Quick Divorce Help for Friend

[partgypsy]

This thread has given me a lot of food for thought. Overall I am a pretty independent person. I have been financially independent from my parents since I walked away with my bachelors degree. I moved to another state, got a PhD and have done a post-doc and worked competitive jobs with very little support from my immediate family. My ex did give me emotional support (as I gave to him) but when the chips were down, he was not willing to really be there for me. Even when we had big expenses or one time I lost my job, he would say things like "everything is going to be okay". But in reality was not willing to work more than 2 days a week or give up anything on his favored schedule and lifestyle. Because I let him treat me that way, he didn't back me up or was consistent in house rules, my youngest modeled his behavior big time. She is both very clingy but bossy of me and we get into power conflicts. I inherited these problems. I work full time and have the kids the majority of the time. There is less time, money, and resources available. The only saving grace is that I was functionally living as a single parent years before he left so it wasn't much of a shock. Harsh as it is, your friend is going to have to put on her big boy pants. I'm going to have to put on my big boy pants! If the father has opted out she is going to have to figure out how to be the authority figure and make sure her kids respect her. This is really important.

 

[TooPatient]

Having seen what my mother went through -- is STILL going through -- I knew I had to get a career that would let me take care of myself. DH is great. We will (hopefully) have a long happy marriage. But I will have choices! My mother stayed in abusive relationships because she has no real skills. She can't live on what a school lunch lady makes. She is at the mercy of all those around her making sure she is taken care of.

Every kid should learn that marriage is a partnership and all that. Not to walk away too easily. Whatever good people want them to learn. They should also learn that sometimes things happen in life and you HAVE to be able to take care of yourself. It doesn't have to be cheating or a abusive partner. It could be drugs, alcoholism, depression, unexpected death, and so much more. There is also the possibility of your partner becoming physically unable to work (or even just laid off) and it falls to you to make enough to care for your family -- in the case of medical with lots of extra medical expenses in addition to regular expenses.

 

[Jambalaya]

Jambalaya,

Sometimes I think people have a hard time seeing things when picking partners because it’s an emotional, not logical, decision. And we want them to be who we want them to be, so ignore what might be red flags sometimes. But sometimes people surprise us too, for good and bad.

As for the power dynamic, you present a fairly idealistic view. The truth is that almost no one hires out cooking, cleaning, laundry, child care (other than day care), so without a SAHP, most people would just do that stuff themselves. So it’s a false economy to argue the cost of hiring that out. My experience is that whoever has the money typically gets the greatest say in how it’s spent (not just in marriage). If you need someone more than they need you, that’s a power difference. If they will be fine without you but you can’t say the same, they can leave; you can’t. So you end up having to accept things that they don’t. Dependency isn’t a relationship of equals. It’s why we have laws to protect the vulnerable (employees, children, the sick, the elderly, etc.).

Hi cmd,

Honestly, I know plenty of SAHPs who haven't earned a dime in twenty years or more, who are supremely self-confident and don't consider that they need their partners more than vice versa. If you make clear that you value yourself, others will, too. They see the marital pot as one and their contribution as just as valuable, and their husbands need them in ways that aren't financial (support, intimacy, etc.) I suppose it also depends on how materialistic someone is. If they need a big house in a prestigious hood, then yes, I guess a non-working spouse does need a working one more. When much younger I was in a long relationship that wasn't equal economically. But I always knew that I'd be very happy in a small apt a long drive from anywhere, if it came to that...I didn't need him, so when I wanted to leave, I did. My version of freedom is about having my health, and being able to look at myself in the mirror. However, I have been stunned at the materialism of some acquaintances over the years...it's as if they will just shrivel up if they don't have a gold-rimmed lifestyle. They would definitely need the richer partner!

But perhaps it's easy for me to say. I've always kept my independence. Perhaps some/many SAHPs DO feel the way you describe, which is a pity. A person's value is nothing to do with their monetary value.

J xxx

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

A person's value is nothing to do with their monetary value.

J xxx

Well said, Jambalaya and very true.

 

[Jambalaya]

Jamba--you are good friend! She is fortunate to have your support.
Getting the financials of the divorce mediated is one hurdle. She will have many more.
She, and her children, will have to adjust to her returning to FT work. Thankfully they do not have to sell the home for 18 months so that gives them a little breathing room.

Just out of curiosity---is her ex a mid-to-late 40's guy? Is he having a stereotypical mid-life crisis? If this is the case, there is the possibility that after he gets done partying and spending (and has to start paying maintenance and child support) he will decide he wants to reconcile. Just a heads up.

Long term--the hardest part of divorce for many is having to continue having contact with ex regarding the kids and visitation. That can be really tough, especially if he is being difficult to deal with.

Continue to be her sounding board---she really needs it!

Thanks, Elizabeth. Yes, her ex is EXACTLY what you describe. Mid to late 40s, he went to the gym, dropped a lot of weight, became obsessed with the gym, came home with a massive tattoo all over his back, etc. etc. She admits that she did neglect him and their relationship in favor of the kids. But he should have talked to her, not had affairs!

It's been a long, tough year for her and I have been very concerned about her, about the stress of it all - her family lives far away - and I feel some sense of relief for her that at least a settlement is hammered out and she can begin to move forward. He did say recently that he'll regret it all forever and is it too late? She was like, hell yeah, it's too late! Duh!

I agree that some of the hardest parts are yet to come. Someone I know who divorced years ago said that the divorce can only do one thing: end a marriage. It can't fix all the other stuff - the battles over the kids, their fractured co-parenting relationship, the jealousy each is likely to feel when one finds a serious partner, the kids' hurt, etc.

I'm still somewhat aghast that someone could ruin their marriage to such a lovely person as my friend. Some of the divorces I've seen do not surprise me - each was as good as the other at hurting their spouse. But my friend is one of the nicest people I've ever met in my life. OK, maybe she did focus on the kids too much. He could have just sat her down and talked to her. And if she wouldn't listen, he should have expressed himself forcefully until she did listen. "I am dying of loneliness and neglect here" is better than "I've had an affair." (But then, I guess who wants to ask for attention?)

The divorce is going through and it's too late for them. I just hope each of them have learned from it.

 

[Jambalaya]

No @Jambalaya I haven’t heard from her for over a year. I assume she’s moved on to another friend. I had seen her do this before, but, I’m the kind of person who always tries to be there for their friends. Their failings are theirs, not mine.

Absolutely right, Austina! You did the right thing being there for a friend who was going through one of the worst times of her life. It doesn't matter that she disappeared; you did the right thing.

Having invested so much already, why don't you get in touch and see if you can resurrect the friendship? You say she didn't need you anymore, but that's just your reading of the situation...for all you know, after it was all over and the dust had settled, and reality set in, she may have been fighting depression. I know I find it very difficult to get things done and reach out to people when I'm feeling low.

She might even think that you're the one who stopped calling! Crossed wires, etc.

 

[Jambalaya]

This thread has given me a lot of food for thought. Overall I am a pretty independent person. I have been financially independent from my parents since I walked away with my bachelors degree. I moved to another state, got a PhD and have done a post-doc and worked competitive jobs with very little support from my immediate family. My ex did give me emotional support (as I gave to him) but when the chips were down, he was not willing to really be there for me. Even when we had big expenses or one time I lost my job, he would say things like "everything is going to be okay". But in reality was not willing to work more than 2 days a week or give up anything on his favored schedule and lifestyle. Because I let him treat me that way, he didn't back me up or was consistent in house rules, my youngest modeled his behavior big time. She is both very clingy but bossy of me and we get into power conflicts. I inherited these problems. I work full time and have the kids the majority of the time. There is less time, money, and resources available. The only saving grace is that I was functionally living as a single parent years before he left so it wasn't much of a shock. Harsh as it is, your friend is going to have to put on her big boy pants. I'm going to have to put on my big boy pants! If the father has opted out she is going to have to figure out how to be the authority figure and make sure her kids respect her. This is really important.

Agree with all, partgypsy, and I'm sorry that you're going through such tough times, too. Since you have the kids the majority of the time, I guess that means you have a greater opportunity to influence them. Which is good!

 

[Jambalaya]

Having seen what my mother went through -- is STILL going through -- I knew I had to get a career that would let me take care of myself. DH is great. We will (hopefully) have a long happy marriage. But I will have choices! My mother stayed in abusive relationships because she has no real skills. She can't live on what a school lunch lady makes. She is at the mercy of all those around her making sure she is taken care of.

Every kid should learn that marriage is a partnership and all that. Not to walk away too easily. Whatever good people want them to learn. They should also learn that sometimes things happen in life and you HAVE to be able to take care of yourself. It doesn't have to be cheating or a abusive partner. It could be drugs, alcoholism, depression, unexpected death, and so much more. There is also the possibility of your partner becoming physically unable to work (or even just laid off) and it falls to you to make enough to care for your family -- in the case of medical with lots of extra medical expenses in addition to regular expenses.

I agree, TooPatient. You just never, ever know what's going to happen in life. But I can see how SAHPs end up being SAHPs. Two careers plus 2-3 kids is crazy busy, and if one earns enough, it's so easy when everything is going well for the lesser earner to give up their job. Especially when you reason that both parents are missing the kids' childhoods.

I don't know what the answer is or how families should best manage. There's no doubt that some SAHPs are left utterly high and dry. I came across a blog called Happy Hausfrau - I LOVE her writing - but her situation is sobering. She had four kids, husband had affairs and left, initially she got 6k per month alimony and child support, but he lost his job and she had to provide for all four kids with no job skills, and became extremely poor - had to reply on food banks and the generosity of her community. But how does a SAHP parent keep marketable? There has to be another way apart from both parents having full-on careers and killing themselves with all the stress of dual careers and multiple kids.

 

[cmd2014]

Hi cmd,

Honestly, I know plenty of SAHPs who haven't earned a dime in twenty years or more, who are supremely self-confident and don't consider that they need their partners more than vice versa. If you make clear that you value yourself, others will, too. They see the marital pot as one and their contribution as just as valuable, and their husbands need them in ways that aren't financial (support, intimacy, etc.) I suppose it also depends on how materialistic someone is. If they need a big house in a prestigious hood, then yes, I guess a non-working spouse does need a working one more. When much younger I was in a long relationship that wasn't equal economically. But I always knew that I'd be very happy in a small apt a long drive from anywhere, if it came to that...I didn't need him, so when I wanted to leave, I did. My version of freedom is about having my health, and being able to look at myself in the mirror. However, I have been stunned at the materialism of some acquaintances over the years...it's as if they will just shrivel up if they don't have a gold-rimmed lifestyle. They would definitely need the richer partner!

But perhaps it's easy for me to say. I've always kept my independence. Perhaps some/many SAHPs DO feel the way you describe, which is a pity. A person's value is nothing to do with their monetary value.

J xxx

Jambalaya,

I know lots of women of my mother's and my grandmother's generations who stayed in less than ideal relationships because they would not have been able to support themselves or their children if they left. They also bit their tongues a lot too, because they needed their spouses to stay (and turned blind eyes to affairs, drinking, gambling, and other boorish behaviour). I suspect many women are in a similar situation now.

I think it's one thing to have few good paying job prospects when you are young and childless, when you can leave, live like a student, and find another path in life. It's another one altogether if you are older and have children depending on you. It is sobering to think "how would I pay for food, rent, medical insurance, a car, etc., while supporting children" if you haven't worked in years and if you don't have some sort of job skills. It might be interesting to ask your friends what they would do if...(he died, he gambled, he struggled with addictions, he got sick and couldn't work, he lost his job, he had affairs...). Maybe they think they'd be well cared for with life insurance, disability insurance, by savings until something else came along, or with a cushy divorce settlement. Maybe it's true. Often it's not. I think things are easy when a relationship is functional and everyone is happy. The rubber hits the road though when things go wrong...

 

[monarch64]

I’m chiming in to say that I’m also very independent, and never wanted to stop working altogether to be a SAHP. In fact, the first year of my daughter’s life, I worked full time and her father stayed at home (worked from home as well.).

The year leading up until I left...he decided to buy into a business without saying a word to me. Then he was gone for 5-6 nights a week for almost a year. I expressed my unhappiness MANY times. I didn’t have an affair, but I knew my worth and I knew I wasn’t going to wither away waiting around for my spouse to live out HIS dream. I fell out of love with him every time he neglected the marriage to pursue his goals and pour all of his energy into outside ventures. So it happens to women, too. I had a very good friend for years leading up to the point when I left...and I knew I’d end up falling for him. I left before it got to that point, because I didn’t want to be “that *******” who had an affair. That just seemed so cliche and gross and middle-aged. I didn’t give a whit about money or child support or alimony or the house. I packed up and left and rented an adorable place nearby. I have a lot of work experience and connections, though, and I knew I’d be fine on my own with zero help from him. And I am.

My first marriage (yes, I’m 0-2 now!) ended because that guy was just a dick. And I had no problem leaving him, either. All that held me back that time was feeling stigmatized for being a divorcee. Lol, why did I give a hoot about what anyone else thought? My life, my decisions! I feel very sorry for people out there who think they’re stuck. You’re as stuck as you allow yourself to be.

 

[Jambalaya]

Yeah, you really cannot give a crap about what other people think. I'd rather be stigmatized and thrown out of an entire community than live in a bad marriage, and am grateful that divorce is more acceptable these days than it's ever been. (I don't actually think divorcees are stigmatized thess days; I was just making a point.)

It goes the other way, too. Women who want to forgive affairs and bad behavior, take him back and work on making things right also face disapproval from friends and family for trying to make it work. My friend had those concerns when she was trying to work things out with her husband.

So one group of people will disapprove if you don't stay, and another group will disapprove if you do! You really can't win and trying to please others or caring what they think is truly a zero-sum game.

 

[Jambalaya]

Jambalaya, The rubber hits the road though when things go wrong...

Relationships are like acute medical situations...Everything's absolutely fine until it isn't.

 

[TooPatient]

I agree, TooPatient. You just never, ever know what's going to happen in life. But I can see how SAHPs end up being SAHPs. Two careers plus 2-3 kids is crazy busy, and if one earns enough, it's so easy when everything is going well for the lesser earner to give up their job. Especially when you reason that both parents are missing the kids' childhoods.

I don't know what the answer is or how families should best manage. There's no doubt that some SAHPs are left utterly high and dry. I came across a blog called Happy Hausfrau - I LOVE her writing - but her situation is sobering. She had four kids, husband had affairs and left, initially she got 6k per month alimony and child support, but he lost his job and she had to provide for all four kids with no job skills, and became extremely poor - had to reply on food banks and the generosity of her community. But how does a SAHP parent keep marketable? There has to be another way apart from both parents having full-on careers and killing themselves with all the stress of dual careers and multiple kids.

Looking from the outside and not in that situation, I can say there must be a way. That may not be true for everyone so I don't want to over generalize. Just tossing out some ideas as I was thinking about this earlier today...

Part time once kids are in school.

Take continuing education classes or work towards the next degree up or one that compliments the existing. (Slowly enough to not die of course load on top of family!)

Certificate programs online such as Udacity. (Free unless you want a certificate then it is $200/month)

Contribute to open source, write papers to relevant journals, blog, etc. Unpaid but great resume items.

Volunteer work that fits the career they are keeping current.

Meetup events (once a month even) to stay in touch with people in the field and current on new things being used.

Teach a related class at the local college (online can be done fully remotely or do a once weekly class).

 

[Austina]

@Jambalaya when I hadn’t heard from my friend last year, I sent her a Christmas card, telling her that I hoped all was well with her and that it’d been a while, and nothing!

 

[AGBF]

Well, it doesn't seem like there are any guarantees in divorce, Deb, given the stories I'm reading here! Perhaps your husband wouldn't lose as much as you think....it seems to be a total crapshoot and also very dependent on which state you file in.

The current situation sounds very workable at present, but what if either of you meet someone else?

This thread is not about me, so I wasn't going to answer this. I am rereading many responses to this thread on a still morning, however, and decided to do so.

My husband had a "girlfriend" for several years. He used to leave our house every weekend and spend it with her. I knew a little bit about her. The relationship is now over. She was not the first woman he had seen, but was definitely the one with whom he had the most serious relationship. They did not want to get married, however. I was not thrilled that he introduced her to our next door neighbors in Virginia, because I had been extremely close to the woman in that couple, having lunch with her every week when I lived there. But my husband and I do not have a romantic or sexual relationship. And I do not want him to be unhappy.

If we need to divorce, we will. I am legally still a Virginia resident so it will be under Virginia law and I know what they mandate: a 50/50 split for couples like us. We have been married for over 40 years.

Deb

 

[missy]

Yeah, you really cannot give a crap about what other people think. I'd rather be stigmatized and thrown out of an entire community than live in a bad marriage, and am grateful that divorce is more acceptable these days than it's ever been. (I don't actually think divorcees are stigmatized thess days; I was just making a point.)

It goes the other way, too. Women who want to forgive affairs and bad behavior, take him back and work on making things right also face disapproval from friends and family for trying to make it work. My friend had those concerns when she was trying to work things out with her husband.

So one group of people will disapprove if you don't stay, and another group will disapprove if you do! You really can't win and trying to please others or caring what they think is truly a zero-sum game.

Just reading this thread now and I didn't read every single post but just wanted to say I am very sorry for anyone going through such a traumatic experience such as divorce. My heart goes out to your friend Jambalaya and all the lovely PSers who are dealing or have gone through this.

I will add (and of course when one has not been in the situation one can only think they know how they would behave so again this is from my point of view never having been in the situation and cannot say with certainty this is exactly what I would do but what I believe I would do) that it is better to be free of a toxic relationship than to be embroiled in one.

No matter how challenging it is to get free and no matter how long one has been in that relationship. Living with negative toxic behavior on an ongoing basis is more than unpleasant. It is damaging and to suffer with it on a dally basis I think could bring emotional/mental damage not just to the woman/partner suffering it but to the children. I think to be free of such a traumatic toxic relationship and start one's life over sounds preferable to the alternative.

And since your friend is still young and has a viable professional career with desirable skills she can make up the money she loses. No amount of money is worth living through hell and putting one's children through hell on a daily basis. JMO and again from a point of view where I have not gone through the experience so conjecture on my part.

And who the heck cares about what others think. I would advise the person dealing with this to stop caring what others think and take care of herself. Lean on those who love you and for the rest just ignore them. They aren't worth the energy. Not at all. Life is hard to begin with. Don't spend the mental energy on those who aren't worth it. You know who your friends are and your true friends love you and don't judge you and are there for you for emotional support and however else they can be there for you. Stop spending the energy worrying about the rest who aren't worth it.

Wishing her and everyone else going through this all the best. The holidays can be a challenging time of year for many people but for those going through divorce and other relationship challenges it is even more difficult a time.

 

[mom2dolls]

Hi Jambalaya,
They were married for 15 years. In California, anything over 10 pretty much guarantees half the assets. It is awful! I say all the time that situations like this are why 48 hrs and Dateline exist . It’s unfair and drives people insane.

 

[Jambalaya]

Personally, I didn't find it insane. He and I split everything we had down the middle and I didn't begrudge him. We were evenly-matched though, asset-wise. But I think that marriage is meant to be for life and if it doesn't work out, I feel that you were one unit, one marital pot, and therefore each new half of what was once a whole should get their half. (If it's a long-ish marriage, over ten years, or perhaps less if one partner has taken significant tie off to have kids, in which case I'd make the 50/50 requirement kick in at more like six years.)

But I've always been good at sharing and am not greedy. If I won 200m on the lottery I'd have no trouble giving a spouse half, even if the break-up was his fault. I mean, I'd still have 100m! I'd walk away with a clear conscience and nobody could complain.

 

[Jambalaya]

So that's my version of marital law. Everything is one pot. You're one unit. For example, most married couple own their home by tenancy-of-the-entirety. This doesn't mean that each spouse owns 50%. It means that each spouse owns 100%. The spouses are indistinguishable as individuals, in other words. One pot for one couple, and half when it all goes pear-shaped. I'd include everything in the pot. You can always do a pre-nup detailing separate property.

Jambalaya law: 1800 ONE POT J-A-M-B-A-L-A-Y-A