, good RI, and reasonably priced for large crystals. It really is an underrated gem, IMO. I actually had an entire thread devoted to this very topic. Anyway, I own an 8ct. and absolutely love it.

OP - Sorry for the momentary threadjack!

 

[VividRed]

How do you define what is “fine”?

A Porsche comes from the factory at least. All you have here are some random vendors who can hock anything at any price they want.

I feel there is an element of gaslighting to this fine business.

Note to any newbies: Buy what you like, from whoever you like, at a price you can live with instead of people’s arbitrary descriptions of what is “fine”

I believe there is enough literature on rubies to form a solid idea of what a fine ruby is. It cannot be described in a few sentences. There is also a subjective aspect to it, I’ll give you that. However, there is a market for fine rubies and it is not for the small wallets (a group I belong to) or the faint of heart. The problem is that many rubies as sold as fine, but really aren’t. That does not mean that truly fine rubies are priced wrongly

I said it in my previous post, there is a hype aspect to ruby pricing. I do not support it, by the way, but it is real.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

My take away from all this: There may be fine rubies (not disputing that) but the stuff being hocked at $15k per carat in this thread doesn't look particularly fine to me and no amount of gaslighting will change that.

 

[VividRed]

My take away from all this: There may be fine rubies (not disputing that) but the stuff being hocked at $15k per carat in this thread doesn't look particularly fine to me and no amount of gaslighting will change that.

I would agree with this

 

[icy_jade]

You are closer to the source in Asia @icy_jade and @mellowyellowgirl , and for multiple reasons, you have the privilege of being able to enjoy a greater variety of colored stones for less money than in other regions. What a nice situation for a gem hound to find themselves in! We aren’t all so lucky and I doubt any of us are so naive that we PREFER to spend more money…

In an analogous scenario, why would I make snide remarks at someone in the UK for having to spend more on a diamond simply because the market in their locale demands it? (And diamonds are MUCH easier IMO to buy blind.) But even still, not everyone is willing or able to deal with international transactions. In fact, many on the colored stone forum advise against it for first or very significant purchases.

I don’t just buy from Singapore sellers. I buy diamonds from US, preloved jewelry from Japan, stones from Sri Lanka and other closer to source sellers online.

No need to say that we are passing snide remarks when all we want to point out is that some sellers are expensive. If people are happy to buy from those sellers that‘s fine but no need to insist that we must agree that those prices are oh so reasonable.

Anyway have said what I wanted to say and am out of here. Not like I’m even saving any money for myself right. As mentioned from the beginning, am not here to get involved in an argument.

 

[maru8888777]

I've been following this thread with great interests. I don't have any rubies, and given their prices, who knows if I'll ever get one (I do love red and have some red spinels... one of good quality, the others just beautiful for my taste.) I appreciate that there are some standards for what are considered to be fine gems, and that there are collectors for whom these standards (unheated status, fine color, fluo, etc.) are non-negotiable. Still, given the prices, I am curious about what your advice is if someone's budget is not 10-15K/carat. What would you compromise on in order to find something more reasonably priced that is perhaps not fine, but beautiful? Or would you just suggest a spinel instead (although those prices are wild now too)?

 

[icy_jade]

@icy_jade but that’s not Burmese and not top color. It has a very noticeable orange secondary and the crystal is hazy. It’s just not my taste. And Pigeon’s Blood doesn’t mean much. Everyone has a different definition. I would only consider the PB trade name of SSEF or Gübelin. Or a 2.5/75 from AGL. all other labs are a bit too generous in my opinion, especially AIGS and GRS.

For the record, all my rubies are labelled PB by Lotus or GRS. And all are AGL certified with either 3.5/80 or 3/80, and I don’t consider them PB.

Of course it’s not burmese or crystal body at that price. But it’s a 4 ct and not “snot sized” by @mellowyellowgirl standard.

My jeweler doesn’t use a professional camera or color correct or enhance photos so more often then not his stones are ok irl. No need to judge his pics using professional standards. I think orange secondary you are seeing is due to orange lighting in his store (store lighting is so bad you cannot imagine - I always have to bring stuff out of his store to look under other lighting).

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

I think a great part of the difficulty comes from only seeing these stones virtually. Shopping online is inherently risky; so too can be buying from a trusted vendor--see @landscape's latest:
Newly arrived a 2.03ct Vietnamese ruby, AIGS VV red unheated pigeon blood ruby. It's a pity that it has a slight purple haze

There is no substitute for seeing IRL really good specimens over time. That's why so many in the trade, their families were, too. Plus, our color vision varies.

That's why, at the end of the day, you have to go with your gut, and buy what makes your heart sing.

The money part...well, I don't want to buy\pay the price for Burma and get, for example, Thai. I have a beautiful Thai that I love, but I paid accordingly.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this subject, and have learned alot. Thank you to all who have furthered my education, and OP for starting down this rabbit hole.

 

[CircularBrilliant]

I don’t just buy from Singapore sellers. I buy diamonds from US, preloved jewelry from Japan, stones from Sri Lanka and other closer to source sellers online.

No need to say that we are passing snide remarks when all we want to point out is that some sellers are expensive. If people are happy to buy from those sellers that‘s fine but no need to insist that we must agree that those prices are oh so reasonable.

Anyway have said what I wanted to say and am out of here. Not like I’m even saving any money for myself right. As mentioned from the beginning, am not here to get involved in an argument.

Are you comfortable sharing any of the online vendors you trust? My ruby hunt is still on. I checked with starlanka based on @ChaiK 's suggestion, but Suhail explained that none of their rubies have fluorescence, so that unfortunately didn't go anywhere. Any recs you have for other vendors accessible to the western market, would be much appreciated!

 

[E H]

@icy_jade but that’s not Burmese and not top color. It has a very noticeable orange secondary and the crystal is hazy. It’s just not my taste. And Pigeon’s Blood doesn’t mean much. Everyone has a different definition. I would only consider the PB trade name of SSEF or Gübelin. Or a 2.5/75 from AGL. all other labs are a bit too generous in my opinion, especially AIGS and GRS.

For the record, all my rubies are labelled PB by Lotus or GRS. And all are AGL certified with either 3.5/80 or 3/80, and I don’t consider them PB.

Also, who said I buy rubies for my wife lol? I might make them into jewerly one day, for her or my daughters, but for now they are mine, I am a collector

From my experience, the color of the ruby has to have AGL's color grade of 2.0 to get PB trade name by Gubelin and SSEF. Otherwise it will be a hit and miss. So, AGL's 2.5/75 red70 orange15 pink/purple15 is a gub&ssef's pigeon blood borderline. And ofc, those two lab also require the stone to be unheated, very clean (at least for ruby), almost no zoning is allowed, only vry fine silk is allowed, etc. They publish article about their PB and RB.

That being said, my sample size is quite small to be statistically significant. It only reach some low teen numbers. Gub and SSEF is a more common combination for high gem than AGL full report on top of gub/ssef cert

As for GRS, im completely agree with you. The grading is toooooo lax. All those garnet like mozambique ruby can get their PB. Even their not so cool platinum award. I wish gemfield will more mozambique ruby with strong fluorescence

 

[Rfisher]

I've been following this thread with great interests. I don't have any rubies, and given their prices, who knows if I'll ever get one (I do love red and have some red spinels... one of good quality, the others just beautiful for my taste.) I appreciate that there are some standards for what are considered to be fine gems, and that there are collectors for whom these standards (unheated status, fine color, fluo, etc.) are non-negotiable. Still, given the prices, I am curious about what your advice is if someone's budget is not 10-15K/carat. What would you compromise on in order to find something more reasonably priced that is perhaps not fine, but beautiful? Or would you just suggest a spinel instead (although those prices are wild now too)?

If you start your own thread asking for suggestions with a target budget - replies might be more apt to appear.
Although ‘reasonably priced’ and ‘more beautiful’ are so subjective - the replies may not really help you find out what you prefer for your $.

You state you already have red spinels. Going for a screaming Ruby-like spinel as an option will be just as elusive and pricey.

My advice for someone who wants to determine their own preferences/value for $ as opposed to taking a vendors word of what is ‘fine’?
Choose a store to travel to (off the top of my head but haven’t looked, and shamefully assuming you wish to stay in the USA) like Dover Jewelry, Burdeens, Wilson Estate that have multiple lab report rubies and a showroom to visit. Ask to see in different lighting. You’ll see plenty of price ranges, colors, silk vs scintillation, various cuts, degrees of inclusions and windows. AND you get to see IRL comparison to online photos. That’s huge. And helpful for further online shopping.
I’d think this is the easiest way to find out what my preferences are of what/how far I’d compromise on and what I wouldn’t.

I ended up purchasing multiple rubies in multiple varying prices and types from multiple vendors over multiple years to find out the same.
Travel $ or return $, I feel it’s money well spent in being satisfied with what you chose vs maybe always wondering what else is out there/what you are missing out on when someone else guides as ‘it’s fine’.
Flip side is you learn that absolutely no ruby in your budget will make you happy - but the itch is still scratched. You move on to something else.

Happy hunting!

 

[Rfisher]

Oh I forgot to add
I enjoy and appreciate the dialogue in this thread so much more than threads that have had someone popping in to say
‘That’s too pricey - I only paid xx 15 years ago - look for a better stone from a better vendor - bye’

 

[maru8888777]

If you start your own thread asking for suggestions with a target budget - replies might be more apt to appear.
Although ‘reasonably priced’ and ‘more beautiful’ are so subjective - the replies may not really help you find out what you prefer for your $.

You state you already have red spinels. Going for a screaming Ruby-like spinel as an option will be just as elusive and pricey.

My advice for someone who wants to determine their own preferences/value for $ as opposed to taking a vendors word of what is ‘fine’?
Choose a store to travel to (off the top of my head but haven’t looked, and shamefully assuming you wish to stay in the USA) like Dover Jewelry, Burdeens, Wilson Estate that have multiple lab report rubies and a showroom to visit. Ask to see in different lighting. You’ll see plenty of price ranges, colors, silk vs scintillation, various cuts, degrees of inclusions and windows. AND you get to see IRL comparison to online photos. That’s huge. And helpful for further online shopping.
I’d think this is the easiest way to find out what my preferences are of what/how far I’d compromise on and what I wouldn’t.

I ended up purchasing multiple rubies in multiple varying prices and types from multiple vendors over multiple years to find out the same.
Travel $ or return $, I feel it’s money well spent in being satisfied with what you chose vs maybe always wondering what else is out there/what you are missing out on when someone else guides as ‘it’s fine’.
Flip side is you learn that absolutely no ruby in your budget will make you happy - but the itch is still scratched. You move on to something else.

Happy hunting!

This is all very useful. I'm not on the market for a ruby (not yet, anyway!), but just wondered how to reach a middle ground in this conversation (if possible) about quality and price .