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Reservations about buying diamond on the internet

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hlsgrad

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Messages
7
Hello everyone. I came across this site a few days ago and think it is wonderful! I have definitely learned a lot and will send my boyfriend here as well as we shop for engagement rings. My question pertains to the safety of buying a ring over the interent. While we have been to many jewelry stores and know the type of diamond I want, he is concerned about buying over the internet as he can''t actually "see" the diamond as he would in the jewelry store (even though the prices they have shown us at the stores have been outrageous, often with poor quality). While I am not particular fearful of online purchases, it is not my money and I don''t want to pressure him into making a transaction that he is uncomfortable with. But I also don''t want him wasting his money! Any advice is appreciated, such as what the difference in price is likely to be, and what specs are not really captured without a live purchase.

By the way, the diamonds we have been pricing and have found to be a great balance are are:
Round, Ideal cut, "F" color, VVS1-VS1, with very good symmetry/polish, and at least 1.25 carats.
 

Spyder

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2003
Messages
50
Some internet vendors will post more photos and microscopic analyses of the diamond under a variety of scopes that gives you far more information about the diamond than just looking at it with your own eyes in artificially bright jewelry store lighting.

Does the jewelry store allow you to see all the diamond's inclusions under a 40x microscope with darkfield illumination?
 

hlsgrad

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Messages
7
Thanks for the reply. The jewelers we have visited have shown us the diamond under 10X magnification, but at the time we really didn't know what we were looking for (of course, they knew that). Not to mention that the few jewelers who purported to educate us before offering the sales pitch never mentioned half of the variables I learned about on this site - only the 4C's. (I am in Boston and even spent time in the jewelry exchange building, which is supposedly the place to go here, but we really weren't impressed. But at the same time my boyfriend is very nervous about buying a diamond over the internet that he can't physically see or touch and actually prefers to buy one from a live person, even though he doesn't completely trust them)
 

Adrienne

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2003
Messages
120
Hi Hlsgrad -

I had concerns about buying a diamond online - but after doing a bunch of reading on this forum (and the tutorial) I am feeling very confident about it.

Something to consider - if you go with a reputable company (again, reading this forum will help you greatly in deciding what companies are good - Good Old Gold, SuperbCert, NiceIce, Whiteflash are among the good ones) there will be a decent return policy ranging from 7 days to 30 days depending on which company you choose.

This is great - I have bought a diamond from GoodOldGold and I will have 30 days from the day I receive it to change my mind. During the 30 days I can see how it looks in various lighting conditions, have it appraised, and take it to all the stores I want to compare against local store diamonds. If I decide within my refund period that I don't like it, or that I can find a better deal closer to home, I can send it back and they refund the money. The only thing I lose is the shipping costs.

So while I was skeptical about the online purchase I have actually decided that online is the only way to buy a diamond. Visit some of their websites and see the information you receive on each diamond, it's incredible, and you end up knowing a heck of a lot more about the diamond you buy.
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
Buying on the internet affords consumers with some very good prices, but you lose the ability to see the stone.

A way around this is to have the stone checked out by an expert... This provides you with additiional information and confirmation of the representation of the sellers.

Many sellers have no problem sending a stone to an appraiser, without you paying up front.

No doubt, this is the most prudent way to make an internet purchase. If you feel uncomforatable with this, then the best alternative is to buy from a fine local jeweler, and pay the difference.

Rockdoc
 

diane5006

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 8, 2003
Messages
652
Hi HLS...I am in Boston too (well north of Boston actually)...I know how you feel I was originally iffy about doing the on-line thing but feel more comforatbel now...I did do the rounds in Downtown Boston...

I personally like hands on...I am in the process on looking at stones with Jonathan at Good Old Gold...and am planning a road trip next weekend...they are in Long Island...I would feel very comfortable buyin from they on-line especially since he does such a thorough testing of all of his stones and he has his own inventory...and a good return policy

You might contemplate a road trip yourself...or e-mail Jonathan through his website and ask him your questions

OH the reeason I am going there is because I am looking at a fancy shape stone...and not a round...so I want to make sure sure...

Best of Luck

diane
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,441
Hi HLSGrad!


I was a "got to see it in person" type customer before I found Price Scope. I read the Tutorial and I lurked the forum. I learned about the importance of CUT. I spent some time looking at and pricing diamonds locally. Then I knew the only way to get near what I wanted was on-line.

I searched and searched using the PS search engine and wasn't sure of myself. I saw what I thought were the same diamonds listed by several vendors. Then I tried contacting a couple vendors. Coincidentally, they both offered me the same diamonds in the lists they prepared. That's when I knew the diamonds I'd been seeing were the same. There's a Mulitple Listing of diamonds vendors use to post diamonds for sale. After having both vendors chase the same broker for a couple of days only to get an emailed copy of a fuzzy Cert, I decided to go with a vendor who had diamonds "on hand". I started looking at Nice Ice, Good Old Gold, SuperbCert, and White Flash.

After comparing the sites, I found a diamond I liked, in my price range. I contacted Lesley Harris at White Flash. No high pressure sales tactics. Just a quote and "Let me know when you are ready." After I decided to go with WF, Brian Gavin, the cutter at WF, suggested a second diamond for me. I previewed both diamonds that I paid for up front. Thanks to Brian Gavin, I had the horrible task
of choosing between 2 absolutely magnificent diamonds. I finally selected one to keep and shipped both diamonds back to White Flash. The jewelers at WF custom made a bezel pendant necklace for me and I received a prompt refund on the diamond I did not purchase. GREAT customer service, a GORGEOUS pendant necklace, and had a WONDERFUL diamond buying experience was had from WHITE FLASH.



Check out the picture folder in the Show me the Ring forum. Many of those diamonds were purchased from Price Scope vendors.


Good Luck with your search and let us know how it all comes out!
 

stonecold

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Messages
16
Hi HLS grad-

I too am in Boston (and also a lawyer, alum from across the River). I think one would have to be just short of crazy to buy a diamond on the internet. At the end of the day, it's all about what the diamond looks like to you. Granted there is some objectivity with respect to cut proportions - e.g. in theory, certain cut specs determine brilliance, fire, overall light return, etc., but in the end the right stone is only right if it looks beautiful to your eye. What good will a diamond be to you if, say, it reads .5 on the Holloway Cut Adviser, is an AGS "O" Ideal cut, but just doesn't look right to you?

Being a lawnerd, I've done about 80-100 hours of research on diamonds from every imaginable source. I found a reputable jeweler in Boston whom was recommended to me by friends. I took my time and looked at dozens of theoretically comparable stones. Eventually, after some narrowing down, the same stone kept catching my eye time and again. I set it aside and did further research, this time specific to that stone and its characteristics. I have found that not only am I getting a reasonable price, but "my" diamond fits the more modern definition of ideal cut. That is, it registers 1.3 on the HCA ("excellent," or "Ideal" by Garry Holloway's standards), and fits the GIA's definition of a Class 1 cut based on that lab's latest cut studies.

Granted, a good internet dealer will give you a money back guarantee, and you could probably set up an independent inspection of some sort. But why bother with that if in the end the stone just doesn't so it for you visually? Personally, I think the overall experience of a local, in-person jeweler was well worth it. My jeweler made a point to keep in touch with me, even calling me when he came across new stones that he thought I might like (and even when those stones were thousands less, I might add, proving he had no intention of putting the hard sell on me).

Of course, I don't know what your budget is, or what you're looking for. For what it's worth, I finally chose a 1.63 carat, D color, SI1 (minute feather at outer edge of table, and small crystal at outer most opposite edgeof table - which brings me to another point - while on the internet you can view a cert. showing location of inclusions, I believe it's best to be able to view them yourself to see how those inclusions really look under 10x, etc.). Price is $12,900 (plus $400 for platinum cathedral type band, custom made). In my opinion, the stone is breathtaking and given the amount of time I spent comparing it visually to other stones, I cannot imagine having had to choose a diamond blind.

Drop a line if you want some advice - I realize I am a "rough rock," but I consider myself a pretty well informed buyer who obviously has been through the process - and in the same town, no less. Best of luck!

Stonecold
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,441
Well, StoneCold, I guess lots of us here are "just short of crazy." Or are we???


I'm not in Boston, but I couldn't even come close to a price match locally. I bought a SUPER IDEAL, A CUT ABOVE, HEARTS and ARROWS from White Flash. I paid less than half the price Helzberg's wanted for a "similar" (same carat weight, same color, same clarity) H&A diamond from their Master Piece line. The closest in price I did get at a local B&M diamond broker for the diamond alone was over $1K more than I paid White Flash. That didn't include a custom made bezel setting/necklace, the small fee to the appraiser, or sales tax. All together I saved over $1,500, got the diamond pendant I wanted, within the budget I had set.

Was I really "just short of crazy" or a saavy shopper????


Oh, and uhm StoneCold,...... If, for some reason, I had changed my mind within 30 days, White Flash would have bought the diamond back for a 100% refund. Since the necklace was custom, I would be out that money. When, and if, I ever decide to trade up, White Flash has life-time trade up at 100% of purchase price on EVERY diamond they sell. And, no, I won't have to spend double in price to get that trade-in allowance like so many local B&M's. I just get a bigger diamond and 100% of this purchase price is allowed toward the purchase of the next diamond.


I've been through a trade-in with our local jeweler. It just didn't work like that. And, I bought from her originally.


If, for some reason, I hadn't liked the diamond from White Flash, it only costs $15 to ship it back via USPS registered mail. Takes a lot of returns to even come close to the $$$ amount of sales tax, let alone local price differences.
 

stonecold

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Messages
16
Fair enough, and I'm definitely glad that it worked out for you and that you got what you wanted. It sounds like your local is not very helpful. My jeweler has the same 30 day money back guarantee, and also will allow 100% of the paid price toward a future purchase. I know that I paid more than what I might on the internet, but for me the personal service was well worth it. And being inexperienced, I liked being able to make multiple visits and consultations before making my decision, so the local proximity was crucial in that regard.

I did not mean to offend anyone - I just feel that buying a stone on the internet is a risk that I would rather not take. For me, spending an extra $1k was no big deal. For others, it may be, and maybe the internet is a desirable alternative.

Der Shtonecold
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,441
No offense taken, StoneCold!


Some of the PS folk questioned why I wanted such a nice diamond for a pendant. I have 3 kids and I was looking at an "heirloom" diamond. I thought maybe one of them might take it and set it in a ring some day. I think I'm gonna beat them to it. While I love the pendant, and plan to enjoy it this way for a while, I really wanna see the diamond more often than when I happen by a mirror. LOLOL


You are so right about price point/budget being a deal maker or breaker. For lots of folks that come here, students especially, the only way they are going to get a half way decent e-ring is by net shopping. While you sound well established and financially capable, the extra $1K can mean the difference between a diamond chip/dog of a diamond and a real nice e-ring for lots of people. And then there are "SHOPPERS" like myself who just don't want to pay a penny more than we have to to get what we want!


My local jeweler just does not have the financial resources herself to honor 100% life-time upgrades. I'm sure other small independents can't as well. Their resources are tied up in new inventory that is constantly changing, rent, personnel, advertising and other expenses.
 

hlsgrad

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Messages
7
Hi Stonecold. First congratulations on your purchase...And thanks for your reply. Interestingly, my boyfriend who is also a lawyer has expressed the same concerns mentioned in your post, which prompted me to post my concerns about shopping for diamonds over the internet From reading this and other boards I started to believe that his risk-aversion was going to cost him a lot more money.

(By the way, I am not quite an attorney yet - I graduate this week...) Just out of curiosity, he has had pretty poor experiences with jewelers on Washington Street who came "highly recommended" by friends and other attorneys at his firm - any suggestions?
 

stonecold

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Messages
16
Congrats on your upcoming graduation.

I used Hefez & Sons at 387 Washington Street, 7th floor. A Mom and Pop/family business that two trusted friends used for their engagement rings. I won't ramble on, but it was a great experience - never pushy, incredibly patient and helpful. I've researched the price I'm paying and it is very reasonable. As indicated in my previous post, I also was prepared to spend a little extra for the local in-person service.

I worked with Jay Hefez, the apparent patriarch of the family/business, and he was great. I've also heard good things about his son Joe. The number there is (617) 451-2797.

I have also heard good things from trusted people about Barmachian's and Bedrosian's. I'm not sure exactly where the former is located, but the latter is at 333 Washington St, across from CVS and H&M, on the
2nd floor. My advice in closing is to look at as many stones as you can. And please do not take this the wrong way, but I strongly advise against shopping for a ring together. Trust your boyfriend to pick out something you will like. Not only is shopping together less "romantic," etc. (if you're into that kind of thing), I think potentially it can cause tension/conflict in making the decision and in the process in general - especially given that it requires a fair bit of educating before one can make a truly informed decision (and thus ideally requires both of you to be equally educated, etc.). But that is a personal choice for you two in the end.

I wish you the very best of luck in your search for the perfect ring - and in Bar study, your career, and beyond.


Stonecold
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
----------------
On 6/1/2003 11:45:40 PM stonecold wrote:

I think one would have to be just short of crazy to buy a diamond on the internet. ----------------
Are you aware that you may indeed have bought a diamond over the internet? Many jeweler's use Polygon to search for stones. Polygon is an on line listing of stones available to jewelers only.

Knowing what I know now with 20 years of buying experience, I would never buy blindly from a B&M store that would not work w/ me at internet prices. The markup isn't a few hundred dollars. In many cases it was several thousand dollars. One B&M quoted me $35K for the same speced stone that I could purchase for 25K on the net. I could have flown to see the stone.
 

stonecold

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Messages
16
I think you've missed my point entirely. At the outset, I know my jeweler did not get the stone from an internet dealer.

Assuming for the sake of argument that he had, however, I don;t see what point you are trying to make. My concern was with being able to see/experience/examine/scrutinize/compare/consult in person and in convenient fashion before making a purchase. Thus, as long as the diamond is stocked on the jeweler's premises, whether it originated through an internet dealer is completely irrelevant to my ability to meet my concerns.

Like I said before, I don;t mind paying an extra grand, and the service and overall experience, I thought, were well worth it.

Stone (actually warmer than) cold!
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
----------------
On 6/2/2003 9:52:50 AM stonecold wrote:

I think you've missed my point entirely. At the outset, I know my jeweler did not get the stone from an internet dealer.

Assuming for the sake of argument that he had, however, I don;t see what point you are trying to make. My concern was with being able to see/experience/examine/scrutinize/compare/consult in person and in convenient fashion before making a purchase. Thus, as long as the diamond is stocked on the jeweler's premises, whether it originated through an internet dealer is completely irrelevant to my ability to meet my concerns.

Like I said before, I don;t mind paying an extra grand, and the service and overall experience, I thought, were well worth it.

Stone (actually warmer than) cold!
----------------

I think you completely missed my point. Your entitled to your opinion....but.. I believe "short of crazy to buy a diamond on the internet" is an extremely strong statement from someone who has not had the experience. How are you so sure that many of the people buying on the net didn't have a similar experience as you? You are viewing it as such black & white. I know several people who have bought over the net with human to human contact. Some people on this forum *indeed* did fly in to see the stone.

Recommending someone work with a B&M stone is one thing. Saying someone is crazy for not doing so is ridiculous.
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,441
The vendor you dealt with, StoneCold, might not use the Net to source diamonds. In Boston, they can drive/puddle jump/take the train to the NYC Diamond District and purchase broker to broker. Not everybody using this forum has that kind of access. Even individuals that do have that kind of access, such as California with 2 huge diamond districts, buy from Price Scope vendors.

Many local B&M diamond brokers do source through Polygon. The local B&M Diamond Broker I visited used them. They told me so. They are very saavy and aware of the Net and say they work to price accordingly. They still wanted over $1K for a diamond similar to the one I bought from White Flash. That's $1K on a .75 carat diamond. How much more the larger you go??? Just on price difference alone, I could have flown to White Flash to view the diamonds in person and had a nice vacation trip.

White Flash shipped to a FedEx center right next door to where Hubby works. He picked up the diamonds on the way home. We looked them in all types of lighting conditions here at home for several days. Did you look at your diamond at Hefez in a totally dark room lit with only candlelight? Did you take your diamond to a window and view it indirect sunlight? Did you see exactly how your diamond would perform in the normal lighting of your home? The whole family, friends, and neighbors got to see the diamonds and vote for their favorite. The adults were envious that they hadn't been able to look at their diamonds at home before buying. For a nominal fee, I had the diamonds evaluated and verified that they matched the Certs. When I shipped the diamonds back to White Flash, I drove all of FOUR miles from my house to the Post Office. My pendant was returned to the FedEx station next door to Hubby's work place. How much easier and more convenient can you get than that? I did more leg work, driving, and looking in stores during the learning process than the effort I expended in the actual purchase.

Net or local diamond purchase. People make their own choices. Make informed buying decisions. Learn about CUT and the other diamond C's, including COST. Use the Cut Adviser to rate your selections and compare the asking price to the Price Stats. If you have to see and fondle the diamond in person, by all means buy locally. If you are saavy and want to save some of your hard earned cash for other uses, then by all means consider a purchase over the Net. Hard earned cash is really hours of your life you can never buy back.
 

stonecold

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Messages
16
I never said anyone was crazy - only "just short of crazy."

My original post was directed to HLSgrad, and I apologize if my use of hyperbole offended you. I only want people to find what they want, and advised HLS how she might go about doing that. I am glad that you are a satisfied customer yourself.

On another point, while I may be inexperienced, don't underestimate my ability to develop a proficiency and acumen worthy of the toughest critics... I think my stone is pretty f*ing kick ass, if I say so myself.

Anyway, best wishes and happy hunting folks.

Stone(d by the onlookers) Cold
 

stonecold

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 1, 2003
Messages
16
Agreed PQ!

But ... those of us who like to "eat dessert first" usually don't worry too too much about losing a couple hours of hard earned cash for the finer things, eh?


But I hear ya. I blame the impersonal nature of message boards and email for the way people apparently are perceiving my tone - I only mean to offer some advice based on my experience.


All the best.

SC
 

diane5006

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 8, 2003
Messages
652
HI all...

Everyone has a point and good ones at that


There are plusses and minuses to buying either way...

Stone glad you had a good experiene you too Fire...

That being said one does not always get the best price from the net...more often than not perhaps...but one should not assume that because it is on-line it is the cheapest...

I personally like hands on...but would not have an issue buying on-line...now...because of all the stuff I have learned...and of the great return policies many of the vendors have...

As I mentioned I had looked in downtown...but could not find what I wanted (a fancy shape) actually I found one that was too much...I started looking on-line and found several listing for what I might want...then I started to do more research to make sure I got the best one for my money...and stumbled across something I liked better...

and am in the process on getting one...and am going to see it in person...because I have never seen on in person (fancy shape) and want to make sure...if it is not what I want I can get something else...from the same vendor either on person or on-line since they good old gold have both store and internet)...Yes I could have gotten the one via net and looked at it and sent it back....but it is not too far...and BF and I are making a trip out of it...

My advice (should you choose to listen to it) is to get as much information as you can regarding specs, prices and what you want...before you conact store (on-line or otherwise)

That being said don't get too caught up in the numbers...if a stone 'speaks' to you then it does...but know what the numbers mean...


As for whether to shop with your BF or not...that depends on you guys...personally the only thing I want ot be suprised about is when I get it...but other want to be completely suprised...

Best of luck to you hope you find what you are looking for



 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,441
----------------
On 6/2/2003 10:35
9 AM trichrome wrote:

Fire&Ice,

ohohohoh...another "hot" thread!!!!!!

Trichrome

----------------
You got that one right, Trichrome!


Although I did not fly to Texas to visit White Flash in person, people do all the time. I had a lot of personal contact via email and telephone. I initially spoke with Lesley Harris. She had me chat with Brian Gavin. I called several times when I spoke with Judi and Denise in Sales as well. I also spoke to Lisa in shipping. I've even talked with Diamond Bob. No I haven't seen faces to go with all the names, but the people are all very friendly, pleasant, and professional. I am not a number or an anonomous caller. I am treated like a VERY SPECIAL person. While I am quite sure I was one of White Flash's smaller sales they most certainly did not treat me like chump change.
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
----------------
On 6/2/2003 10:44:20 AM stonecold wrote:

I never said anyone was crazy - only "just short of crazy."

My original post was directed to HLSgrad, and I apologize if my use of hyperbole offended you. I only want people to find what they want, and advised HLS how she might go about doing that. I am glad that you are a satisfied customer yourself.

On another point, while I may be inexperienced, don't underestimate my ability to develop a proficiency and acumen worthy of the toughest critics... I think my stone is pretty f*ing kick ass, if I say so myself.

Anyway, best wishes and happy hunting folks.

Stone(d by the onlookers) Cold
----------------

Semantics - crazy ...just short of crazy

Funny, you don't even know my experience; yet, you assume. I have purchased most of my stones & "fine" jewelery from B&M stores. This is an experience that has worked for me. That said, while doing some initial "research" at some local B&M shops, I was appalled at their lack of knowledge & extreme pricing.

I'm not knocking your stone. I have no idea nor do I care what it looks like. I maintain that your statement was rather extreme. I never said that your "way" was short of crazy. It's a valid option. I'm glad you found a great stone that does it for you.

Anyway, I'm a Libra & can't help but weigh all options. The internet is a valid one.

I'm sure the initial poster welcomed your information about local Boston jewelers.
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,441

Hest88

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 22, 2003
Messages
4,357
Good points on all sides. You can get a great experience buying off the Internet and a great experience buying on-site. The key though, as Stonecold said, is to first be educated. It doesn't matter if you get to see 50 diamonds if you don't know what a good diamond looks like. The first time a person has chocolate, it doesn't matter how bad the chocolate is--she'll probably be wowed. Same with price. If she's used to paying a certain amount, she'll have no idea if she's getting a good price.

Read the tutorials, read the customer testimonials, go out and look at diamonds and diamond prices, then decide how you want to proceed.
 

Heyjud

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
243
Most folks on this forum are in the know
They'll help you to relize the right way to go.

Buying on-line has big perks---and it's true
You'll get more for your money, and better stones too!

 

greengator

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 14, 2003
Messages
23
Based on my personal experience, I think knowledge is POWER. You need to know what you are looking before walking into a B&M jeweler store or emailing or talking to some online jewelers. But let me tell you, sometimes I can't imagine getting the kind of service that I have received, and continuely been recieving from Todd at nice ice (plus his free laugh therapy over the phone).

My ordeal is not over yet and I will write up more in the future.

I also got good service from Barmakian Brothers in NH and their price is very competitive. When I asked for a Sarin report, they gave it to me in a day. The problem is that I don't have any visibility into their inventory and have to rely on the sales guy.

So if one has time and enjoys shopping, go for it. Me, on the other hand, would rather deal with computer than humans and some people pound pavement, I pound KEYBOARD.

-- Larry
 

Heyjud

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
243
Buying diamonds on the net
Sounds scary - it's true
But sites like this one
Make it easy for you.

You get free advise
From folks in the know
And find the best venders
To whom you should go!

(it's like having a SUPER SUPER size mall of ONLY Jewelers!!!)
 
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