Rating a cut - no straight answer?

[taddles]

I just recently found PS this week and it has already helped me enormously in my search for a Princess cut diamond. That being said, my problem is with trying to get a straight answer from anyone in regarding the cut of a diamond I''m looking at.

I recently asked one jeweler about how they look at cut and all they could say was lenght x width ratio. Nothing else. Looks like that jeweler is out of the running.

Another jeweler I just began working with, and already trust more, said there is no definitive standards for princess and that alot of it is how it appears to your eyes.

So my first post/question here is, what characteristics in a princess cut can I look for to gauge the cut? Is there are measurements or tests that I can run or have them run to somewhat quantify the cut of a princess diamond?

Thanks for the help in advance and I''m sure that PS will continue to aid me in my search.

 

[limey]

http://www.gemappraisers.com/

Click on AGA Cut Charts and Rules
Select Princess
Thar ya go!

Now the problem is finding a diamond that meets these measurements!

 

[Nicrez]

What a can or worms!!!

Cut on any stones, even ROUNDS can be tricky and subject to the eye of the cutter and the buyer.

Note a few things:

Many diamond retailers buy stones by LOOKING at them and nothing more. The certs sometimes are only for pricing.

Cuts are not always "optimal" on stones, as the cutters try to keep carat weight at the risk of deeper, lifeless stones, or they hide the weight in the girdles. Again, carat weight helps determine price to jewelers AND to customers.

Some people prefer different looks on stones and some people have different priorities. Such an example is a large table. Some people like how the stone looks "whiter" and has a larger look facing up.

Many here will argue that a proportional table and depth are the best and allow the science of light reflection and refration to work it's magic to the best possible light, fire and scintillation. HCA helps people find stones like that in rounds, no one had a tool that helpful for shaped stones.

AGA seems to be one of the best resources for shaped stones as they provide cut charts for princesses and various other shapes, and have shown a good standard of cut dimensions that allow a stone to be efficiently cut and optimize it's best qualities.

Few people cut to those standards, as stated again, they lose carat weight, and oddly, the demand for precision cut stones in the mass of diamond buyers is too low to command these efficient stones to qualify for a premium.

Shaped stones can be tricky to determine mathematically ALONE...Even when numbers are reached on shaped stones, sometimes an angle can be off and the stone is not as lovely as one with "lesser" numbers. Thus, you need to see them to love them.

It takes a lot of study and a lot of excellent stones and ugly stones to know the difference. Jewelers tend to have the stones, but many don't care to learn the why. They sell and whatever they have they have to sell. Whether it's pretty or not.

Many jewelers here ENJOY the constant learning and sharing of info, so they operate their stores during the day and when they can post information or even ask questions that help everyone out. This is MUCH more progressive of adiscussion, as most people who SELL diamonds DON'T have GGs and DON'T know dimaonds to the extent these enthusiast do.

I have actually taught some jewelers who have been selling stones for over 20 years, and they have been intrigued by the girl who came in with an AGA chart they never heard of. Some are just ignorant of the new trends and the mathematics of the stone. Some care, some don't.

Most people don't demand perfection, as they don;t know what that is exactly. Many people are satisfied with what they learn from friends of a GIA report and buy accordingly, with trust in their jeweler.

Cut is elusive, as it varies from stone shape to stone...It isn't an exact science, but it's getting closer every day. Optimum brilliance s far has been shown by using a Ideal Scope and slowly shaped stones (like the Jubilee) are learning how to adhere to the perfections of H&A round stones... But even THAT doesn't apply to marquis and pears, etc...

Can you ever know enough? I don't think you ever can...

 

[limey]

the best answers to the cut question I heard include classics such as:

"ours are cut the best"
"this is a princess cut"
"this one is cut to be symmetrical"
"ours are cut to look bigger"

 

[noobie]

----------------
On 4/22/2004 5:09:50 PM andr3wpd wrote:





the best answers to the cut question I heard include classics such as:

'ours are cut the best'
'this is a princess cut'
'this one is cut to be symmetrical'
'ours are cut to look bigger'
----------------

You forgot

"we only sell the best cuts"

 

[moremoremore]

I think the only thing I have to add is that the cut chart is a good place to start and it will help so that you don't pay for a 1A stone if you're not getting a 1A. After that, it's all about the eye baby! When I saw my stone....the jeweler showed it to me....my jaw dropped....he then put it in his shirt pocket and proceeded to show me about 6 other ones....and after each one I saw, I said nothing but proceeded to point to his pocket! I just knew! The cut chart helped me determine if I paid a good price!

 

[moremoremore]

Have you ever gone into a mall jewelry store and just for fun asked if they could show you bscope / light / ideal scope results..... as you see the giant question mark pop up above their heads!

 

[moremoremore]

oh- and to answer your question... I would look for a dark center....good with chocolate...not so good with princess cuts!

I want no dark silver....I want bright white....Also, you can actually see a flat crown and big table just by looking at the stone....

 

[Shay37]

You also forgot: it's square. LOL

Shay

 

[pqcollectibles]

All Fancies are hard. The Cut Charts are guidelines to finding the better cuts. From there, it comes down to evaluation for light return and your eye. If you keep the table and depth %'s around 70-72% and below, you'll find the better performers. Don't go too shallow on the depth to avoid a washed out looking diamond.

Also, there are 4 Vendors on Price Scope that physically stock princess cut diamonds that have been professionally evaluated for performance.

www.whiteflash.com Look in the Expert Selection. WF gives Price Scope Members a 5% discount off the list price.

www.goodoldgold.com Click on Diamonds at the top of the home page, then select Princess in the left hand tool bar of the next page.

www.niceice.com

www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com Signature Series

Spend some time looking at Princess cuts at these Vendors websites. Get a feel for specs of better cut stones. You'll learn a lot by looking at stats of known performers.

 

[Nicrez]

Princess stones ARE NOT the same as radiants...please...

Too many idiot jewelers I saw said, "same thing! Oone has corners, the other doesn't." WRONG-O!

A princess has four concentric four sides star cuts on the pavillion that radiate from the culet. The culet should be very small, pointed or none, according to the certification. Anything bigger might get ugly! it also has pointed corners and SHOULD NOT have a very thin girdle, as this can chip and crack easily. Make sure it is at least medium to thick.

Also, a princess is known to have a deeper depth and a larger table than most stones. A round stone will have different percent tolerances than a shaped stone. SO, find a princess with a depth AROUND 73% (less is more efficiently and rarely cut- but in conjunction with a smaller table, makes the brilliancy excellent!) And find a table that is slightly less than the depth, so 72 and under. Under 70 is preferred. If a stone has a table that is too large, you are in danger of having what is known as a "fisheye" or even a "bowtie effect".

A fisheye happend when the depth is too shallow to accomodate the wavelength of the light entering the stone at such a large table. The center will have a glassy sort of look in a ring around the culet. This is the part of the stone that very poorly reflects light, and will "leak" light. One excellent indicator of this problem is the Ideascope. With color, it shows where the stone reflects the most light, and where it is whiter, where the stones DOESN'T reflect light, which is what it is supposed to do!

A bowtie effect can happen when a shaped stone is showing a dark spot in the center, or on either side of the culet, sometimes in the shape of a bowtie. Many stones I saw it had one. My current stone is a square stone with NO bowtie. Some think it's a shadow of your head, but technically I think someone proved it was the obstruction of light, vs. shadow.

Link to bowtie in shaped stones post

The slightly over-technical explanantion of Obstruction over shadow in bowtie effects:
Link to obstruction vs. shadow post

Either way, I do suggest looking at princess stones and comapring different cuts. I would look for stones with a fairly high crown, and depth under 73, and a table under 70. Also make sure it has fire (colored sparkles) and has brilliancy (white sparkles) and just sort of jumps at you (even AWAY from jewelery store lighting!) Take it to a lower lit spot, ask the jeweler to let you see it outside. COmpare it to others...

Look around, shop for prices, bargain if you think you can and always go with someone you trust enough to buy from again, even if it's the "deal of a lifetime", it may end up being "you get what you paid for!" Good luck and let us know what you find!!!

 

[valeria101]

Bowtie in Princess and rads ? Nope... it shouldn't be there to be seen. Not that it doesn not happen, but unlike ovals, marqs and pears, the squares should avoid it altogether - not inescapable

 

[taddles]

Thanks for all the help. At least I have some idea of measurements that I can look at for a stone.

I did ask a mall jewelery store about any tests that can be done to measure the brilliance or quality of the cut. Yup, they had no idea. Of course they were also the same people that said it was a princess cut when I asked about cut quality.

So besides the Idealscope, what are other tests that can be done to a stone to test the cut or brilliance? Do all/most jewelers have access to these tests or is it something I must seek out on my own?

 

[strmrdr]

check out this thread:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/tail-of-a-princess%E2%80%99s-girdle.14798/

While the girdle isnt ideal the rest of the diamond pretty much is.
Look at the symmetry and the ideal scope pictures to get an idea of what to look for.

 

[Nicrez]

Hey Ana,

Do you believe I saw both princesses and radiants with a dark facets shaped like a bowtie?! As a matter of fact, not sure HOW badly they where cut, but I saw at least 4 radiants and 2 princess stones with them in my search. What about a cut makes a stone do this?

What does that say about the diaonds cut out there...?

 

[Rank Amateur]

----------------
On 4/23/2004 9:01:08 AM taddles wrote:

So besides the Idealscope, what are other tests that can be done to a stone to test the cut or brilliance? Do all/most jewelers have access to these tests or is it something I must seek out on my own?----------------

Few jewelers have chosen to invest in specialized equipment such as the BrillinceScope or the ISee2. I don't think the ISee2 is even set up for fancies but I'm not sure. The investment is significant yet the results are debatable.

Besides, there's more to fancies than light return. It seems to me that the liveliness of the stone is more interesting for the eye in a fancy than in a round. I suppose this is about contrast and the pleasing nature of non-symmetrical shapes.

I say all you can do is start with the AGA charts and then go out and look at as many as you can side-by-side. Have fun with it!

R/A