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Rose cut vs Asscher cut - price difference?

PierreBear

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Hi PS Friends,

I'm enjoying the look of this antique style ring but am trying to figure out if I like it because of the contrast of the rose cut in the center compared to the round brilliants in the halo or if it's just the two toned look in general. What I think I have figured out is that I like the shape of the diamond, which is an Asscher right (am I learning?!)? However, I'm trying to understand the pricing of the ring.

The ring details are the following:
3.00ct J/VS Rose cut Asscher diamond set in a handcrafted 18K oxidized yellow gold mounting. $34,000
Stone Weight3.00 ctCutRose CutColorJClarityVSTotal Carat Weight3.44 ctwSize6.00

If the setting is approximately $10,000 (not sure if this is true but I think a fair estimate), that would make the stone cost $24,000. Does this seem appropriate or is this just a markup when you don't source your own diamond?

I really don't have much exposure to large diamond prices. Can someone help explain if it was the same 3 ct J/VS Assher diamond but it was cut differently (non-rose like a traditional asscher), would this price be much more?

I appreciate the guidance and thanks for educating a newbie like me!

price.png
 

diamondseeker2006

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I'll say a couple of things. First, Singlestone is extremely high priced now. There is no way I would pay their prices when someone like Caysie van Bebber (through Love Affair Diamonds) can make the same thing, and she has top notch benches working with her. She isn't cheap either, but it will be a lot less than SS for sure. That setting probably would be around $5k or maybe 6 max. That is who I'd go to for an antique style setting. She recently made a gorgeous sapphire ring for me.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/heirloom-ec-sapphire-ring-by-caysie-van-bebber-cvb-and-lad.220793/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/heirloom-ec-sapphire-ring-by-caysie-van-bebber-cvb-and-lad.220793/[/URL]

Now, as for the diamond, that particular diamond would be hard to find. There just aren't many. But I know I have heard a couple of people here not totally satisfied with rose cuts because you can often see through to the finger and they just aren't brilliant at all. For an e-ring, I would personally choose an asscher instead. I might use rose cuts in a ring in a halo or something, though.

Here is an example of a gorgeous asscher. Now a rose cut will face up larger for the weight because it has a flat back. But the depth an pavilion facets are what makes a diamond sparkle. So really, this is more about what look you want. You just need to know what a large rose cut looks like in person before making that kind of investment.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/asscher-cut/3.02-carat-j-color-vs1-clarity-sku-467305
 

diamondseeker2006

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I do love the SS ring, though. It is gorgeous. If you tried a large one on and liked it, then sourcing a stone like that would be very, very hard. I have seen very few cut like that. To find that cut, size, with good color and clarity will be searching for a needle in a haystack. Otherwise you'd have to have one custom cut, and that would be pricey, too. You might have to buy that particular ring to get that stone, seriously. You'd be overpaying, but if that's what you love the most, sometimes overpaying is worth it.
 

PierreBear

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First off, your sapphire ring is beautiful! Wow, it sits gracefully on your finger. You really help shed some light but now it also generated some other things I need to consider!

1) I like the design of the ring but I think 2 ct will be big enough on a size 4 ring size. So I think I'll be sticking to that size stone. Hopefully the design/proportions will still look beautiful? I feel sometimes that some designs only look "stunning" on larger stones and want to be careful of it.
2) Would sourcing a 2 ct rose cut be difficult as you were mentioning? I'm not opposed to the asscher cut. If all things are equal would the 2 ct (spread of the rose) and a 2 ct asscher be less expensive? I still don't think I have this concept down. I think deep down, I just like the setting more than focusing on the center stone. I wish I could photoshop in asscher into that setting to see what it would like but I'm not that techy! Anyone have experience with that?! I feel like I can justify spending more on a center stone for something that "sparkles" and it makes more sense to get an asscher but there is something beautiful about the contrast between the rose and the halo diamond.
3) I was thinking that Singlestone was expensive but not sure how other vendors would feel about me saying "can you recreate this ring or do something like it" if I'm just trying to save on expenses. Perhaps it's an ethics question? Or perhaps everyone just borrows designs from each other?

Thank you, thank you for making this future purchase much more comfortable and less scary!
 

Niel

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I wouldn't pay that for that price.

I also personally wouldn't want a large rose cut. They don't perform like a more modern cut diamond.

Eta: I can shoop that for you one moment.
 

marymm

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OP - have you or the intended wearer seen rose-cut diamonds in person, particularly set in a ring? You probably already know this, but rose-cuts perform quite differently from any other diamond cut; and due to the cut when worn on the finger (in most ring settings) the wearer can usually see her finger right through the center of the diamond.
 

PierreBear

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Niel - You are amazing! Maybe you should be a ring designer and I can a piece from you? haha! I think I am one step closer and you helped me figure out that I like the setting and not the contrast of the rose cut. Now I can consider other cuts other than the rose... but this brings about more possibilities/questions.

MaryMM - I'm so glad that you are chiming in again. Thanks for not getting tired of my endless questions. I would like to try out a rose cut diamond in person but it seems like I haven't seen it in the traditional jewelry stores. The places online I figured out are single stone and jewels by grace.

When the general consensus is that singlestone is pricey, is it in the cost of the setting or the stone? I think I'm still confused on this part. Would it still make sense to get their setting and then just source your own stone? Or ask another vendor to use some of those same concepts if there would be someone willing? I can't tell if it's their craftsmanship that is stunning so if I ask someone else I could possibly be disappointed?

Thanks again for the thoughts!
 

PierreBear

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Niel - There are some similarities so thanks for exposing me to something else. I'm bad at visualizing but I think I would like the setting if it was two/tones and oxidized? I wouldn't want you to photoshop something as intricate as that ring but I think that's the heart of the issue. I already have a ring (modest round brilliant in a platinum setting) so I'm don't really want to go that route again I believe.

Is my understanding correct that only the asscher cut will give that octagonal type look? Not sure if that is why I like the SS setting or if it's really the two toned look.

Thanks!
 

Niel

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PierreBear|1459270957|4012624 said:
Niel - There are some similarities so thanks for exposing me to something else. I'm bad at visualizing but I think I would like the setting if it was two/tones and oxidized? I wouldn't want you to photoshop something as intricate as that ring but I think that's the heart of the issue. I already have a ring (modest round brilliant in a platinum setting) so I'm don't really want to go that route again I believe.

Is my understanding correct that only the asscher cut will give that octagonal type look? Not sure if that is why I like the SS setting or if it's really the two toned look.

Thanks!
Does it have to be oxidized? You can get that setting (I would imagine) in yellow gold, but I'm not so sure about the oxidization.
 

PierreBear

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I think that's one of the reasons I like the ring the most is because of the oxidation. Are there other vendors out there that do this same thing? I didn't realize it was a specialty and assumed it was a common "finish" on any metal. I appreciate the clarification.
 

PierreBear

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Niel - Why wouldn't you pay that price? Is it the setting or the diamond that is causing one to pay a premium?
 

diamondseeker2006

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Beautiful photoshop, Niel!

Yes, Caysie can do the oxidizing. She did that on one of her rings once. Let me say this. That design is not original in any way. Almost any antique design was done in the past or adapted from true antique rings. So yes, anyone can make that particular ring because there is nothing original about it!

SS charges WAY too much for the settings. Not sure about the mark-up on the stones.
 

diamondseeker2006

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Example of the oxidizing on white gold (CVB). Actually this setting is octagonal with a round center.

cvbcasa.jpg
 

Witos

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Hi, If you are dead set in a rose cut (I agree with everyone else here, that a centre stone rose cut is not for everyone and that you should see one by yourself before buying) I would advise to have the ring set with a closed back bezel plated in silver or white gold . Back in the day when these cuts were fashionable, (1715-1830's) the silver back helped to increase the reflection that could not be attained by proper faceting. This processes was known as foiling.

Maybe I'm wrong here and some of the experts can correct me, but as far as I know, you can't really oxidise gold alloys with content over 14k (especially yellow varieties). One historical reason people love gold is its immunity to oxidation. So "blackened gold" is most of the time painted or enamelled. Keep in mind that this finishing may need retouching further down the road.
 

Niel

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diamondseeker2006|1459280592|4012640 said:
Beautiful photoshop, Niel!

Yes, Caysie can do the oxidizing. She did that on one of her rings once. Let me say this. That design is not original in any way. Almost any antique design was done in the past or adapted from true antique rings. So yes, anyone can make that particular ring because there is nothing original about it!

SS charges WAY too much for the settings. Not sure about the mark-up on the stones.

The bottom is why I wouldn't pay that price. I find 10k a crazy amount for a setting if you're buying the stone at the same time. Like, if I already had the stone that would be one thing. But that's soo much of your budget.

Plus, I don't like the performance of rose cuts enough to spend that much. Bug that's a personal thing
 

liaerfbv

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I too would not pay the SS price for that. You could also get a quote from Brilliantly Engaged.
 

PierreBear

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It is really assuring that everyone is having the same comments about the rose cut. I am taking it off the table! Also just for the record, I don't know what the price of that setting is and just used 10k as an example to try to understand the rose cut better.

If the ring was an asscher, would it be worthy of that amount then?

Also is there a thead on intricate setting prices? It would be helpful to know what is on the low end versus high end.

Thank you all!
 

Niel

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PierreBear|1459302182|4012902 said:
It is really assuring that everyone is having the same comments about the rose cut. I am taking it off the table! Also just for the record, I don't know what the price of that setting is and just used 10k as an example to try to understand the rose cut better.

If the ring was an asscher, would it be worthy of that amount then?

Also is there a thead on intricate setting prices? It would be helpful to know what is on the low end versus high end.

Thank you all!
We have seen SS settings actually be 10k, so I think that's a very fair guess.

I'd expect you'll pay 4-6 k for the setting.
Looking around you can get a 3ct asschers for about 25-30k
 

arkieb1

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It might be worth considering that a Rose cut asscher is going to be MUCH larger than a standard asscher because rose cuts are almost flat, no substantial depth to them at all, asschers on the other hand have both high crowns and are deep so you will lose out size wise buying a normal asscher compared to the rose cut you have seen. And no a 2 carat asscher is not going to be anywhere near as big as 2 carat rose cut.... but a nice well cut asscher will have much more fire and sparkle.

I like a halo at SS for a smaller centre stone and its nearly $9000USD so I can well imagine from there this setting is $10 000 or more.
 

PierreBear

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Thanks everyone! I think I have a new question that I'll start in a thread regarding custom rings and setting versus stone budgets. I think that will be the next step in understanding this project.

I appreciate the point about the spread of a rose cut versus traditional asscher cut as well. I think with the halo, the finger covered will already be plenty big enough for my personal taste!
 

PierreBear

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Diamondseeker - Do you have advice on working with Caysie? You mentioned going through Love Affairs Diamonds but also on PS browsing saw that she also has an etsy account as well. Thanks!
 

kenny

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Rose cuts window.
Unlike 'regular' diamond cuts rose cuts do not reflect light back to your eyes.
This happens because they are too shallow to make the light bounce off the bottom and reflect back out the top.
Light just goes right through them like a window.

That means when you look at the diamond you'll see your finger.
To prevent this jewelers often put reflective metal under a rose cut.
But then you have the challenge of keeping it clean, so you have to be sure to tell the jeweler to leave enough space between the bottom of the diamond and the metal plate.
Many people feel that space, especially if it is wide enough to get a brush into, looks unattractive.

Do you really want to pay $30,000 to so you can look down at the back side of a dirty window that is difficult, or perhaps impossible, to keep clean?
Do you really want to clean it every day?

Do you really want to pay diamond's high price for a diamond that is unable to deliver the fire/color/sparkle that diamond is uniquely capable of providing?

If, after learning all this you still want a rose cut for its attractive qualities, then go for it and fully enjoy it.
You don't have to explain or justify ... Just have your eyes wide open about the issues associated with rose cuts.
 

PierreBear

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Kenny - Thanks for sharing your wisdom. I was actually looking at some of your other posts and glad to know that there are so many technical people on this forum.

May I ask another question since you brought up a new thought? You mentioned that a rose cut could give an appearance of an unclean window if it is not maintained well. Since step cuts (sorry I'm still learning), which I believe are emeralds or asschers, do not have a lot of facets, would it be true for those type of cuts as well? I think they are both beautiful types of cuts and am considering it for the future purchase. However, without the facets sometimes I feel like it looks more like a crystal than a diamond because of the lack of facets. (No offense intended to those who own those type of cuts, I am just learning and haven't owned a type like it!)
 

Niel

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PierreBear|1459364104|4013244 said:
Kenny - Thanks for sharing your wisdom. I was actually looking at some of your other posts and glad to know that there are so many technical people on this forum.

May I ask another question since you brought up a new thought? You mentioned that a rose cut could give an appearance of an unclean window if it is not maintained well. Since step cuts (sorry I'm still learning), which I believe are emeralds or asschers, do not have a lot of facets, would it be true for those type of cuts as well? I think they are both beautiful types of cuts and am considering it for the future purchase. However, without the facets sometimes I feel like it looks more like a crystal than a diamond because of the lack of facets. (No offense intended to those who own those type of cuts, I am just learning and haven't owned a type like it!)

No. I really suggest you go see some in person.
 

kenny

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PierreBear|1459364104|4013244 said:
Kenny - Thanks for sharing your wisdom. I was actually looking at some of your other posts and glad to know that there are so many technical people on this forum.

May I ask another question since you brought up a new thought? You mentioned that a rose cut could give an appearance of an unclean window if it is not maintained well. Since step cuts (sorry I'm still learning), which I believe are emeralds or asschers, do not have a lot of facets, would it be true for those type of cuts as well? I think they are both beautiful types of cuts and am considering it for the future purchase. However, without the facets sometimes I feel like it looks more like a crystal than a diamond because of the lack of facets. (No offense intended to those who own those type of cuts, I am just learning and haven't owned a type like it!)
In a word, no.
Sure any dirty diamond will look dirty and worse.
But the massive difference between rose and asscher is the windowing.
Yes the worse an asscher is cut the more it may window, in certain facets, at certain angles ... but nothing like a rose cut which is ALWAYS mostly windowing.
Though if the light strikes it just right you can get a bit of a rainbow dispersion like with the edge of a beveled window or mirror.

That said, dirt on the pavilion, bottom of any regular-cut (not rose) diamond does something surprising.
Even though light rays traveling in the diamond and striking the pavilion still bounce back into the diamond, the angle at which they reflect is changed by the gunk on the pavilion.
Why? Because you no longer have a diamond to air interface; you have a diamond to gunk interface.
This sends the light in the wrong direction, not the direction called for by the cut 'recipe'.
Solution: Keep Your Diamond Clean!

When a ray of light is traveling in a diamond, the angle it is reflected when it reaches the edge of a diamond is a function of the properties of two things, diamond and air.
Water (a clean diamond under water) will also cause that light to reflect at a different angle from the desired angle.
Other liquids, with a different index of refraction, will vary the angle too.

With well-cut diamonds the angles of the facets are precisely controlled to precisely control the light for the best light performance.
Dirt not only reduces the strength of some of the light and blurs it, dirt also makes the light performance itself worse by sending light rays in the wrong direction.


Also, since asschers and emerald cuts have larger windows they don't conceal inclusions and dirt as well as cuts with smaller windows and more 'virtual' facets.
 
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