RB face up arrows

[newjourney]

Hello,

Like many guys joining this forum, I've been visiting from time to time before joining to learn the science behind diamond quality. Many thanks to all passionate contributers who have helped providing a discerning knowledge to people wishing to make an informed purchase.

I've been looking around for round brilliant diamonds and have noticed that not all RB diamonds show arrows in the face up position even when they're AGS000 or 3X's and have similar ideal proportions. Is this a result of diamond placement or angle of the camera positioned by the vendor when taking the picture? For instance, RB's from Whiteflash and GOG almost always shows arrows in the face up position, whereas those from James Allen and BG sometimes lack that image.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3227663.htm
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.31-carat-i-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-322307

I'm aware these are all very reputable vendors and their diamonds are very nice... but I just wanted to know if arrows are typically apparent when viewing face up, especially when a diamond possesses ideal lab scores and physical attributes. I like optical symmetry and will eventually find something in the H&A category or close to it. With the hearts not accessible once a diamond is mounted, being able to see the arrows up top is pretty neat.

Thank you.

 

[ecf8503]

Usually when a cutter bothers to obtain ideal angles they will also end up with hearts and arrows, but whether or not they are perfect H&A is variable.

That said, vendors like WF, BG, etc all use special lighting and photography techniques to get the arrows to "pop" and look black in photos. In real life a diamond looks more like they do on JA - silvery. Take a look at Good Old Gold's YouTube channel for many many video of stones in various lighting conditions (including outdoor and strong spotlighting) - you'll see the arrows are not black, they reflect light and show up as silver slivers at an angle and reflect white or colored light at just the right angles for the light to hit them directly.

 

[pfunk]

I can see the arrows in both of those stones. I am sure whiteflash has a very specific method for taking their photographs to ensure they get that consistent look with the bold, black arrows, just like they have a certain way of shooting their videos to get the fiery flashes of color to stand out. James Allen has a different photography setup that makes the stones look different from the whiteflash images.

Remember you aren't really going to see the black arrows in the diamond when viewing in real life, unless you are very close to the diamond. The arrows are a result of obstruction and when viewed at normal distances you won't see those well defined black arrows. Instead, they will be the source of white and colored flashes.

 

[solgen]

I can clearly see the arrows as well. It helps to see the arrows if the table is parallel to your face.

 

[newjourney]

Thanks for all the input. I wasn't sure if the asymmetric darkening of the arrows (regarding James Allen example) was a result of camera/lighting positioning or something inherently off about that particular diamond (as well as others that share similar uneven arrows color). I guess it's more likely a result of camera/diamond placement strategy.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I can see the arrows in both of those stones. I am sure whiteflash has a very specific method for taking their photographs to ensure they get that consistent look with the bold, black arrows, just like they have a certain way of shooting their videos to get the fiery flashes of color to stand out. James Allen has a different photography setup that makes the stones look different from the whiteflash images.

Remember you aren't really going to see the black arrows in the diamond when viewing in real life, unless you are very close to the diamond. The arrows are a result of obstruction and when viewed at normal distances you won't see those well defined black arrows. Instead, they will be the source of white and colored flashes.

Pfunk,
You are absolutely correct that different vendors use different photo setups and techniques and that creates wide variances in the visual appearance of the images, and the kind and quality of information that can be gleaned from them. You also make the observation that the fire stands out on Whiteflash diamond videos so I would like to explain a little about our approach.

First, adding video to our image package is a brand new initiative for us. We have worked in video for a while now and have produced many videos for customer requests and to add to some of our content pages, but we are just now rolling out a video for every diamond in stock. At the present time the videos are somewhat hidden on our diamond detail pages, residing on the far left in the row of thumbnails together with the Ideal Scope, ASET and H&A images. (Eventually we will make them more visible, but at present we do not have videos on every diamond.)

We believe that you cannot fully understand a diamond from any one piece of information, any one image, or even a video. A comprehensive package of information is required. Images and videos and even lab reports by themselves do not tell the full story. When adding video to our existing portfolio of information we decided that what was missing was gut-level understanding of the beauty and light handling potential of the diamond. The other information provided does a good job of documenting the key "clinical" or diagnostic aspects. We therefore decided on a black background to be more compatible with our website look and feel and which also tends to make the fire pop out. In addition we use a combination of diffuse daylight equivalent fluorescent light (sometimes referred to as "soft" light) which displays the brightness of the diamond, and LED directional (spot) light (also referred to as "hard" light) which displays the fire (colored sparkles) that the diamond is capable of producing.

Regarding the static magnified diamond image that features the black arrows, there is a technique for capturing this as well. Basically it is simply a matter of getting the diamond at the proper range from the lens in order for lens itself to be reflected in the facet structure, and getting the lens perfectly aligned with the table of the stone. A diamond cut to H&A level of precision will then show this distinctive pattern. Our diamond image, which is the poster child for our diamond detail pages, is much the same as it has always been. It conveys something specific, something technical, about the nature of the diamond and its cut quality. However, it doesn't convey anything about its true personality! More experienced visitors to our site, such as those that have spent some time on pricescope, understand the significance of that image and how it translates to fire and brilliance. But first time shoppers that happen to land on one of our diamond detail pages are presented a photo of the diamond that is NOT what they would expect a beautiful, fiery diamond to look like! This is the piece of information we wanted to make sure our visitors understand about these diamonds. And this is the main goal of our diamond videos.

You can see inclusions in these magnified videos, and often they appear much worse than they are. (The directional light in particular tends to illuminate and accentuate inclusions like the dark field on a microscope.) But correlating the video with the lab report, and with our "eye-clean" designation, one can generally put clarity in perspective. Nuances of body color are NOT discernable in our videos, but we feel that attempting to get accurate color information from video, even taken on a neutral background, is not at all reliable. There are differences in backgrounds, light color temperature, camera "white balance", as well as the monitors they are being viewed on that create wide variability. Again the lab report is the official measure of a diamond's body color.

Sorry for the long post but I hope that helps shed some light on the Whiteflash approach to imaging, and maybe a little more insight into web based diamond imaging in general.

 

[pfunk]

I can see the arrows in both of those stones. I am sure whiteflash has a very specific method for taking their photographs to ensure they get that consistent look with the bold, black arrows, just like they have a certain way of shooting their videos to get the fiery flashes of color to stand out. James Allen has a different photography setup that makes the stones look different from the whiteflash images.

Remember you aren't really going to see the black arrows in the diamond when viewing in real life, unless you are very close to the diamond. The arrows are a result of obstruction and when viewed at normal distances you won't see those well defined black arrows. Instead, they will be the source of white and colored flashes.

Pfunk,
You are absolutely correct that different vendors use different photo setups and techniques and that creates wide variances in the visual appearance of the images, and the kind and quality of information that can be gleaned from them. You also make the observation that the fire stands out on Whiteflash diamond videos so I would like to explain a little about our approach.

First, adding video to our image package is a brand new initiative for us. We have worked in video for a while now and have produced many videos for customer requests and to add to some of our content pages, but we are just now rolling out a video for every diamond in stock. At the present time the videos are somewhat hidden on our diamond detail pages, residing on the far left in the row of thumbnails together with the Ideal Scope, ASET and H&A images. (Eventually we will make them more visible, but at present we do not have videos on every diamond.)

We believe that you cannot fully understand a diamond from any one piece of information, any one image, or even a video. A comprehensive package of information is required. Images and videos and even lab reports by themselves do not tell the full story. When adding video to our existing portfolio of information we decided that what was missing was gut-level understanding of the beauty and light handling potential of the diamond. The other information provided does a good job of documenting the key "clinical" or diagnostic aspects. We therefore decided on a black background to be more compatible with our website look and feel and which also tends to make the fire pop out. In addition we use a combination of diffuse daylight equivalent fluorescent light (sometimes referred to as "soft" light) which displays the brightness of the diamond, and LED directional (spot) light (also referred to as "hard" light) which displays the fire (colored sparkles) that the diamond is capable of producing.

Regarding the static magnified diamond image that features the black arrows, there is a technique for capturing this as well. Basically it is simply a matter of getting the diamond at the proper range from the lens in order for lens itself to be reflected in the facet structure, and getting the lens perfectly aligned with the table of the stone. A diamond cut to H&A level of precision will then show this distinctive pattern. Our diamond image, which is the poster child for our diamond detail pages, is much the same as it has always been. It conveys something specific, something technical, about the nature of the diamond and its cut quality. However, it doesn't convey anything about its true personality! More experienced visitors to our site, such as those that have spent some time on pricescope, understand the significance of that image and how it translates to fire and brilliance. But first time shoppers that happen to land on one of our diamond detail pages are presented a photo of the diamond that is NOT what they would expect a beautiful, fiery diamond to look like! This is the piece of information we wanted to make sure our visitors understand about these diamonds. And this is the main goal of our diamond videos.

You can see inclusions in these magnified videos, and often they appear much worse than they are. (The directional light in particular tends to illuminate and accentuate inclusions like the dark field on a microscope.) But correlating the video with the lab report, and with our "eye-clean" designation, one can generally put clarity in perspective. Nuances of body color are NOT discernable in our videos, but we feel that attempting to get accurate color information from video, even taken on a neutral background, is not at all reliable. There are differences in backgrounds, light color temperature, camera "white balance", as well as the monitors they are being viewed on that create wide variability. Again the lab report is the official measure of a diamond's body color.

Sorry for the long post but I hope that helps shed some light on the Whiteflash approach to imaging, and maybe a little more insight into web based diamond imaging in general.

No need to apologize for a long post... It was a great one! Very cool setup that you guys have over there. The videos are AWESOME and your diamonds are gorgeous. I can really see how these videos will ultimately make the consumer even more informed to make the right decision when it comes to buying a diamond. The wealth of info you provide just got wealthier... Hats off to you for that!

Now, we've seen Rhino's comparison videos, so lets get a superideal vs ideal vs steep deep comparison with Whiteflash's video setup.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I can see the arrows in both of those stones. I am sure whiteflash has a very specific method for taking their photographs to ensure they get that consistent look with the bold, black arrows, just like they have a certain way of shooting their videos to get the fiery flashes of color to stand out. James Allen has a different photography setup that makes the stones look different from the whiteflash images.

Remember you aren't really going to see the black arrows in the diamond when viewing in real life, unless you are very close to the diamond. The arrows are a result of obstruction and when viewed at normal distances you won't see those well defined black arrows. Instead, they will be the source of white and colored flashes.

Pfunk,
You are absolutely correct that different vendors use different photo setups and techniques and that creates wide variances in the visual appearance of the images, and the kind and quality of information that can be gleaned from them. You also make the observation that the fire stands out on Whiteflash diamond videos so I would like to explain a little about our approach.

First, adding video to our image package is a brand new initiative for us. We have worked in video for a while now and have produced many videos for customer requests and to add to some of our content pages, but we are just now rolling out a video for every diamond in stock. At the present time the videos are somewhat hidden on our diamond detail pages, residing on the far left in the row of thumbnails together with the Ideal Scope, ASET and H&A images. (Eventually we will make them more visible, but at present we do not have videos on every diamond.)

We believe that you cannot fully understand a diamond from any one piece of information, any one image, or even a video. A comprehensive package of information is required. Images and videos and even lab reports by themselves do not tell the full story. When adding video to our existing portfolio of information we decided that what was missing was gut-level understanding of the beauty and light handling potential of the diamond. The other information provided does a good job of documenting the key "clinical" or diagnostic aspects. We therefore decided on a black background to be more compatible with our website look and feel and which also tends to make the fire pop out. In addition we use a combination of diffuse daylight equivalent fluorescent light (sometimes referred to as "soft" light) which displays the brightness of the diamond, and LED directional (spot) light (also referred to as "hard" light) which displays the fire (colored sparkles) that the diamond is capable of producing.

Regarding the static magnified diamond image that features the black arrows, there is a technique for capturing this as well. Basically it is simply a matter of getting the diamond at the proper range from the lens in order for lens itself to be reflected in the facet structure, and getting the lens perfectly aligned with the table of the stone. A diamond cut to H&A level of precision will then show this distinctive pattern. Our diamond image, which is the poster child for our diamond detail pages, is much the same as it has always been. It conveys something specific, something technical, about the nature of the diamond and its cut quality. However, it doesn't convey anything about its true personality! More experienced visitors to our site, such as those that have spent some time on pricescope, understand the significance of that image and how it translates to fire and brilliance. But first time shoppers that happen to land on one of our diamond detail pages are presented a photo of the diamond that is NOT what they would expect a beautiful, fiery diamond to look like! This is the piece of information we wanted to make sure our visitors understand about these diamonds. And this is the main goal of our diamond videos.

You can see inclusions in these magnified videos, and often they appear much worse than they are. (The directional light in particular tends to illuminate and accentuate inclusions like the dark field on a microscope.) But correlating the video with the lab report, and with our "eye-clean" designation, one can generally put clarity in perspective. Nuances of body color are NOT discernable in our videos, but we feel that attempting to get accurate color information from video, even taken on a neutral background, is not at all reliable. There are differences in backgrounds, light color temperature, camera "white balance", as well as the monitors they are being viewed on that create wide variability. Again the lab report is the official measure of a diamond's body color.

Sorry for the long post but I hope that helps shed some light on the Whiteflash approach to imaging, and maybe a little more insight into web based diamond imaging in general.

No need to apologize for a long post... It was a great one! Very cool setup that you guys have over there. The videos are AWESOME and your diamonds are gorgeous. I can really see how these videos will ultimately make the consumer even more informed to make the right decision when it comes to buying a diamond. The wealth of info you provide just got wealthier... Hats off to you for that!

Now, we've seen Rhino's comparison videos, so lets get a superideal vs ideal vs steep deep comparison with Whiteflash's video setup.

Thanks for the kind words P. We might be able to do some fun things in terms of comparison videos after we get all our in-stock diamond videos up. Our photography department is working hard to implement this on the hundreds of diamonds in our inventory while at the same time keeping up with their normal workflow. But we believe in the "Kaizen" method of continuous improvement, so little by little we will get there!

 

[Dancing Fire]

These pics were taken looking through a toilet tissue tube.

 

[newjourney]

Thank you all for your informative posts.
So if a diamond shows uneven darkening or even missing arrow(s) when both camera and the diamond are in perfect parallel/distance/lighting, would it be appropriate to assume that diamond is lacking symmetry? Is it at all possible for that to happen even when the diamond possesses good idealscope and ASET images?

 

[ecf8503]

One set of facets may be tilted just enough that they don't show up with the same amount of visibility in certain lighting. I have one like that - the symmetry is still listed as excellent (but that is meet point symmetry, not facet to facet comparison symmetry) - the arrows are still prominent and look good, but one of them doesn't always show up when the others do. Doesn't make for a less beautiful stone, but the lack of symmetrical optical appearance still bugs me sometimes. So yes the ASET and IS can still show great performance, but you may be able to see in those images if there is one arrow that doesn't quite mesh with the others.

 

[newjourney]

Thanks, ecf! That's exactly what I was hoping to learn.

 

[solgen]

I would think the ASET would still show it unless there's a specific angle only at which all the arrows appear. There's some diamond vendors who have pics, vid, ASET, IS so you can see some diamonds where an arrow is missing or faint in the image or the table looks a bit dim and you can typically see it in the ASET or even the IS.

 

[ecf8503]

I would think the ASET would still show it unless there's a specific angle only at which all the arrows appear. There's some diamond vendors who have pics, vid, ASET, IS so you can see some diamonds where an arrow is missing or faint in the image or the table looks a bit dim and you can typically see it in the ASET or even the IS.

True - I saw it on my stone's IS before I bought it. And it is visible in real life.