Questions for Mr. Zarakhani of d.neadiamonds.com lab created diamonds

[denverappraiser]

Dear Alexei,

Thank you for coming onto the forum to answer questions about your company and your products and thank you to the admin Andrey for allowing this discussion in the first place. This thread represents a flexing of the rules of Pricescope and it''''s not entirely clear to me what we are permitted to discuss here and I have no wish to abuse your generosity. Hopefully the admin will let us know if something is inappropriate.

Alexei, can you please start this discussion with a brief introduction to your company and a brief explanation of how you grow diamonds?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

ps. We LOVE pictures.

 

[Alexei Zarakhani]

Dear Neil,

Thank you for starting this thread. However, it''s still not clear for me if have PS Administration'' blessing to discuss those previously forbidden issues and to what extent. I discussed that matter with Leonid a couple of years ago and we didn''t find common ground.

Andrey?

 

[psadmin]

Just to clarify to everyone. For educational purposes this thread has been given approval.

Alexei thank you for taking your time to educate us.

 

[Alexei Zarakhani]

Thank you, PS Admin, for allowing an education content.

Now, briefly answering to Neil''s question on D.Nea. I must admit, I''m wearing two hats - one being a managing director of Advanced Optical Technologies Corporation (AOTC), a producer of synthetic, lab-created, lab-grown, cultured, man-made and so on diamonds;and the other being a chairman of D.Nea which is a subsidiary of AOTC, a JV with Pearlman''s Jewelers (I guess, Bill Pearman is well known to PS), our web-based retail front-end, our market research tool. In short, D.Nea has many functions, but its main objective is to bring laboratory created diamonds to a high end consumer. D.Nea works with well known designer houses - Ritani, Jane Taylor, Kretchmer and many others. It also markets loose diamonds. One can go at D.NEA and take a look.
Speaking about AOTC, it produces diamonds using HPHT method. For larger stones we use BARS type presses (almost the same as Gemesis''), for smaller stones we use mini-belt type presses which allow to grow a dozen of stones at a time. AOTC grows yellow diamonds in several hues - pure yellows of different intensity and "traditional" vivid orange yellow stones; blue diamonds - from light blue to fancy intense blue and colorless stones in D to J colors.
AOTC is a vertically integrated company, we do not sell rough to manufacturers and keep product under our control. Every stone above 1 ct (rough) we cut in Antwerp. Every polished stone above 30 pts is graded with one of major gem laboratories (GIA, EGL, IGI) and laser inscribed as AOTC CREATED.
That will, probably, do for the beginning.

 

[nclrgirl]

Mr. Z,

From the perspective of someone in the lab-created diamond industry, how do you envision the future of your industry? Is it growing in terms of sales, research, etc?

I hope that this question is ok. PS Admin, I apologize and please alert me if it was not.

Thank you

 

[oldminer]

I would be very much interested in the creation of smaller size, fancy color, faceted master sets for grading purposes and creating increased uniformity among the various laboratories and appraisal firms. Maybe in your future planning you would consider this a way to further integrate the synthetic products into the mainstream, natural diamond trade.

 

[EEFranklin]

First off, thank you to Andrey and the PS community for allowing these discussions, and being flexible for the sake of education.

My name is Eric Franklin, and I am the CEO of D.NEA. As Alexei stated, we are the retail front-end for AOTC, a synthetic diamond producer. We were formerly Adia Diamonds (In case you heard of it), but did some rebranding earlier this year to put a stronger emphasis on finished designer jewelry. My office is in the same building as Bill Pearlman (MePearl53), in Battle Creek, MI. If anyone is interested in seeing these diamonds, stop by or let me know. I have met Mrs. Salvo on her visit, and I think one or two other PSers. We deal direct with the public, so should have some insight into the consumer related questions.

I know there were many questions mixed in with the related threads, but for sake of cleanliness, could we get any questions re-asked in this thread? I hope that isn''t an inconvenience, and we will do our best to answer.

I have hundreds of pictures, and will post a few shortly. Any requests? Loose, mounted, groups, technical photos?

 

[denverappraiser]

Yes, Bill Pearlman is well known and well regarded here.

Does AOTC manufacture (grow, culture, synthesize, etc.) diamonds for purposes other than the jewelry industry? If so, I would love to hear about some of these other industries and your thoughts as a manufacturer on the future of the MMD business. Is it about jewelery or something else entirely?

Are all diamonds sold at d.nea produced by AOTC?

Photo requests? Technical education photos please. Tools, uncut crystals, examples of how things look during the various steps of the process. I, of course, understand that certain things fall under the category of trade secrets but I'ld love to see whatever you are willing to release.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/11/2008 12:46:59 AM
Author:strmrdr
Welcome to PS.

I have several general educational questions for you.

When possible please answer them in a general manner as related the the industry as a whole rather than specific to your company.

Where do you see lab diamonds fitting into the market today?

Where do you see the market for lab diamonds 10 years from now?

How do you see pricing of lab diamonds working in future in relation to naturals? and why?

Can you give an overview of the processes available to create them and

how does the final product differ?

Do you see a large opportunity with the increasing prices of natural

diamonds?

Can production scale to more than just a blip on the diamond market?

Thank you for your time and consideration.

storm

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[iheartscience]

Hi-interesting thread!

I''m especially interested in how your lab created diamonds are made, what they are made of, and how exactly they differ from natural diamonds.

Do the diamonds you create start off as rough and then get cut?

I''m also interested in the performance of these diamonds. Do you cut them to the same parameters as a natural diamond is cut to regarding angles, table %, depth %, etc?

Are there different cut grades for your lab created diamonds? Do you create super ideal cut diamonds?

Thank you for your time!

 

[NeverEndingUpgrade]

This is nice, because when I tried to post about this same topic, my post was removed!!!!!!

 

[Alexei Zarakhani]

Wow!

So many questions! Thank you! I apologize I won''t be able to answer promptly for I have to carry on my day-to-day duties. But, for sure,I''m going to answer them all. Besides, Eric Franklin will help me to do some.

 

[purrfectpear]

I popped onto the d.nea website a few days ago. I looked at the white loose diamonds you had listed (2) and checked out the specs on the 1 round brilliant. I guess I was sort of surprised to see that you chose EGL as the grading lab (generally not considered the most accurate at least here on PS) and that the symmetry and polish were only graded as "good".

Maybe I have the wrong idea about lab grown diamonds. I think I assumed that they were hard to grow, but that they would have less inclusions or other issues that cutters had to deal with in earth mined stones. Based on my assumptions I thought most of your lab grown white diamonds would be cut to the most exacting standards, polish, and symmetry for the maximum retail value? I would have thought they'd have been sent to GIA to further increase the sales potential.

I know you aren't here trying to drum up retail business, but could you perhaps explain a little about how you don't end up with perfect stones as far as the things you can control through cutting like symmetry, polish, and cut parameters? I'm really just being curious. I probably expected a lab grown diamond to be closer to a synthetic. White, inclusion free, and cut up to the skill of the cutter?

Also again just from curiousity, what do you consider to be the advantage of lab grown (other than the obvious issues some have with mining ethics)? Do you think there would have been a niche for these as jewelry given the almost same cost, if mining had not become such a hot topic?

Thanks for satisfying our curiousity about this new technology.

 

[EEFranklin]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:09:28 PM
Author: oldminer
I would be very much interested in the creation of smaller size, fancy color, faceted master sets for grading purposes and creating increased uniformity among the various laboratories and appraisal firms. Maybe in your future planning you would consider this a way to further integrate the synthetic products into the mainstream, natural diamond trade.

David,

We have diamonds from .01ct and up and do have faceted color masters in fancy yellow, blue and pink (around .15-.20cts each). We also work with the grading labs to help them properly understand and identify synthetic diamonds. GHI has recently released a book that covers the technical aspects of laboratory-grown diamonds.

 

[Alexei Zarakhani]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:04:43 PM
Author: nclrgirl


From the perspective of someone in the lab-created diamond industry, how do you envision the future of your industry? Is it growing in terms of sales, research, etc?




Thank you

Dear nclrgirl,

This is a really big question. The future of a jewelry-related part of synthetic diamond industry, in my view, depends, on one hand, on availability of the product and, on the other hand, on positioning of this product, on marketing, on educating of consumers. I''m an optimist - the future is very bright.
Yes, this industry is growing in terms of sales and acceptance. It really started to get traction several years ago. There are two major jewelry markets: bridal and fashion. In bridal, where D.Nea currently maintains a unique position, we cater to people that wouldn''t be considering a mineral diamonds as bridal for known ethical reasons (conflict-free, environmentally friendly, etc.). In fashion market, prices (which are significantly less compared to those of natural diamonds)and availability of our colored diamonds drive sales.

 

[Alexei Zarakhani]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:21:10 PM
Author: denverappraiser


Does AOTC manufacture (grow, culture, synthesize, etc.) diamonds for purposes other than the jewelry industry? If so, I would love to hear about some of these other industries and your thoughts as a manufacturer on the future of the MMD business. Is it about jewelery or something else entirely?


Are all diamonds sold at d.nea produced by AOTC?


Photo requests? Technical education photos please. Tools, uncut crystals, examples of how things look during the various steps of the process. I, of course, understand that certain things fall under the category of trade secrets but I''ld love to see whatever you are willing to release.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

Neil,

Several years ago AOTC used to produce diamonds for certain industrial applications such a scalpel blades, dies for wire drawing, nozzles, etc. But it abandoned those markets because the demand for jewelry-related markets started to outstrip our capacity. Off course, we switched to a higher margin product.

Just a personal remark, man-made diamonds is not a right term. All MMDs, both synthetic and mineral, that later set into jewely and sold to consumers are polished diamonds. It is a man that unlocks beauty, brilliance and sparkle of a diamond. In that respect every polished diamond is MMD.

Currently, all diamonds that are offered through D.Nea are produced by AOTC. We are working with other producers (Gemesis, Chatham, Apollo) to make D.Nea producer neutral provided that a high standard in respect to color, clarity, make, etc. will be maintained.

At AOTC we have a policy not to provide any graphic information concerning production stages for our diamonds. Instead, we are gladly showing our finished products - loose polished stones. I may be mistaken, but I would not be interested to how this or that bolt will be screwed into my car, I''d rather be interested in design and driving performance of it.

 

[EEFranklin]

Here are some rough blues and a group of finished whites.

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/12/2008 4:32:38 PM
Author: EEFranklin
Here are some rough blues and a group of finished whites.

Thank you and welcome...

These rough diamonds are unaltered shapes? Thats the shape and structure of the synthetic Diamond when the process is completed?

Or did they go through some cutting?

 

[EEFranklin]

Date: 6/11/2008 12:46:59 AM

Author:strmrdr

Where do you see lab diamonds fitting into the market today?

How do you see pricing of lab diamonds working in future in relation to naturals? and why?

Do you see a large opportunity with the increasing prices of natural diamonds?

storm

As Alexei mentioned, many of our customers come from an ecological or social point of view, where they wouldn''t normally buy a mined diamond. They are also quite popular in the engineering, science and information technology circles. Most of these customers buy them because they are fascinated by the technology and process involved in growing a diamond. The fashion customers are mostly interested in having the colors available at an affordable price. There is no comparison (IMHO) between a blue diamond and blue sapphire. Personally, I see lab-created diamonds co-existing peacefully with the mined diamond market. There will always be people who refuse to wear a lab-grown diamond, but there are also people who refuse to wear a mined diamond.

Though no one knows for sure what the long term pricing will do, I believe synthetics will remain stable, if not actually increase in price because of demand. A 1ct fancy yellow is in the $3,000-$4,000 range. A 1ct fancy blue is in the $9,000-$11,000 range. The whites are priced comparable to mined whites $5,000-$7,000/ct. [Disclaimer]Because we don''t know what the long term price will do, we offer our customers a lifetime trade-up and lifetime buy-back on our diamonds.[/Marketing] (Slap me if that is inappropriate, but I thought it helped answer the question at hand).

There is certainly more opportunity as mined diamonds increase in price, but it is more about consumer choice and making colored diamonds a possibility (how many people have an untreated mined blue diamond? how much $?). The biggest obstacle in acceptance of laboratory created diamonds is probably consumer education. We get requests all the time for people looking for 2-5ct diamonds for $100, which is an unrealistic view of the industry. It will never become a factory that cranks out diamonds by the ton. Growing diamonds is a very capital intensive business and there are very few companies that can commercially do it (AOTC, Gemesis, Apollo, Chatham) since the technology was first developed over 50 years ago. It also costs the same to cut our rough and grade our diamonds as it does any other diamond, so they do share similar cost structures as the mined industry.

Here is a 1.08ct Fancy Intense Yellow SI1.

P.S. Alexei and I are geographically distant, so forgive us if we end up answering the same question twice.

 

[Alexei Zarakhani]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:23:07 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 6/11/2008 12:46:59 AM

Author:strmrdr



Where do you see lab diamonds fitting into the market today?


Where do you see the market for lab diamonds 10 years from now?


How do you see pricing of lab diamonds working in future in relation to naturals? and why?


Can you give an overview of the processes available to create them and


how does the final product differ?


Do you see a large opportunity with the increasing prices of natural


diamonds?


Can production scale to more than just a blip on the diamond market?


Thank you for your time and consideration.


storm

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

#1. Two markets: bridal and fashion. Please see my answer to nclrgirl.
#2. I would say that it easily could be (or add to) 10% to a world diamond market if a corresponding capacity will be built. I''m positive that demand will be there.
#3. It is really producer specific. We, for example, price our whites on par with mineral diamonds and let a customer make an educated chioce. We have a quite a long waiting list for whites over 1 ct. All of them are bridal customers. As for colored diamonds,our prices reflect our cost structure, on one hand, and consumer preferences, on the other. As an example, natural deep blue diamonds enjoy highest prices among blues. But it doesn''t sparcle as much as a light blue one. Our customers prefer to have fancy light blue or fancy blue stone instead a deep blue one. So our deep blues (we rarely produce those) are priced less compared to fancy blues.
#4. We use only HPHT method, I can''t comment on products that my CVD colleagues (Apollo and others) are doing.
#5. We are a part (a tiny one) of a diamond market and diamond industry. Therefore price increase if it''s sustainable and not a speculation works in our favor.
#6. Yes, production can scale as you could see from Gemesis pics. However, it''s a highly capital intensive industry, equipment is not inexpensive these days.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Is the hardness the same as a natural diamond?

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/12/2008 4:21:19 PM
Author: Alexei Zarakhani
Just a personal remark, man-made diamonds is not a right term. All MMDs, both synthetic and mineral, that later set into jewely and sold to consumers are polished diamonds. It is a man that unlocks beauty, brilliance and sparkle of a diamond. In that respect every polished diamond is MMD.

What is your preferred term?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[Alexei Zarakhani]

Date: 6/12/2008 6:34:39 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 6/12/2008 4:21:19 PM

Author: Alexei Zarakhani

Just a personal remark, man-made diamonds is not a right term. All MMDs, both synthetic and mineral, that later set into jewely and sold to consumers are polished diamonds. It is a man that unlocks beauty, brilliance and sparkle of a diamond. In that respect every polished diamond is MMD.

What is your preferred term?


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

Laboratory created diamonds or laboratory grown diamonds. No preference here.
Re: MMD. In the end, we are all man made...

 

[Alexei Zarakhani]

Date: 6/12/2008 6:32:26 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Is the hardness the same as a natural diamond?

Yes, it is the same. Please take a look here

 

[EEFranklin]

Date: 6/12/2008 3:43:14 PM
Author: purrfectpear
I popped onto the d.nea website a few days ago. I looked at the white loose diamonds you had listed (2) and checked out the specs on the 1 round brilliant. I guess I was sort of surprised to see that you chose EGL as the grading lab (generally not considered the most accurate at least here on PS) and that the symmetry and polish were only graded as ''good''.

I understand your concerns with EGL for mined diamonds, however the story is a little different with lab-created diamonds. EGL has been grading lab-grown diamonds since 2001 and AOTC has been sending diamonds to them for grading since at least 2005. GIA just recently announced they will be grading lab-grown diamonds (I think it was last December). So, for all but our newest couple batches, EGL was our only real option. With our diamonds, we have found EGL has been rather conservative with the grading. For example, Sarin told us this 0.54ct H VS2 should be an E-F color, not H.

Maybe I have the wrong idea about lab grown diamonds. I think I assumed that they were hard to grow, but that they would have less inclusions or other issues that cutters had to deal with in earth mined stones. Based on my assumptions I thought most of your lab grown white diamonds would be cut to the most exacting standards, polish, and symmetry for the maximum retail value? I would have thought they''d have been sent to GIA to further increase the sales potential.

They are very difficult to grow, but they still have inclusions, just like any other diamond. The majority of our stones are VS or SI for clarity, though we do have VVS and rarely IF. Our current whites are experimental, yet successful. As the whites become more production ready, we will be cutting them toward "ideal" standards, and having GIA grade them.

I know you aren''t here trying to drum up retail business, but could you perhaps explain a little about how you don''t end up with perfect stones as far as the things you can control through cutting like symmetry, polish, and cut parameters? I''m really just being curious. I probably expected a lab grown diamond to be closer to a synthetic. White, inclusion free, and cut up to the skill of the cutter?

As with all diamonds, the beauty and quality is really up to the cutter. All of our stones are cut in Antwerp, and we do focus on quality rather than weight. That being said, every diamonds is different and up to the person cutting it. I can''t speculate why the cutter did what he did, but like I said, going forward, our whites will be cut toward ideal standards and the larger and better stones will be certified by GIA. AGS doesn''t currently grade lab-created diamonds, but when they do, we will send them our ideals.

The terminology can be confusing and sometimes mixed-up, so to recap:
synthetic, lab-created, laboratory grown, man-made = all are real diamonds.
simulant = Imitation, CZ, Moissanite, etc. - these may look like a diamond, but do not possess all the same characteristics as a diamond.

Also again just from curiousity, what do you consider to be the advantage of lab grown (other than the obvious issues some have with mining ethics)? Do you think there would have been a niche for these as jewelry given the almost same cost, if mining had not become such a hot topic?


Thanks for satisfying our curiousity about this new technology.

I want to stress that there isn''t a good or bad, right or wrong, advantage or disadvantage, when it comes to mined vs. lab-grown. There is absolutely a niche for these, but the reasoning for choosing one over another is ultimately up to the consumer. Same with choosing between a princess cut and a round brilliant. We are here to educate what our product is, then let you decide whether it fits your desires.

That being said, most of our customer''s diamonds are currently as center diamonds in engagement rings (for the eco, mining and mostly tech reasons mentioned earlier). The rest are in fashion pieces with those customers seeing it as a way to have cost-effective blue and yellow diamonds in their jewelry.

Here is one of my favorite jewelry pieces, the Water/Fire Comet Pendant by Steven Kretchmer with a 0.54ct Fancy Light Blue:

 

[EEFranklin]

Date: 6/12/2008 4:50:47 PM
Author: DiaGem
Thank you and welcome...

These rough diamonds are unaltered shapes? Thats the shape and structure of the synthetic Diamond when the process is completed?

Or did they go through some cutting?

The above picture is the shape of the blue rough unaltered as they come out of the growth units. The yellows come out in more of a pyramid shape, but I don''t have any pictures of those.


Here''s a group shot of polished untreated diamonds:
If anyone wants to see more pictures of loose or mounted, you could take a look through D.NEA''s site. I don''t want to load up the thread with too many pictures (unless people want more pics in the thread?).

 

[somethingshiny]

This is really interesting. Thank you, Andrey for allowing this discussion.

Are the same "impurities" added to lab grown diamonds as that occur naturally to achieve color?

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/12/2008 8:46:32 PM
Author: EEFranklin

Date: 6/12/2008 4:50:47 PM
Author: DiaGem
Thank you and welcome...

These rough diamonds are unaltered shapes? Thats the shape and structure of the synthetic Diamond when the process is completed?

Or did they go through some cutting?

The above picture is the shape of the blue rough unaltered as they come out of the growth units. The yellows come out in more of a pyramid shape, but I don''t have any pictures of those.


Here''s a group shot of polished untreated diamonds:
If anyone wants to see more pictures of loose or mounted, you could take a look through D.NEA''s site. I don''t want to load up the thread with too many pictures (unless people want more pics in the thread?).

Thanks Eric...,

The surface of the blue synthetic rough seems very smooth..., it actually seems *as* it have been polished..., is that the outcome and sign of the "regular and consistent growth" which Clark McEwen said/wrote?

Could you please post images of other examples of different shapes/structured rough? When you get some?


Now..., I have a hypothetical question...

If a potential client wants to acquire synthetic rough material ''only'' for the use of specialty type cuts..., is/will there be possibility? Presuming we are talking about a type of transaction that will be based on transparency and ethical behaviour!

 

[EEFranklin]

Date: 6/13/2008 6:51:03 AM
Author: DiaGem
Thanks Eric...,

The surface of the blue synthetic rough seems very smooth..., it actually seems *as* it have been polished..., is that the outcome and sign of the ''regular and consistent growth'' which Clark McEwen said/wrote?

Yes, this follows what Clark was saying, and again, that picture is unaltered, as they come out of the machine.

Could you please post images of other examples of different shapes/structured rough? When you get some?

That is the only picture of rough I have available. Clark did post a picture of his yellow rough over here. The two colors primarily grow in each of the two respective shapes shown in ours and Clark''s pictures.

Now..., I have a hypothetical question...

If a potential client wants to acquire synthetic rough material ''only'' for the use of specialty type cuts..., is/will there be possibility? Presuming we are talking about a type of transaction that will be based on transparency and ethical behaviour!

I think this is beyond the educational scope of the forum. D.NEA only handles the finished product and doesn''t offer rough to anyone. You could contact Alexei offline and discuss this further with him.

 

[strmrdr]

Have you considered having a cut optimization study done?
If your rough is fairly consistent you could add a ton of money to your bottom line by optimizing for color, performance and yield over just saying cut these.