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Roe v. Wade.

Calliecake

Ideal_Rock
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It’s insanity to consider a frozen embryo a person. Birth control will be next on their agenda of things to be done away with. I also wouldn’t be surprised if they tried to shut down fertility clinics.

This is just my opinion but I can’t see them stopping until abortion being illegal is law of the land. They have always had their sights set on this. States rights was just the first step.
 

Lookinagain

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It’s insanity to consider a frozen embryo a person. Birth control will be next on their agenda of things to be done away with. I also wouldn’t be surprised if they tried to shut down fertility clinics.

This is just my opinion but I can’t see them stopping until abortion being illegal is law of the land. They have always had their sights set on this. States rights was just the first step.

It's all very scary to me. I'd say more, but it probably isn't allowed.
 

Calliecake

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@Lookinagain, I asked Ella to delete my post. I don’t want to cross any lines.
 

missy

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"
The Morning

February 22, 2024​
Good morning. Today, my colleague Pam Belluck explains an aggressive and creative new strategy that some blue states are using to protect abortion access in red states. — David Leonhardt

Abortion from afar​

Doctors in a handful of blue states have found a way to provide abortions to women in red states where it is banned or restricted. They are doing it with a new tool: laws that protect them from prosecutors elsewhere.

These telemedicine shield laws block officials in red states who might prosecute or sue the abortion providers in Massachusetts, New York, California, Vermont, Colorado and Washington State. Those states won’t extradite doctors. They won’t turn over records. They won’t aid in any investigation. It’s a sharp break from the usual pattern of interstate cooperation, as I report in a news story today.

I’ve been covering abortion for over a decade. Since the Supreme Court’s Dobbs decision overturned Roe v. Wade and triggered a wave of bans in conservative states, abortion rights advocates have worked to preserve access. They’ve used mobile clinics across the border from red states — and funds that cover the cost of travel to places where abortion is legal. In today’s newsletter, I’ll talk about one of the newest approaches.

A new tool​

The providers started mailing abortion pills under the shield laws just last summer. But their reach has surprised even some advocates. They’ve already prescribed and mailed abortion pills to tens of thousands of women in Texas, Idaho and other places that banned abortion after the high court’s 2022 decision. Patients find them online and fill out forms about their medical history. Providers then evaluate whether patients are eligible. They can be up to 12 weeks’ pregnant and must have no disqualifying medical issues like an ectopic pregnancy or a blood-clotting disorder.

Being able to receive abortion medication at their homes by mail saves patients the time, money and difficulty of traveling to a state where abortion is legal. It also avoids the weekslong wait for pills ordered from overseas. Shield law services charge $150 or $250, but they allow poorer patients to pay less or even nothing.

Abortion opponents in conservative states are outraged. The shield laws are “really trying to completely sabotage the governing efforts of their neighboring states,” said John Seago, the president of Texas Right to Life. “It can’t stand, and we can’t be content with this new development.”

The practice has not yet been challenged in court, but observers think it’s only a matter of time. Law enforcement officials in anti-abortion states may be waiting for a case they think will be persuasive. A senior government official in a conservative state told me about one possible strategy: State officials could first file charges or a complaint against a provider in a blue state. Then, when that state refused to cooperate, a red state could sue the shield-law state itself, claiming that the Constitution’s full faith and credit clause prevents one state from interfering with another’s laws.

States with abortion bans will also watch a lawsuit the Supreme Court will hear next month, in which opponents of abortion have sued the Food and Drug Administration to try to bar abortion pills. (My colleague Emily Bazelon has written for The Morning about how much of the abortion struggle now revolves around pills.) If the justices uphold an appeals court ruling, patients might need in-person doctor visits to obtain the medications.

Doctors tread cautiously​

Regardless of the court’s decision in that case, some shield-law providers say they intend to find a way to continue.

Still, they are taking precautions. Most shield-law providers have decided not to travel to states with abortion bans, and some have established trusts to protect their assets from civil suits. Some identify themselves publicly, but others fly under the radar.

I visited one Massachusetts operation in a tiny office behind an unmarked door and watched as Carol, a reproductive health consultant who asked to be identified by her middle name, carefully packaged the two abortion medications, mifepristone and misoprostol. She put them into plain envelopes lined with bubble wrapping so they don’t rattle when they are mailed to patients. I accompanied her to the post office, where she mailed dozens of envelopes across the country.

“We’re a free country,” said Lauren Jacobson, a nurse practitioner at the Massachusetts clinic who sometimes writes 50 prescriptions a day. “So let’s put that to test. Here we are and we’re not going to be intimidated, and we have our states backing us.”

For more​

  • A major Alabama health system paused most I.V.F. procedures after the state’s Supreme Court ruled that frozen embryos are children, citing antiabortion language in the state constitution.
"
 

Matata

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laws that protect them from prosecutors elsewhere.

It's good to know that docs are protected by these laws but the women are not. If there are complications from the pills and the women need immediate medical assistance, they may face prosecution if the doc suspects they used abortion pills or if the medication shows up in blood tests.
 

Lookinagain

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It's good to know that docs are protected by these laws but the women are not. If there are complications from the pills and the women need immediate medical assistance, they may face prosecution if the doc suspects they used abortion pills or if the medication shows up in blood tests.

That's a good point, albeit unfortunate and infuriating.
 

missy

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It's good to know that docs are protected by these laws but the women are not. If there are complications from the pills and the women need immediate medical assistance, they may face prosecution if the doc suspects they used abortion pills or if the medication shows up in blood tests.

We are living in the worst episode of "Dark Mirror" ever. No one will convince me otherwise.
Everything is upside down turned around and wrong is right and right is wrong. I am glad I am closer to the end of my life than the beginning. That is the truth
 

Lookinagain

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We are living in the worst episode of "Dark Mirror" ever. No one will convince me otherwise.
Everything is upside down turned around and wrong is right and right is wrong. I am glad I am closer to the end of my life than the beginning. That is the truth

Yes, I've said many times I'm glad I'm old and not young. It does seem that many things are turned upside down these days, at least in the the mindset that I feel is normal. Seems we go backwards and not forward on many things
 

Calliecake

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Add this to the list of disturbing things happening in this country.

There is a bill created in Oklahoma that if passed would require a state database of women who have had abortions. Each woman who had an abortion would have a unique identification number assigned them. The database would include detailing the reason for the abortion, gestation at the time of the abortion and how many abortions the woman has had. All this information could be released to the authorities by a court order. The bill would also require a doctor’s written justification (under oath) detailing why the doctor felt the abortion was necessary.

Oklahoma has failed to state what constitutes a medical emergency requiring an abortion.

Why would a state with the strictest abortion laws in the country need this database if not to criminalize or penalize woman who have had abortions?
 

Lookinagain

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Add this to the list of disturbing things happening in this country.

There is a bill created in Oklahoma that if passed would require a state database of women who have had abortions. Each woman who had an abortion would have a unique identification number assigned them. The database would include detailing the reason for the abortion, gestation at the time of the abortion and how many abortions the woman has had. All this information could be released to the authorities by a court order. The bill would also require a doctor’s written justification (under oath) detailing why the doctor felt the abortion was necessary.

Oklahoma has failed to state what constitutes a medical emergency requiring an abortion.

Why would a state with the strictest abortion laws in the country need this database if not to criminalize or penalize woman who have had abortions?

This sounds like something out of the Twilight Zone. How can this be legal? It certainly shouldn't be in the U. S. that I grew up in. My heart breaks when I read things like this.
 

Snowdrop13

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Add this to the list of disturbing things happening in this country.

There is a bill created in Oklahoma that if passed would require a state database of women who have had abortions. Each woman who had an abortion would have a unique identification number assigned them. The database would include detailing the reason for the abortion, gestation at the time of the abortion and how many abortions the woman has had. All this information could be released to the authorities by a court order. The bill would also require a doctor’s written justification (under oath) detailing why the doctor felt the abortion was necessary.

Oklahoma has failed to state what constitutes a medical emergency requiring an abortion.

Why would a state with the strictest abortion laws in the country need this database if not to criminalize or penalize woman who have had abortions?

What happened to patient confidentiality? I would have expected that to make this impossible.
 

Daisys and Diamonds

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you probably all know this case but it has been in our news today
 

Gloria27

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...And these zygotes have full rights and protections, before potentially settling on being female, that is.

This is madness.

Sorry, you lost me.
What do you mean by settling?
 

ItsMainelyYou

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Sorry, you lost me.
What do you mean by settling?

All mammalian embryos are female and have indeterminate gonads until androgen levels and chromosome expression dictate otherwise.
 

missy

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"

Idaho Sees Exodus of Obstetricians After Abortion Ban​

— State lost 22% of its practicing obstetricians over a 15-month period​

by Michael DePeau-Wilson, Enterprise & Investigative Writer, MedPage Today February 23, 2024

 A photo of a Welcome to IDAHO sign on the side of a road.

Idaho has been losing practicing obstetricians since its abortion ban took effect in August 2022, according to a new reportopens in a new tab or window by the Idaho Physician Well-Being Action Collaborative (IPWAC).
The report showed that 22% of the practicing obstetricians in Idaho stopped practicing or left the state during a 15-month period from August 2022 to November 2023. In total, the number of obstetricians practicing in the state -- with a population of approximately 960,000 women -- dropped from 268 to 210 during that period.

The report also noted that two hospital obstetric programs closed during this period, while two other programs are struggling to remain open due to problems recruiting obstetricians, including one that is expected to close on April 1.
Melissa Simon, MD, MPH, an ob/gyn at Northwestern Medicine in Chicago, told MedPage Today that the findings in this report are not unexpected given the environment created by the state's abortion ban.
"It's not surprising that providers are specifically wanting to move out of the state that is creating laws that are incongruent with sound, evidence-based medical care," she said.
Policymakers should fully consider the perspective of physicians when drafting laws that affect medical practice, said Simon, adding that doctors across all specialties are trained and tested to provide a level of care that is approved through board certification. It is simply not good medical practice when laws are passed that contradict or impede a physician's medical training and certification, she said.

"Why should we continue to practice in a state where we could go to jail for doing the right thing?" she said.
On the patient side, Simon noted that this trend will especially affect pregnant patients who are experiencing complications or facing complex labor and deliveries.
"Many of us are trained in the care of high-risk pregnancies," she explained. "So when you lose obstetricians, you lose the ability to care for people who ... have high-risk pregnancies [and] you lose the ability to have access to emergency obstetric care, including an emergency cesarean section."
And when patients do have access to that level of care, she added, they likely have to travel 50 to 100 miles just to get to a birthing center or hospital with a labor and delivery unit.

"That is a huge issue, especially given that more and more women who are pregnant are having other complications," she said.

Idaho's abortion ban went into effect after the U.S. Supreme Court overturnedopens in a new tab or window Roe v. Wade due to two trigger laws the state passed in 2020 and 2021opens in a new tab or window. These laws made it a felony for any person to provide an abortion without exceptions. In July 2023, the Idaho legislature replaced those laws with another ban that made some exceptions for abortion, including when the fetus is dead, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights.
Similar bans have been enacted in more than a dozen statesopens in a new tab or window since the Supreme Court's 2022 decision.
A similar reportopens in a new tab or window from the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) showed that fewer medical students, especially those interested in obstetrics, were choosing residency programs in states with abortion bans. The report concluded that this trend would lead to a provider shortage in those states.
The IPWAC report highlighted where the remaining obstetricians are still practicing in Idaho, noting that 85% of obstetricians are practicing in the state's seven most populous counties, where the total number of providers declined by nearly 50 after the abortion ban. In addition to the loss of providers in those areas, the report showed that only 22 of the 44 counties in Idaho have access to any practicing obstetrician. Notably, nearly all of those counties lost an obstetrician during the observed 15-month period.

Simon emphasized that Idaho is likely not an exception when it comes to obstetricians leaving states with abortion bans.
"It's not the only state. It just happens to be the state where there are data," she said. "If we did the studies, we probably would see similar patterns in other states as well."

  • Michael DePeau-Wilson is a reporter on MedPage Today’s enterprise & investigative team. He covers psychiatry, long covid, and infectious diseases, among other relevant U.S. clinical news

  • "
 

Gloria27

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All mammalian embryos are female and have indeterminate gonads until androgen levels and chromosome expression dictate otherwise.

Ok, now I understand what you meant, thanks!

We know the chromosome from the sperm determines the sex at conception so I was a bit confused by why you would say they are females, but it's the development stage you were talking about.
 

Matata

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"Why should we continue to practice in a state where we could go to jail for doing the right thing?" she said.
On the patient side, Simon noted that this trend will especially affect pregnant patients who are experiencing complications or facing complex labor and deliveries.

Overturning Roe v Wade is analogous to tossing a pebble in a pond. Pro-lifers (oh the irony) didn't plan for the rippling consequences of achieving their goal.
 

Calliecake

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Overturning Roe v Wade is analogous to tossing a pebble in a pond. Pro-lifers (oh the irony) didn't plan for the rippling consequences of achieving their goal.

This + a billion. (Sorry @canuk-gal for stealing your phrase)

Stell cell research will also be affected.

Other states are bound to jump on the bandwagon with Alabama regarding IVF. We saw how quickly it happen with abortion rulings. I read an article yesterday where woman undergoing fertility treatments are trying to have their zygotes transported from the state they live in to a state they feel will not be impacted. Look how quickly the Alabama ruling stopped a hospital and fertility clinics from performing care. If I lived in Oklahoma, Texas or multiple other states that may decide to do what Alabama has done and I was going thru the IVF process, I would be doing everything possible to have these procedures done in a state I felt my reproductive rights were safe. Many IVF’s don’t take. Will women be held liable for their embryos not implanting?

Also included in this Oklahoma Bill are restrictions on birth control pills, morning after pills and IUD’s. Another added gem!

Banning and greatly restricting abortion (6 week limits) was a war on woman with the cruelty being the point. These state abortion laws were always going to affect poor women. Wealthy woman were still going to have access to a safe and legal abortion. IVF affects wealthy women. It’s all about controlling women.

Meanwhile children are being gunned down in school rooms and a nationwide gun registry is a stretch too far for many.

I apologize for the rant.
 

Matata

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Also included in this Oklahoma Bill are restrictions on birth control pills, morning after pills and IUD’s. Another added gem!

The right to contraception is protected in the US Constitution. I can imagine the havoc that would happen if the SCOTUS overturned Griswold v Connecticut and Eisenstadt v Baird.
 

RMOO

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The right to contraception is protected in the US Constitution. I can imagine the havoc that would happen if the SCOTUS overturned Griswold v Connecticut and Eisenstadt v Baird.

Well, seeing that the far right considers all artificial contraception to be forms of abortion, I don't think that it is crazy to think that they may try to overturn them. I mean, weren't we all told not to worry because Roe v. Wade was settled law, based on the same right to privacy?

Edited to clarify the forms of contraception
 

monarch64

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@Matata I saw this story yesterday and was so disgusted and angry, I couldn't even finish reading it! A little blob that might not even develop/implant has rights and is a person????? Make it make sense! Pretty soon, they're going to be coming for ovaries - or anything involved in baby making. I am SO freaking angry, but also thankful I don't live in one of these backasswards states. :x2

Everything and everyone EXCEPT WOMEN is a person, I guess.
 

ItsMainelyYou

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* once again, just another helpful bit of illustration.

All for something that was already on the decline, happening earlier and was safer with medical advancements. Access is key to safety.

These Draconian and ignorant roadblocks will lead to disease and death in ways that many voters/lawmakers never imagined or understand. They have no idea what the health ramifications will be and the people who vote for things like this and don't know the full picture will suffer those losses.
1708812691939.png

Stupidity is going to continue to kill.
 

Matata

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out here in the rest of the western world we watch on in shock and horror and wonder why ? why ? why ? why ? why ? why ? why ? why ? why ?

There's a bunch here in the US who wonder the same thing.
 

Bonfire

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The right to contraception is protected in the US Constitution. I can imagine the havoc that would happen if the SCOTUS overturned Griswold v Connecticut and Eisenstadt v Baird.

I have ZERO confidence in SCOTUS at this point. Follow the Constitution? Naw, not if you can misinterpret it and rewrite it.
 

Matata

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I have ZERO confidence in SCOTUS at this point. Follow the Constitution? Naw, not if you can misinterpret it and rewrite it.

I've no confidence in them either but I have to hope that any attempt to overturn either of those decisions would lead to a massive rebellion at least on the part of a huge number of women.
 

Lookinagain

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I had a ruptured ectopic pregnancy many years ago. Seems like in some places I'd be dead now if they thought it was potentially viable and my doctor would have been afraid to help me. I'm so grateful that I live where I do. Way beyond childbearing, but I have a daughter.
 
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