Question about different certs (EGL-USA)

[Stive85]

Hi Everyone,

Just got a diamond in (one that I posted about here asking for opinions... a 60/60). It is awesome to look at. It is eyeclean to me, but I'm a beginner and I got what seems to be a fair price for it at $3500. If I hold the diamond under a lamp, as close as my view lets me I can see 2 black pinpoints from the side, but cannot notice them from the top. I looked at it through a loupe and I would say si2 is a proper grading, but again I am not a professional.

My questions is. My diamond did not come with a full EGL USA report. I looked into this with the guy I dealt with, the diamond vendor AND EGL USA (the LA lab graded my stone). My came in a small pamphlet with just the basic info on it. This is what I'm told is a consultation report. Vendor said I can get a full report for $70 more, but said all the specs are additional info are online, the only thing missing is a plot diagram.

Am I missing something or is something shady about not having a full report. I personally could care less as long as my diamond checks out. I have two weeks today to return and am having it appraised tomorrow. What is the difference from a full report to this consultation? Especially if all the measurements are given online?

Any info would be great. Here are the specs...


Cut (Shape and Style)
ROUND BRILLIANT
Carat Weight
1.07 CT
Clarity Grade
SI2
Color Grade
H
Cut Grade
IDEAL
Proportions
Measurements
6.68 x 6.66 x 3.96 mm
Table
60%
Depth
59.4%
Crown Height
13.5%
Crown Angle
33.5°
Pavilion Depth
43%
Pavilion Angle
40.8°
Girdle
THIN TO MEDIUM FACETED
Culet
Observations
Finish

Polish
VERY GOOD
Symmetry
VERY GOOD
Fluorescence
MEDIUM BLUE
Comments

IDEAL CUT H & A

 

[Stive85]

I should add that I talked to the appraiser and they said I only need a consultation.

But am I missing something else? Should I have had a full?

 

[ChristineRose]

It appears that the consultation report is an older report that has a plot diagram. Your report may be a mini report.

If it's being sold with an EGL report, you can assume it's overgraded. If it weren't overgraded, they'd have put your report in a drawer and sent the stone to GIA.

The real answer is that if your appraiser is independent and competent, then s/he can answer your questions. I'm fairly sure you can get a plot diagram from him/her as well.

 

[heididdl]

if you are even considing the full EGl I'd rather send it off to GIA for $100 and get an acurately graded report.

 

[Stive85]

It appears that the consultation report is an older report that has a plot diagram. Your report may be a mini report.

If it's being sold with an EGL report, you can assume it's overgraded. If it weren't overgraded, they'd have put your report in a drawer and sent the stone to GIA.

The real answer is that if your appraiser is independent and competent, then s/he can answer your questions. I'm fairly sure you can get a plot diagram from him/her as well.

Thanks for the reply! I've done my research in terms of specs and also with regards to the labs. I know how EGL is regarded around here. But many of the professionals who post here, as well as independent people I've talked to agree that EGL USA isn't to be grouped in with the other labs. Often they are one color off in color and are found to be usually spot on in clarity (I believe a study was done here on pricescope). The diamond I have is eye clean to me and although I'm a novice, I'd be shocked if it were to be grade i1. I'm happy with the sparkle of the stone etc and I definitely get the entire debate about why would a dealer give up 20 percent selling egl cert. but I think there are diamonds with spot on certs from egl usa. I hope I've found one. If its an "I" color... Oh well.

I'm not really following what ur saying about consultation report though? From what I gather it really makes no different. Unless you care about the piece of paper. My diamond specs are online, only thing I'm missing is the plot.

Any other takes?

 

[krisjon]

It's not about caring about a piece of paper - it's about getting what you pay for. Every grade comes with a price increase or reduction. When a stone isn't accurately graded, a grade or two off means you're overpaying. Why do you think stones are sent to labs besides GIA and AGS? It's because softer grading specs means more $. If GIA grades it I color, but EGL USA grades it G, you pay the G premium and it's more profit for the seller. It's as simple as that.

 

[Stive85]

It's not about caring about a piece of paper - it's about getting what you pay for. Every grade comes with a price increase or reduction. When a stone isn't accurately graded, a grade or two off means you're overpaying. Why do you think stones are sent to labs besides GIA and AGS? It's because softer grading specs means more $. If GIA grades it I color, but EGL USA grades it G, you pay the G premium and it's more profit for the seller. It's as simple as that.

Yes, I think for the most part your description of why stones are sent to different labs is correct. But EGL USA has much faster turn around, is cheaper and isn't that poorly regarded in the industry.

I had no fallacy in terms of what I was buying when I looked at EGL USA. But I think you get what your pay for and I think it goes both ways. A GIA 'I' with the same specs, would still be more expensive then an EGL USA 'G'.... even if the EGL report was spot on.

I hope that made sense. But from what I read, reputable PS'ers have said quite openly that EGL USA is not as bad as some people lead on (certainly not 2-4 grades) and often gets a bad name because of the same title as EGL Israel or International.

AGain, I'm a novice, but have read a TON about this very issue.

I plan to post pics when I get a chance. Hopefully I can get some good quality ones for everyone to see.

My main concern was the report issue, but from what I read it doesn't matter, all the specs are online.

 

[AN0NYM0US]

If the stone was accurately graded by EGL why would the vendor leave many hundreds of dollars on the table? Vendors know what they are doing and how to maximize profits. They are the experts here, not you (admittedly). You will not game the system.

 

[WinkHPD]

It's not about caring about a piece of paper - it's about getting what you pay for. Every grade comes with a price increase or reduction. When a stone isn't accurately graded, a grade or two off means you're overpaying. Why do you think stones are sent to labs besides GIA and AGS? It's because softer grading specs means more $. If GIA grades it I color, but EGL USA grades it G, you pay the G premium and it's more profit for the seller. It's as simple as that.

Yes, I think for the most part your description of why stones are sent to different labs is correct. But EGL USA has much faster turn around, is cheaper and isn't that poorly regarded in the industry.

I had no fallacy in terms of what I was buying when I looked at EGL USA. But I think you get what your pay for and I think it goes both ways. A GIA 'I' with the same specs, would still be more expensive then an EGL USA 'G'.... even if the EGL report was spot on.

I hope that made sense. But from what I read, reputable PS'ers have said quite openly that EGL USA is not as bad as some people lead on (certainly not 2-4 grades) and often gets a bad name because of the same title as EGL Israel or International.

AGain, I'm a novice, but have read a TON about this very issue.

I plan to post pics when I get a chance. Hopefully I can get some good quality ones for everyone to see.

My main concern was the report issue, but from what I read it doesn't matter, all the specs are online.

You are correct. At the JCK show in Vegas two years ago It was reported by Rapaport that EGL USA traded at about a 28% discount from a GIA report, whereas an EGL Israel traded at about a 48% discount, so an EGL USA report isn't really THAT poorly regarded in the industry...

Of course, just because an EGL USA is not as bad as an EGL Israel, does not mean that many of us in the industry don't regard them as trash.

Even if an EGL USA is spot on, when and if you ever go to sell it, you will get far less than if it were properly papered with a GIA or AGS report.

Wink

 

[30yearsofdiamonds]

There is very little doubt in my mind that the stone will be an I1 clarity if it were graded by GIA and that is a big drop off in value.

 

[Stive85]

There is very little doubt in my mind that the stone will be an I1 clarity if it were graded by GIA and that is a big drop off in value.

All due respect. But we are missing the question about cert difference. The merits of
egl usa have been debated at length on this forum.

Also... Look at the study done here. 17 stones randomly sent to different labs. Egl usa came back harsher on clarity in 1/3 of cases I believe. Out of the hundreds of threads I've browsed there have been more instances than not of people having these stones and they being right on the money clarity wise

Be that as it may. I'm not arguing their consistency, or anything of the sort. Just saying comments like one above seem to have little basis for their claim. Have you owned these stones? Have you read members posts about them, many of which are in the trade and have been for decades?

I don't plan to sell the stone, but if I do how much do I lose on a $4000 ring? Half? Oh well I guess... Not the end of the world.

 

[ChristineRose]

EGL issues a number of different reports. They do not issue a consultation report. They USED TO issue a consultation report. That report has a plot. They issue only one report without a plot. It's called a mini-report. You probably have a mini-report.

I strongly suspect the reason EGL issues so many reports is that it lets sellers shop around. For example, you can get a "Hearts & Arrows" report for a diamond that has hearts and arrows. And you can leave the clarity plot off for a diamond with some black spots.

Wink points out that the price of an EGL USA stone is 28% less than the same set of grades issued by GIA. Now diamond prices are really tricky because you get a lot of weird factors, like the price jump at one carat, and the lack of interest in off combos like D/I1. But it's been estimated that the "EGL discount" is about 1.5 grades. Actually I suspect 28% is way more than that (based on my mathy geeky analysis, which I will not burden you with), but lets pretend it's 1.5 grades.

Okay, so I send my stone to EGL, and either it's off 0 grades (it happens), 1 grade, or 2 or more grades. What will I do? I know the EGL discount is 1.5 grades. If I got 0, or 1, I put my certificate in a drawer and send my diamond to GIA. That way I get more money. But if I get the coveted 2 or more? I sell the stone for more than it's worth!

I think this process is why the EGL discount is currently more than 1.5 grades. People have figured it out. So it's irrelevant that EGL is "usually" only off one grade. If it were only off one grade, you wouldn't ever have seen that certificate.

My advice is to take the stone to your appraiser. S/he will tell you what you really have and make their own plots. You can then decide if your stone is worth keeping at the price you paid.

 

[Stive85]

EGL issues a number of different reports. They do not issue a consultation report. They USED TO issue a consultation report. That report has a plot. They issue only one report without a plot. It's called a mini-report. You probably have a mini-report.

I strongly suspect the reason EGL issues so many reports is that it lets sellers shop around. For example, you can get a "Hearts & Arrows" report for a diamond that has hearts and arrows. And you can leave the clarity plot off for a diamond with some black spots.

Wink points out that the price of an EGL USA stone is 28% less than the same set of grades issued by GIA. Now diamond prices are really tricky because you get a lot of weird factors, like the price jump at one carat, and the lack of interest in off combos like D/I1. But it's been estimated that the "EGL discount" is about 1.5 grades. Actually I suspect 28% is way more than that (based on my mathy geeky analysis, which I will not burden you with), but lets pretend it's 1.5 grades.

Okay, so I send my stone to EGL, and either it's off 0 grades (it happens), 1 grade, or 2 or more grades. What will I do? I know the EGL discount is 1.5 grades. If I got 0, or 1, I put my certificate in a drawer and send my diamond to GIA. That way I get more money. But if I get the coveted 2 or more? I sell the stone for more than it's worth!

I think this process is why the EGL discount is currently more than 1.5 grades. People have figured it out. So it's irrelevant that EGL is "usually" only off one grade. If it were only off one grade, you wouldn't ever have seen that certificate.

My advice is to take the stone to your appraiser. S/he will tell you what you really have and make their own plots. You can then decide if your stone is worth keeping at the price you paid.

Thanks for the reply! And for answering my question in regards to cert difference.

I'm aware and fully understand the logistics behind "why would a dealer send to egl if..." But I got this stone at a price that reflected this. I am fully content with how it performs and is honestly eye clean to me.

However. I've never heard of anyone contesting egl usa plots? It's always been a color or clarity issue. How would an appraiser differ in that regard? Did I not read that tools that determine plots are regularly inspected? Or is this an entirely different issue?

Thanks again

 

[ChristineRose]

The plot would be the same. What I suspect is that when the appraiser gives you your plot, you will see not only the two black points you noticed, but several others as well. A plot like that might scare off some buyers. If the spots don't bother you, it is a money saving opportunity.

 

[Stive85]

The plot would be the same. What I suspect is that when the appraiser gives you your plot, you will see not only the two black points you noticed, but several others as well. A plot like that might scare off some buyers. If the spots don't bother you, it is a money saving opportunity.

Ohh got ya. Ya I look at the stone as close as I can without eyes blurring and I see nothin face up. Only from side from 3 inches can I see the specs. From 8-10 inches I can't see a thing

 

[AN0NYM0US]

The only way to know if you got what you paid for (or better) is to send the stone to GIA. Everything else is speculation.