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Prices and Availability

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by pricescope, Jan 1, 2000.

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  1. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Jan 1, 2000
    I recieved this interesting questions by email:--- quote --------I'm considering using one of several services which for a few provide monthly or weekly access to diamond prices. Since then I've seen your site and accessed your average and lowest prices via cut (1A, for example). Is there any marked difference between "their" information, say from Rapaport or other source, and your prices based on carat/cut? My interest is, if they are approximately in the same range, give or take, say a few hundred dollars, then paying for "their" services would not be worth it.

    I'm considering a 1.25-1.35 round, ideal cut F or G and VS1, with excellent polish. Does GIA rate the polish of the stone? Via brokering a diamond, I would think that a retailer or wholesaler, if given a purchaser's needs, does not have a like diamond in inventory, that they could broker it within a few weeks. I'm located in the San Francisco Bay Area where there are many, good, reputable dealers and wholesalers.

    Many thanks and great site!
    -----leonid
     
    


    


  2. generalist
    Rough_Rock

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    by generalist » Jan 1, 2000
    If the targetted "numbers" provided in pricescope are in the ballpark in which ways would the differ, from say the Rap in terms of numbers to "begin" negotiation for price?Many thanks.
     
  3. Diamond Lover
    Rough_Rock

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    by Diamond Lover » Aug 11, 2000
    Hi everyoneI think some branded H&A would be fairly easy to buy over the internet unseen if they are consistent in their cut quality..I can think of one or two that I rest easy with.However, I don't think I would ever buy a diamond in a "shopping cart" type environment...would want to talk to the dealer on the phone at least just to clarify some things and to make the purchase a "little" more personal. [​IMG]Diamond Lover
     
  4. generalist
    Rough_Rock

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    by generalist » Aug 11, 2000
    Folks,With all due respect I agree with striking a balance (all others held equal) price, quality and service. Frankly the reason the internet is grand for shopping is individuals can shop for price (if they choose) and make an educated decision regarding the other factors which may go into their decision to buy or not, from any specific merchant. Let's face it some vendor make money on turnover, and volume not just price. I'll always shop for the best deal but I always spend my money looking for quality. It's not the difference in the quality but the quality of the difference, that counts.
     
    


    


  5. Jan
    Rough_Rock

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    by Jan » Aug 11, 2000
    Sorry, I'm invisible.
    Jan [​IMG]------------------
     
  6. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Aug 11, 2000
    I think this question is right into bull's eye!It is remarkable that in the Internet era still there are people who charge for access to Rapaport Report and fooling consumers by comparing their prices with the Rap! Here is what I’ve learned while developing this site. Hope that real experts will correct me if I'm wrong or missed somethingRapaport Report data are
    1. For indication only.
    2. For well cut stones (who knows exactly what is the well cut stones?)
    3. For GIA graded stones.

    GIA does not grade the cut and does not provide vital information to evaluate it (crown and pavilion angles) There are no guidelines how to deduct the price for the specific stone and compare its price with Rapaport Report. As a sequence there are many possibilities to manipulate with the Rap data in order to convince the consumers and make the sale (see for example RapTrap at www.niceice.com).Depending on the particular size, color and clarity demand can exceed supply and vice versa. So the real market price can deviate significantly. So I believe that comparison of the prices on the similar stone from the different sources is much more reliable (just make sure to compare apple to apple)I should run away and continue later unless someone else will :)leonid Buying diamonds over the net can save you a lot of money including the taxes if the diamond shipped from another state. The questions are how safely is it and will you get exactly what you are paying for.
     
  7. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Aug 11, 2000
    Buying diamonds over the net can save you a lot of money including the taxes if the diamond shipped from another state. The questions are how safely is it and will you get exactly what you are paying for.The answers are yes and yes. There are known, intelligent and trustworthy dealers and jewelers (e.g. Joe Bacon, SteveL, Martin Sheffield, and others) that offer diamond brokerage and setting over the net. On the other hand 7-15 days money back guarantee allows you to have a second expert’s opinion. For example Rockdoc (www.diamondclearinghouse.com) offers can analyze the diamond BEFORE you pay for it to the dealer.However there is another sort of pleasure to buy from brand name stores like Tiffany where you can enjoy the great service and glamour in exchange for quality and education.There is another category of diamonds: brand names cuts like A Cut Above, EightStar, etc. Sometimes they cost more but you are guarantied with the perfection of the craftsmanship.At any rate the one is true: as more time one can invest in diamond education as better diamond (s)he will get for the less money. Some of the good sites to start with are www.goodoldgold.com, www.niceice.com, www.usagiacerteddiamonds.com, www.witeflash.com and others.OK will try to put my thoughts together and yield something about internet prices and my price stats until somebody else did Jleonid
     
  8. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Aug 11, 2000
    Now about the prices in the price stats.Thanks to technology diamond dealers now have a chance to list stones which they do not own but available on the trading networks. They simply add a fee/markup to their services, which might be from 8% to 20%. I.e. these charts should reflect the diamond market more or less accurately. However the problem with the cut determination is still exists. And although I provide a cut selection it should be used with caution because all required cut-grading information is often unavailable for the PriceScope crawler. Thus this data are for indication only. One should check manually the cut proportions for the stone of interest. It is known that having only Depth and Table values are not enough to say whether the cut is ideal or poor. I am looking to improve the system but this will require cooperation with vendors who should provide more thorough cut information - AGS or Sarin reports in digital format.And yet buying only based on the report might be risky especially for the fancy shapes so live examination is recommended.GIA does grade the polish along with symmetry.I guess that even few weeks are too much to get the diamond. If it is in stock you can get it in a couple of days. Could you find close stone using PriceScope?Hope it helps. Let’s see what experts are going to add.leonid
     
  9. Brad
    Rough_Rock

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    by Brad » Aug 11, 2000
    Hi Leonoid Would I have to buy an ad to get a plug? :) or should I consider others my catergory. Just kidding:)
    Brad :)
     
  10. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Aug 11, 2000
    Generalist, welcome! Glad you’ve checked in.Difference between Rap numbers and PriceScope' stats is that PriceScope also gives you a link where you can get the stone which has the lowest price in its 4c-range.So you can ask your dealer to match the price since you know where you can get the same stone cheaper.I would say even more. Despite that the internet diamond prices are already very, low comparing with the brick and mortar guys, there is still room to negotiate the price and save 1-3%. I know that some dealers list their 'virtual' inventory with 9% markup but ready to sell at 4% just to keep the sell.However I might be paying too much attention to the price only. There are some other factors like confidence, additional services, and intelligence of the dealer, his ability to be patient and informative... It is difficult to include all these factors into the chart.I’ve witnessed the situation when the dealer was very nice to client at the beginning but became very mad and mean as only customer started to ask too many questions.Does it make sense? leonid
     
    


    


  11. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Aug 11, 2000
    Hi Brad, ask Martin is he willing to give up his banners on PriceScope :) ?
     
  12. StevL
    Brilliant_Rock
    Trade

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    by StevL » Aug 11, 2000
    In all do respect. There are still paople that like to have a person in front of them. Have all the explaining done face to face, not have to put any money up to see a large selection, can toy with different mountings and size diamonds. They can have it set while they wait, and a front door to complain to should they ever have a problem. They will also receieve free sizings, and repair work for many years to come, and they may see many diamonds (and not put up a dime), branded diamonds (eightstar for one) that can't be easily purchased or compared over the net.One of our trade publications just said only 2% of jewlery sales are made over the net.Don't under estimate your local independent jewelers. It's not *always* price, as has been proven on other forums.The net is just another place to shop, and offers very little service (while you wait). If it is soley a price issue, then compare to the net prices.
     
  13. StevL
    Brilliant_Rock
    Trade

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    by StevL » Aug 11, 2000
    Also, how many times do consumers look at a stone in a data base, to only find out they may not even be able to see it. It's out being worked with, or was sold.I recently had a customer in my store that was very hot to say the least. He had ordered seven different diamonds that couldn't be delivered....... they were out.So all the data bases are also not kept up to date, just look at polygon for those in the trade. Many are often out or sold.The net can be a difficult place to shop. I have sold diamonds over the net, and will continue to do so, but the walk in customer will always be my main stay.I also enjoy meeting and taking a personel interest in each customer and their needs.
     
  14. RockDoc
    Ideal_Rock

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    by RockDoc » Aug 11, 2000
    Hi all....Price should be the LEAST concern, when starting to shop for a diamond.Finding the quality and learning about the stones are far more important.Whether a consumer decides to buy via the net, is a personal decision. Many have successfully made purchases on the net and are quite happy.Others have not. The important lesson here is to BUY the DIAMOND and not buy a price.Price comparison are IMPORTANT once you know enough that you are comparing equal diamonds, which is difficult because each one is different.Even if you looked at two VS-1 G color diamonds of the same cut and weight, ONE would be better than the other.Making that determination takes an expert generally speaking. One stone might be a higher G than the other. One stone might have more "desireable" inclusions than the otherOne may "face up" better than the other.One may be cut to closer tolerances than the other.One may have a better internal structure than the other.Yet, on a lab report, each could appear "identical" to each other.rockdoc
     
  15. StevL
    Brilliant_Rock
    Trade

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    by StevL » Aug 11, 2000
    Rock,
    I like the diamond you showed me that the GIA report made me believe this was a very well cut diamond (maybe ideal). And it ended up a AGS10......wow.
     
    


    


  16. pricescope
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pricescope » Aug 11, 2000
    Thanks God, guys you are here! I guess you both right, personal touch, confidence, education cannot be measured and tabulated.Hope buyers will be able to find great service providers here.Lets Make Diamonds Better (I've alredy applyed for this TM :))
    leonid
     
  17. generalist
    Rough_Rock

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    by generalist » Aug 11, 2000
    Thanks guys (assumption here) for all the good advice. Each person has their prefs for in store or net based sales and purchasing and what may work for you and I may not work for the next...Thanks again.Generalist
     
  18. lawmax
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by lawmax » Aug 11, 2000
    While it is in some ways ideal to buy in person, it can be difficult to find an extremely well cut diamond in some areas. I believe I would have to travel at least 2 hours to see a "superideal" cut diamond. There are people in the US who would have a lot further to go and some countries where there is nothing available. In this way, the internet is invaluable and so is pricescope. :)lawmax
     
  19. Garry H (Cut Nut)
    Super_Ideal_Rock
    Trade

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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » Aug 11, 2000
    This is my 3rd try
    nice discussion
    nice tone
    but again cut is the big??????
    soon there will be an answer to the riddle
    the answer as we know explains why RockDoc's AGS 10 looks good.
    garry h
     
  20. Brad
    Rough_Rock

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    by Brad » Aug 11, 2000
    Hi Leonid I was just kidding with you. I`m doing fine without the ads.Brad :)
     
  21. zara
    Rough_Rock

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    by zara » Sep 11, 2000
    So is the consensus that a PriceScope search for a particular size/color/clarity/cut is the best way to get a sense of the price floor for a particular diamond?I HAVE noticed that a very specific PriceScope query - giving less than 1% range for cut variations (not that the cut % options available are the most relevant ones, right?) gives a pretty uniform group of prices. Which is encouraging. But still hard for a novice like me to tell if they're ALL inflated, or all fair.
     
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