Pull the trigger? 1.24 ct, I, VS2, 1.3 HCA, EGL cert

[06pvc]

Why you are still in the return window period, why don't you take it to a pricescope appraiser who has an Idealscope. And get their unbiased opinion of the stone as well as some Idealscope pictures to post and magnified pictures of the stone. I think that will help give you the nesseary information whether you should return it or not.

 

[Dreamer_D]

You are still missing the point about how pricing works for diamonds, I think. You cannot "beat the system". There is nothng *wrong* woth EGL diamonds. But they are overpriced for what they are compared to GIA or AGS.

I hear your argument, but I have not seen anything at that size and cut with a GIA/AGS certificate for the same price. Your argument may be true generally, but no one has been able to tell me what is wrong with the stone so as to not be worth the $3750 price tag. Please do not just continue to repeat that EGL certificates are inferior, but rather identify something wrong with this diamond that would make it worth less than $3750 if it was attached to a GIA/AGS certificate.

The diamond is selling for $3700 because its traits and qualities warrant that on the market. Is there something "wrong" with it? Probably not. Even asking that question tells me that you are not understanding my point: I am saying that you should not buy it because you would pay less for that same diamond if it had a GIA report and was being presented with its GIA equivalent specs. In my opinion, you should look for and buy a GIA stone worth $3800 -- whatever that will buy you! -- because your money is being spent honestly, rather than spending your money on the feeling of a deal or value.

I did a search on the PS search engine and you can get a GIA VG cut with M/N color and SI1/Si2 color for that price online. If you have not seen or found a diamond of that size and cut locally, all that means is you have not looked (or actually, have not been shown) the right stones.

 

[FND3rd]

This is of course sarcasm, but frankly, it's all that's left we can offer you at this point since you refuse to pull your head out of the sand after receiving superb advice from experts.

Your sarcasm adds nothing to the conversation. I have not been asking for advice as much as analysis. I understand there is a strong prejudice against EGL certificates on this board, and that is fine. Unfortunately, some of the posters here, apparently including yourself, are unable to move past that bias to offer any sort of helpful analysis of the stone itself.

 

[farmer gal]

This one might by promising
http://www.exceldiamonds.com/Diamonds-1/GIA-Graded-Round-Diamond-1-3-Carat-Q-Color-VS2-Clarity-150744.html

 

[webdiva]

You are still missing the point about how pricing works for diamonds, I think. You cannot "beat the system". There is nothng *wrong* woth EGL diamonds. But they are overpriced for what they are compared to GIA or AGS.

I hear your argument, but I have not seen anything at that size and cut with a GIA/AGS certificate for the same price. Your argument may be true generally, but no one has been able to tell me what is wrong with the stone so as to not be worth the $3750 price tag. Please do not just continue to repeat that EGL certificates are inferior, but rather identify something wrong with this diamond that would make it worth less than $3750 if it was attached to a GIA/AGS certificate.

Listen to the advice to take it to an appraiser -then they can tell you if it's worth that price. Understand that the EGL cert means nothing - you don't know the true color or clarity of this stone. Once you have those established, you can then compare to a AGS/GIA stone. Otherwise, is like asking how much your 4 bedroom, 1 bath house is worth but not taking into account where the house is. There's a huge amount of leeway that establishes the true value of the diamond.

 

[Dreamer_D]

You are still missing the point about how pricing works for diamonds, I think. You cannot "beat the system". There is nothng *wrong* woth EGL diamonds. But they are overpriced for what they are compared to GIA or AGS.

I hear your argument, but I have not seen anything at that size and cut with a GIA/AGS certificate for the same price. Your argument may be true generally, but no one has been able to tell me what is wrong with the stone so as to not be worth the $3750 price tag. Please do not just continue to repeat that EGL certificates are inferior, but rather identify something wrong with this diamond that would make it worth less than $3750 if it was attached to a GIA/AGS certificate.

Listen to the advice to take it to an appraiser -then they can tell you if it's worth that price. Understand that the EGL cert means nothing - you don't know the true color or clarity of this stone. Once you have those established, you can then compare to a AGS/GIA stone. Otherwise, is like asking how much your 4 bedroom, 1 bath house is worth but not taking into account where the house is. There's a huge amount of leeway that establishes the true value of the diamond.

I do not recommend taking it to an appraiser. Read Denver appraiser's post. You cannot game the system. So it is wasted money to spend on an appraisal for this diamond -- you can just look up GIA stones of 1.2ct and for $3800 and find out what the "true" specs of ths diamond would be.

 

[FND3rd]

Here is another
http://www.uniondiamond.com/AE0304719&ptc=PS

Both links were to the same stone which had a faint brown hue per the GIA cert.

 

[Enerchi]

Why you are still in the return window period, why don't you take it to a pricescope appraiser who has an Idealscope. And get their unbiased opinion of the stone as well as some Idealscope pictures to post and magnified pictures of the stone. I think that will help give you the nesseary information whether you should return it or not.

This sounds like an excellent unbiased approach where you can discuss your stone and its specifics with an expert. They can provide you with the information you are asking for. Check under Resources tab above, appraisers, then plug in your city. An appraisal can be in the $50 - $125 range depending on a variety of things. If you know anyone who has purchased jewellry before, you could get their recommendation as well, but I'd suggest sticking with a PS appraiser while you are still under the return time frame.

 

[webdiva]

You are still missing the point about how pricing works for diamonds, I think. You cannot "beat the system". There is nothng *wrong* woth EGL diamonds. But they are overpriced for what they are compared to GIA or AGS.

I hear your argument, but I have not seen anything at that size and cut with a GIA/AGS certificate for the same price. Your argument may be true generally, but no one has been able to tell me what is wrong with the stone so as to not be worth the $3750 price tag. Please do not just continue to repeat that EGL certificates are inferior, but rather identify something wrong with this diamond that would make it worth less than $3750 if it was attached to a GIA/AGS certificate.

Listen to the advice to take it to an appraiser -then they can tell you if it's worth that price. Understand that the EGL cert means nothing - you don't know the true color or clarity of this stone. Once you have those established, you can then compare to a AGS/GIA stone. Otherwise, is like asking how much your 4 bedroom, 1 bath house is worth but not taking into account where the house is. There's a huge amount of leeway that establishes the true value of the diamond.

I do not recommend taking it to an appraiser. Read Denver appraiser's post. You cannot game the system. So it is wasted money to spend on an appraisal for this diamond -- you can just look up GIA stones of 1.2ct and for $3800 and find out what the "true" specs of ths diamond would be.

Hey - I personally wouldn't, but he doesn't seem to listen to an APPRAISER who knows you can't game the system so perhaps he needs to learn through experience. Or he can just buy it and live in that 4 bedroom house in the 'hood.

 

[onedrop]

Dreamer,

I have and understand the issues. At the advertised price, this ring would still be a good deal at GIA SI2. As for the color, a major deviation would be upsetting, but as this will be set on a yellow gold ring and has a slight blue flourescence, I think I can overlook a slip down to J.

I plan to have the stone appraised immediately upon receipt, and will return during the 30-day return period if the deviations are significant.

Aside from the concerns with EGL International, is there anything on the face of this certificate that would indicate this ring is not a fair deal at $4500/ct?

To go back to your earlier questions:

First, you said you'd go down to a J because of the flourescence. Based upon the pictures you provided, I think we can all agree that this stone is closer to an M. Second, you mentioned being "okay" with an SI2. However, you said yourself that in looking at the stone you can see a feather like inclusion with the naked eye.

Forget about the money aspect for a minute: Is the person you are giving this ring to going to be happy with the final result? Would they be okay with a diamond that shows a lot of yellow tint, and a visible inclusion, and may likely not have the light return and brilliance of a well cut stone? It just seems to me like you are trying to stretch your budget beyond reason and go for size over quality, and therefore are fixated on trying to turn this stone into something that it's not. Why not drop down in size, and get very well cut AGS or GIA stone? I think you and the recipient of your stone would be much happier.

And instead of spending money on an appraisal, I would go to a Jared's if you are near one and compare the stone you have with their Peerless Diamond or try another reputable jeweler that carries GIA or AGS stones where you can make a real and accurate comparison.

You seem to be searching for the answers that you want to hear, instead of taking the advice already given and making a better choice.

 

[FND3rd]

Would they be okay with a diamond that shows a lot of yellow tint, and a visible inclusion, and may likely not have the light return and brilliance of a well cut stone?

I am curious, what makes you think that this stone is not well cut? The HCA and AGA scales do not raise any red flags. Was there something else I overlooked that would indicate this stone is not an ideal cut?

 

[onedrop]

Would they be okay with a diamond that shows a lot of yellow tint, and a visible inclusion, and may likely not have the light return and brilliance of a well cut stone?

I am curious, what makes you think that this stone is not well cut? The HCA and AGA scales do not raise any red flags. Was there something else I overlooked that would indicate this stone is not an ideal cut?

I said "likely" not well cut. I haven't seen the stone in person so I can't (and didn't) make any definitive statement on its performance. Unfortunately, the pictures you posted don't give good indications as to how the stone performs light and brilliance wise. And as far as I know, the HCA is a "weeding out tool" and not a definitive indicator of performance.

 

[FND3rd]

Would they be okay with a diamond that shows a lot of yellow tint, and a visible inclusion, and may likely not have the light return and brilliance of a well cut stone?

I am curious, what makes you think that this stone is not well cut? The HCA and AGA scales do not raise any red flags. Was there something else I overlooked that would indicate this stone is not an ideal cut?

I said "likely" not well cut. I haven't seen the stone in person so I can't (and didn't) make any definitive statement on its performance. Unfortunately, the pictures you posted don't give good indications as to how the stone performs light and brilliance wise. And as far as I know, the HCA is a "weeding out tool" and not a definitive indicator of performance.

I said HCA "does not raise red flags", which implies I was viewing it as a "weeding out tool" and not as a "definitive indicator of performance".

"[L]ikely" means you think there is a greater chance it is not well cut than it is well cut. So, again, what makes you think it is "likely" not well cut, aside from a bias against EGL certs?

Forget about the money aspect for a minute: Is the person you are giving this ring to going to be happy with the final result? Would they be okay with a diamond that shows a lot of yellow tint, and a visible inclusion, and may likely not have the light return and brilliance of a well cut stone?

Are you kidding? My girlfriend loves me to death and does not have a shallow or materialistic bone in her beautiful body. The color of a stone is not going to change that one bit. I hope that all of you and your significant others feel the same way about each other.

 

[06pvc]

I said "likely" not well cut. I haven't seen the stone in person so I can't (and didn't) make any definitive statement on its performance. Unfortunately, the pictures you posted don't give good indications as to how the stone performs light and brilliance wise. And as far as I know, the HCA is a "weeding out tool" and not a definitive indicator of performance.

I think this is a bit unfair. The HCA for the stone is excellent, so i think it is plausible the stone is well cut. The angles could be off, and the symmetry/polish grade could be lower. But I think with the EGL the more off part is going to be cut and color. But again, I think all of us would say you need an idealscope image to get a better idea of how well cut it is.

Step 1) Rule HCA, throw out stones over 2.
Step 2) Get an idealscope image.

Why don't you just get an idealscope image so you can be more confident in the cut.
For a $3800 purchase it is worthwhile to go through this small difficulty.

 

[FND3rd]

I said "likely" not well cut. I haven't seen the stone in person so I can't (and didn't) make any definitive statement on its performance. Unfortunately, the pictures you posted don't give good indications as to how the stone performs light and brilliance wise. And as far as I know, the HCA is a "weeding out tool" and not a definitive indicator of performance.

I think this is a bit unfair. The HCA for the stone is excellent, so i think it is plausible the stone is well cut. The angles could be off, and the symmetry/polish grade could be lower. But I think with the EGL the more off part is going to be cut and color. But again, I think all of us would say you need an idealscope image to get a better idea of how well cut it is.

Step 1) Rule HCA, throw out stones over 2.
Step 2) Get an idealscope image.

Why don't you just get an idealscope image so you can be more confident in the cut.
For a $3800 purchase it is worthwhile to go through this small difficulty.

Thanks and agreed re: idealscope image. I requested that the seller provide one. I have the diamond on hold, but have not yet made the purchase, and will not do so until I am comfortable that this stone is fairly priced.

 

[onedrop]

Would they be okay with a diamond that shows a lot of yellow tint, and a visible inclusion, and may likely not have the light return and brilliance of a well cut stone?

I am curious, what makes you think that this stone is not well cut? The HCA and AGA scales do not raise any red flags. Was there something else I overlooked that would indicate this stone is not an ideal cut?

I said "likely" not well cut. I haven't seen the stone in person so I can't (and didn't) make any definitive statement on its performance. Unfortunately, the pictures you posted don't give good indications as to how the stone performs light and brilliance wise. And as far as I know, the HCA is a "weeding out tool" and not a definitive indicator of performance.

I said HCA "does not raise red flags", which implies I was viewing it as a "weeding out tool" and not as a "definitive indicator of performance".

"[L]ikely" means you think there is a greater chance it is not well cut than it is well cut. So, again, what makes you think it is "likely" not well cut, aside from a bias against EGL certs?

Forget about the money aspect for a minute: Is the person you are giving this ring to going to be happy with the final result? Would they be okay with a diamond that shows a lot of yellow tint, and a visible inclusion, and may likely not have the light return and brilliance of a well cut stone?

Are you kidding? My girlfriend loves me to death and does not have a shallow or materialistic bone in her beautiful body. The color of a stone is not going to change that one bit. I hope that all of you and your significant others feel the same way about each other.

I think you took my comment way out of context. I don't think I said anywhere that your GF doesn't love you or will judge you based upon the stone you choose to give her. My only point was, that if it were me, looking at a stone with visible flaws would bother me. If it doesn't bother your GF then great!

ETA: Your points as well as what 06PVC said about the HCA score for this stone are well taken. The HCA score on the stone looks good. Maybe you are getting a good deal, maybe you aren't. I just re-iterate what I said in my post on the first page. Denverappraiser has made many good points as to why this particular stone was graded by EGL and has been priced as it has. Something just doesn't add up for me. But hey...maybe you'll get the deal of the century!

 

[06pvc]

Good. The idealscope will help tell you if the stone is well cut. I am looking forward to seeing the image.

But without knowing the clarity and color you will NEVER be comfortable that this stone is fairly priced, because that will always remain an unknown. So you either have to take it to an appraiser or another stone.

Here is an alternative that is bigger (HCA 2.2):
http://www.solomonbrothers.com/DiamondDetail.aspx?sku=59644893&affiliate=9318613A-AD0C-4530-A456-0409DFEFB8DE%20&utm_source=PriceScope

 

[06pvc]

But hey...maybe you'll get the deal of the century!

I think it is possible this could be a well cut stone that just has really really low clarity and color that probably erode it from being a good deal to somewhere between fair and bad deal. An appraiser could give you the answer instead of our speculation. I wouldn't touch the stone let alone spend the money on the appraiser, but if you are considering purchasing it, appraiser is a must.

As an example suppose it is a Q stone.

Here is a decent O-P
http://www.solomonbrothers.com/DiamondDetail.aspx?sku=57344Y48&affiliate=9318613A-AD0C-4530-A456-0409DFEFB8DE%20&utm_source=PriceScope

Another Decent O-P
http://www.abazias.com/database/NewDiamondInfo.asp?stock=105368725&flag=ps

A Decent T
http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=14626547&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=&_ln=ps

A Decent N
http://www.uniondiamond.com/AE0268012&ptc=PS

So basically you can still get well cut large stone with your budget, you just need a low color. Which is what you may or may not be doing now. If I where you I'd contact Yekutiel at IDJewlery and basically say your looking for the biggest, well cut, eye clean stone with little regard for color.

 

[kenny]

This is of course sarcasm, but frankly, it's all that's left we can offer you at this point since you refuse to pull your head out of the sand after receiving superb advice from experts.

Your sarcasm adds nothing to the conversation. I have not been asking for advice as much as analysis. I understand there is a strong prejudice against EGL certificates on this board, and that is fine. Unfortunately, some of the posters here, apparently including yourself, are unable to move past that bias to offer any sort of helpful analysis of the stone itself.

"Helpful analysis" can be obtained from GIA or AGS, labs that issue grades you can believe.

Prejudice? Bias?

Sure, I'm biased about being lied to and ripped off by overpaying for dishonest grades.
I'm also biased against being hit by a car or stepping in dog poo.
Bias is often wisdom.

Prejudice is PREjudging.
I am POSTjudging EGL.
My judging of EGL is the result of reading zillions of examples of customers being disappointed by the big fat lies that EGL calls grading reports.
They thought they were giving their gal an F VS1 diamond, but later found out it was many grades lower.

But hey, knock yourself out.

 

[smoothmoose]

I think at this point the data needs to be examined. It is good you have photos of the diamond. Though photos are not 100% and can be photoshoped, it provide a decent range of reference.

The color of the diamond is definitely not an I or J. You can reference the color guide here:
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-colors

Some of the folks here thinks it looks like a M or N, which is probably reasonable guess.

The clarity is definitely not VS2 (I bought a VS2 and it eye-clean even as close as I can put the diamond up to my eye).

The clarity guide is here:
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-clarity

Again the inclusion you noted is quite noticeable even in the zoomed out photo and will probably fall into the SI2, I1 range...maybe worse.

So basically you need to set a reference point of:
M/N for color
SI2/I1 for clarity

Is this accurate? NO. Is it better than getting it appraised? NO. But you can save the appraisal fees and restart with a more realistic search.

I believe other members have already made recommendations in this color/clarity range for GIA certs and they fall into your price range.

I feel your frustration as you are looking for the best deal/bang for your buck. You've asked for a second opinion and you got closer to 20 of them. They are all telling you the same thing...look at other options.

 

[John P]

[Please do not just continue to repeat that EGL certificates are inferior, but rather identify something wrong with this diamond that would make it worth less than $3750 if it was attached to a GIA/AGS certificate.

The basic numbers are solid: 57T 40.7PA 34.9CA. I'd estimate 80% lower halves based on the FT image. If the cutting is consistent the performance could be quite good.

That grading report uses "stock" images for H&A. I found a larger report image online and zoomed into the FireTrace images. As DancingFire pointed out, those FT photos, which are actual, don't support top cut-precision or "H&A" - if that matters to you.

I browsed for other diamonds from 1.20-1.29 cts with solid cut indicators (potential GIA EX/AGS Ideal) in the comparable price range. I found only your EGL-IL 1.24 I VS2, a GIA 1.24 M SI1 and an EGL-IL 1.28 E SI3. That's a crazy-wide alphanumeric spread. For what it's worth, based on listed trade value, I think your seller is extending a fair price.

The feathers should be examined/considered. Don't expect the color to be anywhere near I if held to strict standards (it doesn't sound like you do). The cut quality looks pretty promising. As long as you understand what you're buying and the seller is being transparent and providing good service you are ultimately getting a diamond. Not a lab report.

That said, if you were my buddy or a family member purchasing this I'd examine it, just so we'd know the bottom line. And if it was the only 1.24 of respectable cut-quality in that price range ~ and you had your heart set on 1.24cts come heck or high water ~ I could get behind the sacrifice in color/clarity - or strictness thereof in this case - to get improved cut if that's the case.

...But being the nerd I am, I might also spirit it away and send it off for "legitimate" paper one day!

 

[FND3rd]

Thank you for the response John. Do you have a link to the GIA 1.24 M SI1? For what it's worth, the seller shot a few more photos and sent a dark/blurry idealscope image. Happy to hear anyone's thoughts.

 

[06pvc]

Thank you for the response John. Do you have a link to the GIA 1.24 M SI1? For what it's worth, the seller shot a few more photos and sent a dark/blurry idealscope image.

I am not really sure what those images but it is not an Idealscope. It looks more like more like a hearts and arrow viewer with a blue tint instead of a red and white one. So that gives us no info on the light performance. Did he tell you that was an idealscope?
Also those all those spots on the photos are those clarity issues?

The experts may be able to give some insight on light performance based on the photos taken in the sun.

 

[smoothmoose]

It appears you have a hard requirement to get a diamond of a certain size and a limited budget. Maybe instead of buying new, you should consider buying preowned? Below is recent thread from someone who got a fantastic ER AND wedding band for at significant discount from new that ended up close to the same budget ($5000??) you are looking at. His diamond was smaller, but it was a true E color and VS1. I believe If you give yourself time and put in the effort you maybe able to find something of much higher quality that is you budget range. Are you on a tight schedule to propose, or do you have time to do research and leg work on the preowned market?

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-secondary-market-experience.174708/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-secondary-market-experience.174708/[/URL]

 

[maiell1]

if that is the best the seller could do then I would skip it straight away, who knows if they would honor the return policy. surely a good seller good provide nice and proper idelscope images not those useless photos.

 

[John P]

Thank you for the response John. Do you have a link to the GIA 1.24 M SI1? For what it's worth, the seller shot a few more photos and sent a dark/blurry idealscope image. Happy to hear anyone's thoughts.

06 is right. That's a H&A viewer, not an IdealScope.
Share this link with your seller if you like: http://www.ideal-scope.com/

I'm going to say again; based on the numbers and the images you have (H&A/FT) the performance of the diamond will be above average. It's definitely GIA EX and could be an AGS0 candidate. It' would not pass strict "H&A" grading requirements however, if that matters.

The GIA 1.24 M SI1 is a B2B listing, not for retail sale. The one I was speaking about is listed by a seller in China. I see another GIA 1.24 M SI1 located in India, but it's 25% more expensive. If your seller has access to online professional trading networks he/she may be able to provide more information on them.

 

[John P]

if that is the best the seller could do then I would skip it straight away, who knows if they would honor the return policy. surely a good seller good provide nice and proper idelscope images not those useless photos.

Not necessarily. 99 out of 100 jewelers won't have an Ideal-Scope. Nearly as many either haven't heard of one or confuse what it does with a H&A viewer. I made that statistic up, by the way. It might be closer to 999 out of 1000 jewelers.

In fact the regulars on this forum can likely walk into any number of jewelry stores in their cities and create instant confusion among longtime jewelers by talking about Ideal-Scope, HCA and (in many cases) ASET.