Radiant Cut thoughts?

[psumike]

Does anyone have any thoughts on this Radiant Diamond? I visited a local (and allegedly trusted) B&M shop to find it. The sales staff assured me that they only carry ideal diamonds and they stand my their name ...

I got a hold of the AGS report, I know there is no HCL calculation for Radiant cuts. I tried Dave Atlas's calculator but couldnt understand the output... I'm hoping to have the Ideal Scope today or tomorrow

here are are the specs from AGS:

Measure: 7.45x7.33x4.56
Weight: 2.018 cts
Total Depth: 62.2%
Table: 58.4%
Girdle: Extremely thin to slighty thick
Culet: pointed
Polish: excellent
Symmetry: good
Color Grade AGS 1.5 (G)
Clarity Grade AGS 6 (SI2)

To the right looks like a pic of the rock with the following
Crown height: 12.4%
Crown angle: 33.0 degrees
Pavil height: 47.2%
Pavil Angle: 33.9 degrees
Girdle Thickness: 0.0 % to 4.4 %

Any help would be appriciated.

thanks !!!

 

[psumike]

Any thoughts on this ASET image? Its for the one mentioned above.

Thanks

 

[Gypsy]

They both look angled. I can't tell much from the pics other than... the diamond is tilted in the ASET.

 

[slg47]

what did you think of the diamond in person?

 

[tyty333]

That aset doesnt look like it was taken correctly because if thats a true reflection of the stone its got a lot of leakage
(but like I said, I think its a bad aset image).

 

[psumike]

OK, so I'm working on getting a real ASET image from the store. The one above taken from a camera.

Also, I aksed for a cerin report and was told that they cant do one for 1.75 ct or above... is that really true or is that just someone who doesnt want to help.

What else shold I be considering? I put the diamond through the AGA calc and received the following ... the result is a 1B. is that any good?

Length:7.45
Width:7.33
Depth:4.56
Total Depth:62.21%
Table percent:58.4
Crown height:12.4
Girdle (from):Extremely thick
Girdle (to):Slightly thick
Polish:Excellent / Very Good
Symmetry:Good

Tab Percent: 2A
Crown Height: 1A
Girdle: 1A
Depth: 1A
Polish: 1A
Symmetry: 1A
TotalGrade: 1B

 

[JulieN]

Might be true, though I would have thought the limit to be higher. Sarin isn't going to tell you anything since you can get an ASET and have the AGS report, so I wouldn't bother.

The AGA system is nice, but now obsolete since you have ASET.

You should look into the branded cuts like Quadex at Brian Gavin, or Princess of Hearts or Lucere at Good Old Gold. It is difficult to find a nice radiant, definitely not something I'd leave to your local B&M.

 

[psumike]

Hey thanks,

1. I looked at GOG -- I cant find the Lucere

2. The GOG POH looks nice. I wanted to go with 2 ct or close to it... what do you think about this ASET? http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8395/

3. Thanks for the tip on Brian Gavin -- his stuff looks crazy good, look at this ASET http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/Diamonds/diamond-details/1.753-G-VS2-quadex-Diamond-AGS-104049909016#!prettyPhoto[gallery2]/0/ -- the issue with BG is he's 3K more for less ct.

4. I'm also looking at a James Allen stone and requested the ASET. Its a standard radiant cut.

I need to make a decision soon.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Just a note: the Radiant cut was invented by Henry Grosbard- and there Is an Original branded Radiant Cut

 

[John P]

The numbers on the original radiant are not off-putting. I do see there is a discrepancy between the grading report girdle (XTN-STK) and the girdle cited in the AGA feedback (STK-XTK). I don't subscribe to AGA fancy cut guidelines for a number of reasons so I'd personally consider the AGSL report details, the ASET seen in-person and (especially) your own visual observations as the most meaningful components. I presume you have checked the SI2 clarity in-person (visually). I'd encourage you to get clarification on where/how severely the girdle runs to XTN.

I think it's too bad that your local B&M was unable to produce a meaningful ASET image. It looks like they've gone to the trouble to carry AGSL reports and have some level of AGS ASET equipment onsite. That's superior effort compared to the vast majority of "local" B&M jewelry stores and gets my applause.

You have located a couple of extremely cut-focused sellers here, using technology in both development and assessment of diamond cut. Between these and your local jeweler I am sure you can locate a beautifully cut diamond, whether a radiant or a new variation. As RD mentions, there is also an "Original Radiant Cut Diamond" out and about which conforms to the original designer's concept.

Finally, as with anything, when you get into the area of cut-quality/performance it will cost a bit more to get the very best.

 

[psumike]

John/RD,

Thanks for the info. Believe it or not the reason the local retailer had the ASET was because I asked them for it and they purchased it along with an IS. Also I took the images above with my iPhone while trying to hold the diamond and click. (there was no backlight to place the diamond on, I just used a piece of paper) -- so this all explains the bad image. I agree -- they did go the exta mile to get the equiptment.

On the other hand, I had JA pull an ASET for another radiant. I'm guessing this is a bad ASET? Is suspect the white is the actual ASET with backlight and the black is the colors inverted?

Any thoughts?

thanks again.

 

[yssie]

John/RD,

Thanks for the info. Believe it or not the reason the local retailer had the ASET was because I asked them for it and they purchased it along with an IS. Also I took the images above with my iPhone while trying to hold the diamond and click. (there was no backlight to place the diamond on, I just used a piece of paper) -- so this all explains the bad image. I agree -- they did go the exta mile to get the equiptment.

On the other hand, I had JA pull an ASET for another radiant. I'm guessing this is a bad ASET? Is suspect the white is the actual ASET with backlight and the black is the colors inverted?

Any thoughts?

thanks again.

Awesome!! Jewellers who would be willing to take that sort of plunge and explore new territory with new tools are few and far between - they are to be lauded for their initiative!

No go on the paper without backlight behind though Post an actual pic of the JA?

The divot in which the stone sits during photography can be coloured black - the black background. White is more useful. In terms of "good vs bad" - there's more to it than a linear how much red vs. green is there w/ fancies. I personally don't like what I can see of the facet patterning in that one... some fancy shapes are designed to be flashlights in overhead lighting like RBs, some aren't, faceting has a huge effect on the look of the stone...

ETA: what did JA have to say about it?

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI psumike, you're welcome!
Kudos to your jeweler for going the extra mile....but I am curious- but what would you want to see in the aset?
This is a trick question- I don't expect you to know that Mike...but the point is, if someone else says it's a "good" aset, what if you don;t find the same thing in real life?
IOW- just because someone says an ASET is "good" does not mean you'll love the diamond, and vice versa. Someone saying it's a "bad" does not mean it's definitely a badly cut diamond- or one that you won't love.

John, kind of interesting how your post is phrased- you write that there is "also" an Original Radiant Cut Diamond....in my mind that's the Radiant cut. The others are "also".
This is relevant Mike because the interpretation of the aset is totally subjective- and based on what someone likes.
If one wants a stone that shows patterns- like Heart and Arrows, you need a lot of red
if you like the type of diamond envisioned by the creator of the Radiant Cut, it's going to have a lot of green- and some white.
Although it might seem that white is "bad" ( defined as leakage), white on an aset does not indicate that you'll see your finger through the diamond.

 

[John P]

Mike, you're welcome. It really is nice that your local jeweler is working to accommodate your wishes.

I'm guessing this is a bad ASET? Is suspect the white is the actual ASET with backlight and the black is the colors inverted?

Any thoughts?

Actually they've provided photos of both non-backlit and backlit environments. Very cool. The non-backlit method has been incorporated into several versions of the store/countertop ASET viewers produced by AGS. However the original AGS lab studies, grading methodology and largely-agreed-on way to most clearly see windowing/leakage comes via backlighting.

In your photos above the diamonds were turned from each other 180 degrees. Here they are in same-orientation. It's illuminating to see both views. It clearly demonstrates how the backlit method details more areas that are potentially worthy of study in-person; through tilt, distance and different lighting conditions.

 

[iota15]

I wouldn't buy any of the radians with the Aset images you've posted so far, unless you fell in love with how they look in person.

With the original radiant cuts, I've manage to get some of them under an Aset and I would say you need to assess your love for each of those on a case by case basis as well. They're generally better than the generics on the market but falling within certain cutting parameters does not guarantee a pretty stone.

In the end though, you have to decide what trade-offs you want to make. Most of us have limited resources and/or limited monies we want to spend on a luxury purchase. It doesn't have to be an optically perfect stone based on whatever you consider ideal, but if you must reach the 2ct mark, maybe you'll have to lower your color standards or something else. For me, the Aset images above are just too poor for me to consider them further.

 

[iota15]

Just from the Aset, both the GOG and BGD stones look great.

If you're interested in the GOG, ask john for a video and his comments on the corner inclusion.

 

[psumike]

Hey all, thanks for helping me out here.

So JA said the following about the last ASET I posted

"It's perfectly eye clean and has an icy white color performance. There is a very small area off to the side of the table that has the windowing affect but it is not offensive and it is less likely to be picked up on by the untrained eye. This is a gorgeous that I believe you will be very pleased with when you see it for yourself"

The picture of it is found here http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Radiant-Diamond-1139136.asp

But after reading everthing everone is saying and understanding that the white ASET is more key to determining the brilliance, I think its pretty obvious I have a dud. Agreed?

RD-- I really like the methods you describe how to understand the ASET. I get it, its a personal preference (H&A or Standard, or other). I just feel like the one's that I found so way too much leakage and hardly no red? Do you disagree? I'm really a novice here so I need to defer to experts that have been in the industry -- and I really appriciate all the feedback.

Iota, understood - so maybe less ct is better if the optics are outstanding. I'm starting to think this. And because of it I'm really thinking I'm now leaning to the GOG POH http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8395/ --

I think you convinced me to talk with GOG. John -- the guy in the videos, right? So I just cl and ask for John then?

thanks

 

[iota15]

It's up to you what's important. You can choose a lower clarity or color too. That would help you reach the two mark. For me, I waited for stone with lower but acceptable clarity.

GOG's one is a proprietary cut. It has great optics. Alternatively, you could always sit and wait and see what else pops up. Things are always showing up at JA and DBL. You probably won't get a hearts and arrows square cut like at BGD or GOG but it doesn't mean it won't be beautiful nonetheless.

You could also look at more rectangular or square cushions to give you more options. I have a rectagularish cushion. I had wanted a radiant but since the prongs cover the corners, it's not that easy to tell what it is. (To the truly novice, it's been mistaken for a princess a couple of times too. That didn't matter to me. I just knew I loved the stone.)

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Yes, ask for Jonathan. His Lucere radiants are gorgeous but I don't know how easy it is to get them. Princess of Hearts is also gorgeous. When you see these and compare to the two you posted, there is no comparison. I am going to link a Lucere so you can see how they differ from the PoH, but both are extremely symmetrical and well cut stones. They carry well cut regular radiants, too. It is just easier to buy from someone who specializes in well cut stones, in my opinion. They can source some for you to choose from if they don't have exactly what you want. They often take pictures or videos to make the choosing easier.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/7899/

 

[psumike]

Hi all,

So I've been talking to a guy from GOG named Matt. He put together this video http://vimeo.com/34962266 compairing the 2 that I was interested in (DiamondSeaker -- thanks for the suggestion on the Lucier)

1. POH 1.82 ct G SI1 -- http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8395/
2. Lucier Radiant 2.34 ct J SI1 --- http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/7899/

There is an obvious size difference, though the colors is easily seen when you compare the two. Matt from GOG also gave me this color compairson picture attached.

Also GOG said for the POH "...it is white in color and super fiery in light performance. Also the way I would describe the eye clean factor is the same way I would describe a VS2 type quality.. this is a GREAT SI1! I had trouble finding under the 10x loupe with a trained eye.."

I just wanted to solicit any feedback -- I'm tending to lean toward the POH after seeing the video.

thanks

 

[psumike]

OK, I can ask.

Any thoughts about the J color? I really like the size and look, its the color when compairing that I'm stuck on now.

Does anyone think J is too far our of range?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hey all, thanks for helping me out here.

So JA said the following about the last ASET I posted

"It's perfectly eye clean and has an icy white color performance. There is a very small area off to the side of the table that has the windowing affect but it is not offensive and it is less likely to be picked up on by the untrained eye. This is a gorgeous that I believe you will be very pleased with when you see it for yourself"

The picture of it is found here http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Radiant-Diamond-1139136.asp

But after reading everthing everone is saying and understanding that the white ASET is more key to determining the brilliance, I think its pretty obvious I have a dud. Agreed?

RD-- I really like the methods you describe how to understand the ASET. I get it, its a personal preference (H&A or Standard, or other). I just feel like the one's that I found so way too much leakage and hardly no red? Do you disagree? I'm really a novice here so I need to defer to experts that have been in the industry -- and I really appriciate all the feedback.

Iota, understood - so maybe less ct is better if the optics are outstanding. I'm starting to think this. And because of it I'm really thinking I'm now leaning to the GOG POH http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8395/ --

I think you convinced me to talk with GOG. John -- the guy in the videos, right? So I just cl and ask for John then?

thanks

Hi Mike,
A few things come to mind:
1) I think you may have seen the other thread- about how to properly evaluate a Radiant Cut- if not, please have a look.
2) in terms of the ASET- we're working now on trying to devise better ways of interpreting the data.
3) Other brands have been suggested. I can't speak for these these alternate brands other than to say they are NOT following the design of the inventor of the cut.
This may or may not be important to you - but I truly hope you can view some Original Radiant Cut Diamonds to get a good feel- I've also published many videos that illustrate the look.

 

[yssie]

Hi Mike,
A few things come to mind:
1) I think you may have seen the other thread- about how to properly evaluate a Radiant Cut- if not, please have a look.

I am all for helping people better interpret ASET for Radiant but nothing in your thread has been provided to improve or change the interpretation of ASET for colorless diamonds.

P.S. > I left you a reply and Garry H did as well which have remained unanswered by you in your own thread.

The stuff on Fancy Yellow colored diamonds has no relevance to this consumers choices. The goals for cutting a Fancy Yellow are usually different from that of colorless diamonds and they should not be confused or marketed/sold as the same.

3) Other brands have been suggested. I can't speak for these these alternate brands other than to say they are NOT following the design of the inventor of the cut.

The original radiant cut by Stan Grossbard is very clearly marketed with a spread maximization goal in mind and a minnimum standard surface area for each carat weight. Also implicit in the design is a weight retention goal as well.

Satisfying these two goals often detracts from the a pure brightness and fire related goal which are focussed on and achieved more successfully than the ORC by the two newer brands being considered by psumike.

------------------------
But they're clearly symmetric in facet pattern, visibly so IRL, and designed for RB-like sharp & bold light return w/ a differently shaped outline, and they won't have the Endless Uniform Tub of Glitter effect that I saw - if that's the look that mike wants then Lucere/PoH aren't going to fit the bill. If bright red ASET is also a goal a cut-cornered 4chevron princess would be a better bet than either of these.

All depends on what Mike wants.

 

[yssie]

But they're clearly symmetric in facet pattern, and designed for RB-like light return w/ a differently shaped outline!

The lucere is not designed for hearts and arrows and does not to possess such an appearance. It is far from the appearance of a round especially with its step cut crown.

Both the POH and Lucere have a lower order of symmetry than a round in faceting and virtual facets, this combined with their outline shape leads me to beleive they should not be confused by even novices for a round brilliant.

ffs I edited to clarify - my point is not that one might be confused (it would after all be rather difficult for even a novice to mistake square for round!), my point is that neither of these shapes will have the "Endless Uniform Tub of Glitter" effect that I saw in ORC.

I have seen PoH in-person, and I have seen ORC in-person, and they are very, very different. PoH *does* have a clearly identifiable radially symmetric facet pattern IRL, and is much more of the mix of big and small flashes and twinkles that my RBs show than it is uniform twinkle and glitter throughout. I have not seen Lucere but from photos & video it looks to me to resemble PoH more than ORC in terms of both appearance and type of light return


PoH - http://vimeo.com/3203399
Lucere - http://vimeo.com/18546344


ETA that's why I suggested princesses if he can't find a generic radiant to his liking - they'll have the bold/bright/crisp light return that Mike seems to seek w/ the red in ASET, but enough chevrons and without head-on obstruction even very optically symmetric stones look haphazard - to me, anyway! Thoughts?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Mike,
A few things come to mind:
1) I think you may have seen the other thread- about how to properly evaluate a Radiant Cut- if not, please have a look.

I am all for helping people better interpret ASET for Radiant but nothing in your thread has been provided to improve or change the interpretation of ASET for colorless diamonds. P.S. > I left you a reply and Garry H did as well which have remained unanswered by you in your own thread.

The stuff on Fancy Yellow colored diamonds has no relevance to this consumers choices. The goals for cutting a Fancy Yellow are usually different from that of colorless diamonds and they should not be confused or marketed/sold as the same.

3) Other brands have been suggested. I can't speak for these these alternate brands other than to say they are NOT following the design of the inventor of the cut.

The original radiant cut by Stan Grossbard is very clearly marketed with a spread maximization goal in mind and a minnimum standard surface area for each carat weight. Also implicit in the design is a weight retention goal as well.

Satisfying these two goals often detracts from the a pure brightness and fire related goal which are focussed on and achieved more successfully than the ORC by the two newer brands(The Lucere and Princess of Hearts) being considered by psumike.
I think a good diamond salesman who continues to market/promote/sell the ORC and generic radiant cuts should also understand the design of their competitors diamonds as well.

Why do I feel we know each other.....

There's a lot of presumption in your post- mixed with slanted "facts"
Stones cut for weight retention.....well, that would include every single polished diamond.
Do you think the cutter of a super ideal does not try for the largest possible stone that meets their requirements?
Furthermore, no discussion of weight is complete if we don't include the price per carat.
How much less is a really well cut G/VS2 radiant ( could be ORC, but does not have to be) less than a standard run of the mill Triple Ex round in a 2ct size, G/SI1 clarity?
Basically, it's cost of Radiant x 1.4 to get the price of the two carat round. That's based on current wholesale price lists- real world might produce an even greater disparity.

Point is- you might be getting a stone that uses more of the rough as compared to round, but there's commensurate savings involved.

We're talking about a natural mined substance- so decisions on how to use it that may actually save more of the original rough diamond, and produce a unique and beautiful result and allow a person to buy a well cut 2 ct diamond for that much less than the round sound like a pretty good alternative to me.
I've never suggested the other branded stones you mentioned are not lovely, well cut diamonds- or worth the price. But they are not
"better"

 

[Dreamer_D]

OK, I can ask.

Any thoughts about the J color? I really like the size and look, its the color when compairing that I'm stuck on now.

Does anyone think J is too far our of range?

Have you seen a J colored diamond with a cut like this? It will likely have a perceptible warmth to it in most lighting. You may or may not like that look!

Just watched the video and for me the clear winner is the POH, I like the faceting and I suspect it will be a brightter more eye catching stone, I also think G color is a the perfect sweet spot. The Lucere looks a little too random and scattered for my taste. It seems to have a "crushed ice" appearance that does not appeal to my eye. But what are you after here? You started out looking for a radiant... did you want a true radiant with that type of faceting, or just a square/rectangular diamond?

 

[JulieN]

OK, I can ask.

Any thoughts about the J color? I really like the size and look, its the color when compairing that I'm stuck on now.

Does anyone think J is too far our of range?

I didn't think the size difference between these two was worth going to a J color.

 

[psumike]

Here is another view of them in daylight. http://vimeo.com/35035324

I'm trying to balance the fact that she wanted a 2.0 ct while still not getting something that is an eyesore. I dont want to dissapoint her by saying it is 1.82 <sigh> but "G" in color(and look at all this paperwork ASET, IS, Sarin, etc -- that may not mean anything to her).

Tough decision time for me

I'm going with a tiffany style solitare platinum -- so maybe not so bad for j?

 

[CharmyPoo]

I know the size is really tempting but the J may be more off putting. Both diamonds are gorgeous but like Dreamer .. i seem to also like the POH better. They are both gorgeous and I am happy to see these videos.

 

[CharmyPoo]

It could be my screen but that video really doesn't seem to show accurate color to me. It seems way to yellow to me. No way a G looks that yellow.