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Pros and cons of cupping yellow diamonds?

PrincessCath

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I am getting my Yellow Intense FCD! and trying to find someone to set it in a short time frame, which seems pretty much impossible...

Question about the setting. Some jewelers suggested a YG color enhancement cup.

Obvious pro:

- it enhances the color of the paler yellows. Is this still true with Yellow Intense, or is the benefit of a cup getting marginal with higher color saturations? Would a YG bezel achieve the same result, or better?

Obvious cons:

- it adds a bit to the price, but probably not in any significant way considering the cost of a custom setting.

- it is supposed to be invisible. Problem is, even with my far-from-perfect vision, I can tell at first glance in photos which stones have been cupped, as the edges of the cup clearly peek from under the stone, esp. with plat/WG settings. And here I am talking of rings set by the most reputable designers, not just run-of-the-mill jewelers. True, this is on a magnified pix on my computer screen, but I would be hard pressed to see an I3 inclusion in a stone, so the cup must be pretty glaringly apparent. I have never seen cupped diamonds in person... Are cups really invisible to the naked eye?

- Does the cup affect the diamond's sparkle as it has to impede the flow of light?

Sorry for the long post and many questions. Many thanks in advance for clarifying this!
 
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ddgdl

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I am interested in this question too.

Cath- do you have photos in mind where you could clearly see the cup, and ones where you clearly cannot? I would be interested to see if the presence of the cup is as visually obvious to me as it is to you.
 

PrincessCath

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ddgdl|1331904708|3149950 said:
I am interested in this question too.

Cath- do you have photos in mind where you could clearly see the cup, and ones where you clearly cannot? I would be interested to see if the presence of the cup is as visually obvious to me as it is to you.
Oh sure! I wasn't sure about posting pix as it might be construed as a criticism of highly respected designers here (which I hasten to say it is not, it is just a question on cups in general.) Here's a Victor Canera:
 

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PrincessCath

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Oops, the upload failed for some reason, but here's a link:http://www.victorcanera.com/the-lynn-art-deco-halo.html

And I am going to try and upload a DBL design (which is used in the FCD tutorial precisely to demonstrate cupping.)

Again they are both respected craftsmen, and I assume if the cup "jumps" at me visually, it is the cup's fault. In which case I probably wouldn't be happy with one for my ring.

cup.jpg
 

ddgdl

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Thank you for the photos. I knew what "cupping" was, but I had never had someone point out what it looks like. To be honest, I always thought that it would just be a small piece of yellow gold under the stone, the color of which would get reflected by the facets, rather than something that goes around the entire stone below the girdle.
 

SB621

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Here is mine done by WF with an 18k yellow gold cup. I can't answer the question about intense yellow's as I'm not sure. I"m guess it would but the change would be marginal as it is already a vibrant color. I know with my fly it didn't really bring out the yellow color as much as it provide a nice transition from my FLY to my white gold halo- if that makes sense. My FLY is a light lemonade color that looks much darker in the WF pictures. But set or unset it is pretty much the same color in RL.

Who told you it was supposed to be invisible??? When I was getting quotes from several vendors all of them said it would look like a thin bezel around the diamond- which was exactly what I wanted. Once again I think the cup helps transition the yellow diamond with white gold or plat settings, but that is just the look I personally like. Now in real life and not magified on my screen I can just barely see it, but I really have to look for it. Hope that helps a little.

DoubleFLy3.jpg

DoubleFly4.jpg
 

SB621

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I think this picture shows the cup the best from the side. It is really hard to see it when you look at the ring dead on.

EDIT: meant picture!

DoubleFLY1.jpg
 

PrincessCath

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Sarahbear621|1331906549|3149961 said:
Here is mine done by WF with an 18k yellow gold cup. I can't answer the question about intense yellow's as I'm not sure. I"m guess it would but the change would be marginal as it is already a vibrant color. I know with my fly it didn't really bring out the yellow color as much as it provide a nice transition from my FLY to my white gold halo- if that makes sense. My FLY is a light lemonade color that looks much darker in the WF pictures. But set or unset it is pretty much the same color in RL.

Who told you it was supposed to be invisible??? When I was getting quotes from several vendors all of them said it would look like a thin bezel around the diamond- which was exactly what I wanted. Once again I think the cup helps transition the yellow diamond with white gold or plat settings, but that is just the look I personally like. Now in real life and not magified on my screen I can just barely see it, but I really have to look for it. Hope that helps a little.
Thanks, Sarah, for the pix. Wow, your stone has a wonderful color! I would have put it as a FY or FIY. So your experience was that the cup did nothing at all colorwise? Most interesting... So yes, this helps a lot.

I reread the email from the vendor, and yes, he did say it wouldn't be visible from the top. Another vendor told me the same thing over the phone, so I took this as the official line. ;-)
 

PrincessCath

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And Sarah, your 2nd pic is particularly helpful. It is how Tiffany does it, only they make the sides of the cup come up to form the bezel around the stone. So the only difference between a cup and a good ole bezel would be the width?

:wavey: Anyone from trade?
 

kenny

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Jewelry traps oil and dirt especially when worn on the hand.

Having an open back behind a diamond lets you clean the pavilion.
Having a cup will trap more dirt, make cleaning harder and that gold reflector will not look very gold after gunk build up.

Also a cup only helps when the diamond leaks/windows.
I'd rather shop for a diamond that's well cut so it doesn't need a mirror behind it to reflect the light back that should not have leaked out in the first place.
 

diagem

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PrincessCath|1331907889|3149972 said:
And Sarah, your 2nd pic is particularly helpful. It is how Tiffany does it, only they make the sides of the cup come up to form the bezel around the stone. So the only difference between a cup and a good ole bezel would be the width?

:wavey: Anyone from trade?
I sent David from DBL a note of this thread..., I believe he is in a position to address this issue as the work I have seen him doing with the yellow OMC's I cut is actualy surprisingly splendid. And I don't believe they are are cups.

I hope he will address your enquiries.
 
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SB621

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PrincessCath|1331907349|3149967 said:
Sarahbear621|1331906549|3149961 said:
Here is mine done by WF with an 18k yellow gold cup. I can't answer the question about intense yellow's as I'm not sure. I"m guess it would but the change would be marginal as it is already a vibrant color. I know with my fly it didn't really bring out the yellow color as much as it provide a nice transition from my FLY to my white gold halo- if that makes sense. My FLY is a light lemonade color that looks much darker in the WF pictures. But set or unset it is pretty much the same color in RL.

Who told you it was supposed to be invisible??? When I was getting quotes from several vendors all of them said it would look like a thin bezel around the diamond- which was exactly what I wanted. Once again I think the cup helps transition the yellow diamond with white gold or plat settings, but that is just the look I personally like. Now in real life and not magified on my screen I can just barely see it, but I really have to look for it. Hope that helps a little.
Thanks, Sarah, for the pix. Wow, your stone has a wonderful color! I would have put it as a FY or FIY. So your experience was that the cup did nothing at all colorwise? Most interesting... So yes, this helps a lot.

I reread the email from the vendor, and yes, he did say it wouldn't be visible from the top. Another vendor told me the same thing over the phone, so I took this as the official line. ;-)
The color in the WF photos is not very true to life. If you like at my thread on the second page I have RL photos that show the light lemonade color that I LOVE :love: !!! I'm just not into vibrant or intenst yellow diamonds- just doesnt' do it for me. And yes to me the cup really didn't add to the yellow color at all.

In regards to the width I was underthe impression that the cup comes down below the diamond so the light reflects off the yellow gold where a bezel will not. Im' not sure if this is the correct terminology, I'm sure an expert can comment. But to make it simple yes the cup comes down further and covers the majority of the bottom of the diamond and basket.

Here is my orginal thread:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/dbl-93ct-fly-in-double-halo-by-wf.166561/page-2']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/dbl-93ct-fly-in-double-halo-by-wf.166561/page-2[/URL]
 

PrincessCath

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kenny|1331912625|3150010 said:
Jewelry traps oil and dirt especially when worn on the hand.

Having an open back behind a diamond lets you clean the pavilion.
Having a cup will trap more dirt, make cleaning harder and that gold reflector will not look very gold after gunk build up.

Also a cup only helps when the diamond leaks/windows.
I'd rather shop for a diamond that's well cut so it doesn't need a mirror behind it to reflect the light back that should not have leaked out in the first place.
So, Kenny, I gather you are not a fan of cups. :) Thanks to this thread, I am getting there myself.
Actually the jewelers who proposed a cup didn't mention that it might fix windows (in fact they did so without seeing the stone or even a pic.) They only spoke of color enhancement.
And Sarah says it changed nothing to the color of her diamond. I feel there's some misinformation going on, between the color thingy and the supposed invisibility...
Good thing we have PS!
 

PrincessCath

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Sarah, thanks for the link. Your RL pix are much prettier than the WF shots. To me, there are only 2 ways to tell the color of a FCD: plain white background, or RL, and even then it's difficult enough to capture the true color. I don't like FCD pix against dark backgrounds because one gets no idea of the real color.
As for the color itself, it's all a question of personal taste. I like canary/intense best myself (vivid is too much for me, and lemonade too little.) But then everything is relative bec. there are such a range within each grade.
 

PrincessCath

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DiaGem|1331913103|3150015 said:
PrincessCath|1331907889|3149972 said:
And Sarah, your 2nd pic is particularly helpful. It is how Tiffany does it, only they make the sides of the cup come up to form the bezel around the stone. So the only difference between a cup and a good ole bezel would be the width?

:wavey: Anyone from trade?
I sent David from DBL a note of this thread..., I believe he is in a position to address this issue as the work I have seen him doing with the yellow OMC's I cut is actualy surprisingly splendid. And I don't believe they are are cups.

I hope he will address your enquiries.
Thanks, I'd love to have David's opinion on cupping! A PM function on this forum would be nice...
 

Rockdiamond

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HI Princess- Chalk up my absence to the stress of designing and implementing our brand new website.

This is a more complex subject than it might seem.
There's a lot to designing a cup that won't completely cut off the bottom of the stone, and be artful to look at as well.


Even the color of yellow gold is a complex formula that varies from one bench to another.
Combine this with the complex nature of the stones themselves- and it becomes impossible to make "hard fast rules"

Thanks Yoram :wavey: - the unique nature of the stones you've cut for us provide a great example of how the setting works with the stone.
 

Laila619

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Do you remember the poster Amethyste? She had a yellow pear in a halo and she said her gold cup definitely enhanced the color of the pear. When she switched settings, she said the pear was less yellow when it was out of the cup.
 

kenny

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PrincessCath|1331914410|3150032 said:
So, Kenny, I gather you are not a fan of cups. :) Thanks to this thread, I am getting there myself.
Actually the jewelers who proposed a cup didn't mention that it might fix windows (in fact they did so without seeing the stone or even a pic.) They only spoke of color enhancement.
It is not that I'm not a fan of cups.
I'm not a fan of poorly cut diamonds, white OR FCDs.

Cups are a band aide for an unnecessary injury.

Visualize a perfect flat ordinary mirror that reflects 100% of the light.
Placing gold behind it would not nothing, zip, nada, zilch.
How if that mirror had little areas where the reflective coating was scratched off, sure THOSE areas would be helped by something reflective behind the poorly-performing mirror.

A cup doesn't do much for a well-cut diamond because very little light leaks out the bottom to strike the cup.
Plus, a cup in the way makes it much more likely the pavilion will remain filthy, further which further degrades light performance because light inside the diamond striking a clean pavilion will be reflected a different angle (the desireable angle) compared to with a dirty pavilion.
THe angle depends on the property of diamond material and air material - Jergen's hand lotion changes the angle and was not factored into the diamond cutters' decision on how to position the facet angles.
In fact, even desireable "contrast leakage" that borders the tips of arrows of hearts and arrows diamonds would be watered down if there was a gold reflector behind a yellow diamond.

With diamonds, the better the cut the less leakage/windowing and the less the gold cup would help.
Most of the light that enters the top of the best-cut diamonds would get reflected back out the top, instead of leaking out the bottom (hopefully to be helped by a gold cup).
Granted few FCDs ARE cut with good light performance as a priority.
Diamond sellers hate me for bringing this up because FCDs are not cut for light performance; they are cut to strengthen the color and maximize weight, light performance/windowing/leakage be damned!

With apologies to FCD sellers I encourage FCD shoppers to seek out the FCDs with the best light performance and be very vocal about this to their vendors.
 

Rockdiamond

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Kenny- based on my experience setting many thousands of FCD's your words on cups are totally off base.
We've set many diamonds of many different cuts with and without cups. Saying a well cut diamond won't be affected by a cup is totally incorrect.
Well cut diamonds gather light from 360 degrees.
What you place behind them will have an effect.

You go on and on about how FCD's are not cut "for light performance" which is like complaining your fish does not know how to catch mice.
Get a cat.
The design of a Fancy Colored diamond cut is something artful- or, more accurately, it can be.
It might have leakage- windowing- or any other words we can think up to insult how it looks. It might very well be that NONE of the aspects identified with these words may be detrimental in real life. Ever look at the Hope Diamond?

If all we want is "H&A SuperIdeal" we know what that is, how to test it, etc.
But the same parameters do not hold true for different shapes- much less different colors.
Declaring everything else to be "lesser" completely misses the point.
If you want a mirror on your finger, by all means get one.
Diamonds are not meant to be mirrors.
The way a diamond "performs" is not about how much light comes back to your eye- otherwise we'd use the mirror.

Maybe if your approach was more fair and even handed you would not have this impression that diamond sellers hate you Kenny.
 

kenny

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Rockdiamond you sell colored diamonds.

I don't.

Readers, keep this in mind as you read our posts.
 

Rockdiamond

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That's right Kenny.
I've been buying and selling colored diamonds since the early '90's. I've purchased many many many millions of dollars worth of diamonds.
I've supervised the setting of literally thousands of them.

I've also been posting on the internet assisting consumers since about 2002.
I've never hidden my experience or professional credentials.
A lot of people reading might enjoy the benefits of reading a consumer's idea, as well as a trades-person, which was requested in this very thread.

Personally, I think it would be a lot nicer without needlessly judgmental and hostile posts- as both viewpoints have merit and value.
 

kenny

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Readers, I usually do not know what RD writes; I can only see that he has posted.
I keep him on IGNORE since I often get banned for months for responding appropriately to what he posts.

But you are smart and can make up your own minds.

I make no money from what I post.
 

PrincessCath

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My diamond was set long before RockDiamond responded. Since I found that Kenny's argument (that a cup was likely to trap dirt) convincing, and based on the actual cups I had seen at Tiffany's, I decided to go without.

Would my diamond have looked a more vivid yellow with a cup, as Sarah points out? Quite possibly, but I wasn't going for a very bright yellow anyway, and I am very happy with the way the ring turned out, color and setting.
 

Rockdiamond

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HI PrincessCath,
I've seen the photos and your ring looks amazing!
In many cases I don't use any cup- as long as the ring looks great, that's the goal.
Congrats on yours.
 

PrincessCath

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Thanks, Rock! :wavey: It was your floral design that put me on the right track. Then I found that pic of a vintage ring, and I had the jeweler in LA copy that, which he did very well, down to each exact prong.
 

Rockdiamond

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You're welcome PC!
Cup or no, I'd still recommend a home steam cleaner to help keep your ring shiny and sparkly.
We got the new version of the Jewel Jet and it works pretty darn well to steam a ring or two.
After that you need to wait for it to cool, then refill and wait for it to heat up.
The pro versions are stronger, and are plumbed onto the water pipes so we can steam for hours on end....
With the home version you'll need to schedule your steaming :tongue:

With no cup, or an open cup, a good Jewel Jet steam cleaning gets the job done- even if the stone is pretty gunky.
If it's a sealed cup, it can be a real problem to get that stone really clean.
With a cup that has a little hole, a pro can get it clean- but the Jewel Jet wont really get the job done if the stone is grimy.
 

ariel144

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kenny|1334867030|3175398 said:
PrincessCath|1331914410|3150032 said:
So, Kenny, I gather you are not a fan of cups. :) Thanks to this thread, I am getting there myself.
Actually the jewelers who proposed a cup didn't mention that it might fix windows (in fact they did so without seeing the stone or even a pic.) They only spoke of color enhancement.
It is not that I'm not a fan of cups.
I'm not a fan of poorly cut diamonds, white OR FCDs.

Cups are a band aide for an unnecessary injury.

Visualize a perfect flat ordinary mirror that reflects 100% of the light.
Placing gold behind it would not nothing, zip, nada, zilch.
How if that mirror had little areas where the reflective coating was scratched off, sure THOSE areas would be helped by something reflective behind the poorly-performing mirror.

A cup doesn't do much for a well-cut diamond because very little light leaks out the bottom to strike the cup.
Plus, a cup in the way makes it much more likely the pavilion will remain filthy, further which further degrades light performance because light inside the diamond striking a clean pavilion will be reflected a different angle (the desireable angle) compared to with a dirty pavilion.
THe angle depends on the property of diamond material and air material - Jergen's hand lotion changes the angle and was not factored into the diamond cutters' decision on how to position the facet angles.
In fact, even desireable "contrast leakage" that borders the tips of arrows of hearts and arrows diamonds would be watered down if there was a gold reflector behind a yellow diamond.

With diamonds, the better the cut the less leakage/windowing and the less the gold cup would help.
Most of the light that enters the top of the best-cut diamonds would get reflected back out the top, instead of leaking out the bottom (hopefully to be helped by a gold cup).
Granted few FCDs ARE cut with good light performance as a priority.
Diamond sellers hate me for bringing this up because FCDs are not cut for light performance; they are cut to strengthen the color and maximize weight, light performance/windowing/leakage be damned!

With apologies to FCD sellers I encourage FCD shoppers to seek out the FCDs with the best light performance and be very vocal about this to their vendors.
Kenny,

Everyone has different tastes. The question is do you want a very yellow diamond that looks like crushed ice with all that leakage and when people see it they say "What a beautiful yellow stone... Is that a diamond or a sapphire? " But it is still a beautiful stone to many people. Sapphires just can't return light like well performing diamonds do.

Or do you want a yellow diamond with tons of performance and when people see it they say:

"Wow, what a beautiful diamond...and wow, it's yellow!" A yellow diamond that is flashing white and pastel light all over place is what i prefer, but obviously many others do not, or they have never seen one so they don't know any better.

But only the savvy buyer will come in here to PS to LEARN...really learn diamonds before they buy.

If you watch the GOG videos I posted on another thread, you will see Jon has a crushed ice Fancy Yellow radiant diamond and makes the correct statement: "all that leakage produces a more intense color....we can get cushions cut that way as well" Some people like that and it SEEMS like the majority of the FY diamonds out there are cut that way, which I agree is a shame. If that is all the customer sees then they don't know what they don't know and they have a pretty yellow stone. Some do actually prefer that look and seek it out, so to each his own.

there is another GOG video where Jon talks about the fact that the calipers they were holding the diamonds with had turned dark on the ends and it was reflecting into the color of the diamonds they were showing clients, so i do believe even well cut diamonds can pick up color through the girdles. Funny they were using them for years like that before they realized it was making the diamonds look darker.

GOG is the only site that I have found that actually is not afraid to "prove" the performance of their diamonds in more ways than just an ASET image and few pictures or a short one stone video. It is very difficult to purchase diamonds online, but the retailers don't make your choice any easier either...they all seem afraid of "proving" the light return of their stones. "oh, when you see it you will know." Right, how many people have seen a really awesome high performing diamond in their life? They are what maybe 1% of all diamonds on the market?

But I would have to listen to David at DBL because of his long time experience in setting colored diamonds. I saw an OMB O/P with a yellow diamond set in the donut and it definitely gave the diamond a yellow hue through the culet in some of her photos. Through the "window" that was leaking light but now picked up yellow color of the diamond. And I would tend to believe if you bezeled the yellow diamond in yellow gold the diamond would pick up the yellow through the girdle as well. Even great performing stones have leakage in certain areas that would draw in color from the setting but each diamond is different and only a skilled craftsman would know how to set the diamond to produce even more color.

But what do I know...I'm only a self educated novice at diamonds and certainly with FD.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/its-here-its-here-my-2-30-ct-omb-antique-cushion-upgrade.158760/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/its-here-its-here-my-2-30-ct-omb-antique-cushion-upgrade.158760/[/URL]

Here are some diamonds with performance and color, and one cut for color let everyone choose what is attractive to them.

FANCY LIGHT YELLOW August Vintage cushion video buttery bling! Enjoy the videos.
http://vimeo.com/6599079

wx AVC (very light yellow – not fancy)

http://vimeo.com/19766353

fancy yellow radiant compared to antique cut round O/P
http://vimeo.com/18131678

Anyway this is a very interesting topic and I would cut out the bashing dialogue. Uncalled for here. People are simply attempting to learn and if you are right then no need to insult others you do not agree with. I would agree, that the better performing stones probably will not benefit as much from the setting as those that leak more light but it will still enhance their color some. But that is my conclusion based on what I draw from those with experience in setting colored stones....some which are good performers some not as good. They don't throw away bad diamonds...someone eventually buys them (I guess, LOL)
 

PrincessCath

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Thanks for the tip on Jewel Jet, David! The (open) cups I have seen at Tiff's seem perfect to trap dirt, and pretty much impossible to hand clean.

Anyway, cup or no cup, I need to get more conscientious about cleaning my bling. ;-)
 

SomethingNew

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I was doing a search on ideas related to color enhance cup for colored diamond, and this came up. I am in the market for a yellow diamond, and debating if I should get a fancy yellow or a smaller fancy intense yellow (assuming the same cost). Of course, I like the idea of an larger stone, thinking a fancy yellow (or even light yellow) will look plenty with the enhancement cup. But I am concern about dirt get inside of the cap and cleaning would be impossible.

Any one can share their experience with color enhancement cup? Does dirt get trap inside? since the cup blocks light from the bottom, does it make the diamond look dull? Would you get the same thing again?

Million thanks!
 
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AV_

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I recall one or two rings with wider bridges between prongs rather than anything. Then, yellow diamonds are not always set in yellow gold!

This would be interesting to try options on the stone, to see how it picks color - it is too hard to guess.
 
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