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Price of 1.52 H VS1 Radiant Cut?
- Thread starter AGBF
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phoenixgirl
Ideal_Rock
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith
His most famous work is The Wealth of Nations and his most well known theory the idea that the "invisible hand" of the market regulates prices in a capitalist economy . . . in other words, there is no such thing as something being mispriced in capitalism if we have a free market and a demand for the object in question at the price for which it is selling.
Sorry if you knew that already, but your question made it sound like you didn''t.
diamondsbylauren
Brilliant_Rock
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Hi Phoenixgirl,
boy my feet are sure hot from being held to the fire today.....
No, I honestly was not aware of who Adam Smith was.
The "invisible hand" is clearly at play here. If vendors in a rising market have inventory which they own at old prices, they can either sell based on the price they bought it for, or the price they will need to pay to replace it.
Most of the cutters and important players in the business that I know adjust the price to current market price.
The price of rough diamonds has been rising, and supply has been short- one area in particular is larger high color diamonds. Another reason sellers are holding out for better prices
New York City is clearly not the only place to buy and sell diamonds. That''s where I''m basing my staments from.
boy my feet are sure hot from being held to the fire today.....
No, I honestly was not aware of who Adam Smith was.
The "invisible hand" is clearly at play here. If vendors in a rising market have inventory which they own at old prices, they can either sell based on the price they bought it for, or the price they will need to pay to replace it.
Most of the cutters and important players in the business that I know adjust the price to current market price.
The price of rough diamonds has been rising, and supply has been short- one area in particular is larger high color diamonds. Another reason sellers are holding out for better prices
New York City is clearly not the only place to buy and sell diamonds. That''s where I''m basing my staments from.
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- Apr 30, 2005
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- 34,633
I think another thing is at work.
A couple of years ago I bought a new $60,000 piano for 41% off list.
How?
Knowledge.
I found out that someone else did, so I went to that dealer.
During negotiations with my checkbook out on the table I mentioned I knew Joe got 41% off and that is the only way I will buy it.
The seller knew I had him.
It worked.
Piano dealers used to be the only source for information customers had.
Piano retailers HATE the Internet.
Knowledge is power.
ANd the Internet is knowledge leveraged exponentially.
If sellers can establish in the public''s mind that prices below X are not possible, guess what? Lower prices will not be possible.
It is understandable they are fighting here to keep prices up.
They also never mention that negotiation is possible.
To this day there are piano dealers (and apparently diamond dealers) who go into a tizzy when someone posts they got a certain product for a certain great price.
One of the things I love about PS and its vendors are the diamond listings is the pricing transparency, and the freedom of speech.
A couple of years ago I bought a new $60,000 piano for 41% off list.
How?
Knowledge.
I found out that someone else did, so I went to that dealer.
During negotiations with my checkbook out on the table I mentioned I knew Joe got 41% off and that is the only way I will buy it.
The seller knew I had him.
It worked.
Piano dealers used to be the only source for information customers had.
Piano retailers HATE the Internet.
Knowledge is power.
ANd the Internet is knowledge leveraged exponentially.
If sellers can establish in the public''s mind that prices below X are not possible, guess what? Lower prices will not be possible.
It is understandable they are fighting here to keep prices up.
They also never mention that negotiation is possible.
To this day there are piano dealers (and apparently diamond dealers) who go into a tizzy when someone posts they got a certain product for a certain great price.
One of the things I love about PS and its vendors are the diamond listings is the pricing transparency, and the freedom of speech.
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- Aug 15, 2000
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- 19,129
diamondsbylauren
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2003
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HI Kenny,
This is a great example- but let me ask you a few questions:
What was the "normal" price? If joe Schmo walks in off the street does he pay full price? 41% more than you paid? Can sellers of pianos make such margins?
If so, then the profit margin for this type of piano does not compare with the type of margins sellers of loose diamonds can charge today- specially because of that new fangled internet thingy.
Secondly- was this a piano currently in production? Buying a 2006 Steinway is quite a bit different than buying, say a 1920 Steinway- much less a Five carat diamond.
Items which can simply be re-ordered by a seller are different from items like diamonds, which are can''t be ordered to an exact degree.
If you wanted 6 nine foot Grand Pianos, you could probably get a discount from Steinway.
If you had to buy 6 well cut carat and a half H/VS1''s, they could be difficult to source.... and even if you could get them all from one seller, it might not cost less per stone for six than it would for one
Sorry about the silly internet joke, but you''d be hard pressed to find a seller who loves the internet more than us.
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- Aug 29, 2003
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- 15,808
Look, I am not a fan of Adam Smith and do not believe in the 'invisible hand'. At some level those hands become pretty darn visible. For once, something invisible is too convenient to hold responsible for confort. Few read Adam Smith these days despite the popularity of the hand. That often used single citation - always reminded me of Mr. Thing from the Addams rather than the work of Adam Smith.
True enough, I know allot less about diamond prices than about Adam Smith, so I can't help more than this with the matter. You would need someone who knows both very well to tackle this properly. Mr. Rappaport could be just the right person - if anything, he surely knows from personal experience how the invisible hand works. Few others have ever seen it.
True enough, I know allot less about diamond prices than about Adam Smith, so I can't help more than this with the matter. You would need someone who knows both very well to tackle this properly. Mr. Rappaport could be just the right person - if anything, he surely knows from personal experience how the invisible hand works. Few others have ever seen it.
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David
It was a new piano - not a Steinway BTW - most of them are not very good pianos.
BTW Steinway has been resting on its name for a few generations.
You can buy a much better piano for a much lower price.
Steinway's marketing machine puts DeBeers to shame.
Steinway has the public completely snowed, even many professional players.
Steinways are mostly purchased as status symbols by rich folks, Steinway knows this.
Sure the two largest models the concert Ds and the Bs can be good but even they don't get the final 80 hours or so of labor from a highly qualified (read expensive) technician to regulate tweak them out and voice them unless the buyer somehow knows to request this.
This is for the New York Steinways; the ones made in Hamburg Germany are a different story.
The Hamburg Steinways (sold to the rest of the world) share showrooms with several superb European pianos, Fazioli, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Grotrian, Bluethner, Bechstein, August Foerester, and now Estonia.
These pianos, and the American Charles Walter and the newest Mason and Hamlins put the New York Steinways to shame.
A good player (who has not been brainwashed, or worse, by Steinway) will know.
But I digress.
You asked, “What was the "normal" price? If joe Schmo walks in off the street does he pay full price? 41% more than you paid? Can sellers of pianos make such margins?”
There's that myth again David. . . . . . . “normal price”.
There IS no normal price.
But wouldn't it be nice if you could convince shoppers there was before they walk into your store?
Every piano is sold for as much as the seller can get from that customer, just like cars, oriental rugs and real estate.
To quote Larry Fine, author of “The Piano Book”, “A customer can pay double what another customer pays for the same piano at the same store on the same day.”
You think the diamond business is tough? Piano sales is a jungle (for the customer.)
So
Sellers like high prices.
Buyers like low prices.
Neither is being a monster, its just business.
Granted the piano and diamond retail world are different.
A can of Dole pineapple is the same as any other.
Diamonds and used pianos aren't, too many important subtleties.
Even new pianos vary, and the dealer's service adds or takes away a lot to the equation.
Regardless of product, diamond or piano or whatever:
My main point is this:
The Internet is a growing source of information for buyers.
A few slick sellers know this and are taking the offensive.
Sellers all over the Internet are overtly (and covertly sock-puppeting as “customers”) trying to convince buyers that higher prices are what they should expect to pay - or that there is such a thing as "normal price".
I see this happening here.
A seller goes into attack mode when a customer posts a good price they got.
Buyers beware.
Watch out for sellers who repeatedly work to keep prices up for the kinds of stones the sell.
It was a new piano - not a Steinway BTW - most of them are not very good pianos.
BTW Steinway has been resting on its name for a few generations.
You can buy a much better piano for a much lower price.
Steinway's marketing machine puts DeBeers to shame.
Steinway has the public completely snowed, even many professional players.
Steinways are mostly purchased as status symbols by rich folks, Steinway knows this.
Sure the two largest models the concert Ds and the Bs can be good but even they don't get the final 80 hours or so of labor from a highly qualified (read expensive) technician to regulate tweak them out and voice them unless the buyer somehow knows to request this.
This is for the New York Steinways; the ones made in Hamburg Germany are a different story.
The Hamburg Steinways (sold to the rest of the world) share showrooms with several superb European pianos, Fazioli, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Grotrian, Bluethner, Bechstein, August Foerester, and now Estonia.
These pianos, and the American Charles Walter and the newest Mason and Hamlins put the New York Steinways to shame.
A good player (who has not been brainwashed, or worse, by Steinway) will know.
But I digress.
You asked, “What was the "normal" price? If joe Schmo walks in off the street does he pay full price? 41% more than you paid? Can sellers of pianos make such margins?”
There's that myth again David. . . . . . . “normal price”.
There IS no normal price.
But wouldn't it be nice if you could convince shoppers there was before they walk into your store?
Every piano is sold for as much as the seller can get from that customer, just like cars, oriental rugs and real estate.
To quote Larry Fine, author of “The Piano Book”, “A customer can pay double what another customer pays for the same piano at the same store on the same day.”
You think the diamond business is tough? Piano sales is a jungle (for the customer.)
So
Sellers like high prices.
Buyers like low prices.
Neither is being a monster, its just business.
Granted the piano and diamond retail world are different.
A can of Dole pineapple is the same as any other.
Diamonds and used pianos aren't, too many important subtleties.
Even new pianos vary, and the dealer's service adds or takes away a lot to the equation.
Regardless of product, diamond or piano or whatever:
My main point is this:
The Internet is a growing source of information for buyers.
A few slick sellers know this and are taking the offensive.
Sellers all over the Internet are overtly (and covertly sock-puppeting as “customers”) trying to convince buyers that higher prices are what they should expect to pay - or that there is such a thing as "normal price".
I see this happening here.
A seller goes into attack mode when a customer posts a good price they got.
Buyers beware.
Watch out for sellers who repeatedly work to keep prices up for the kinds of stones the sell.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 9,159
I love Adam Smith.
Smith was hugely important in the development of economic theory and was a critical player in the creation of what we consider modern economies. He wrote a book called “The Wealth of Nations” that literally changed the world.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Smith was hugely important in the development of economic theory and was a critical player in the creation of what we consider modern economies. He wrote a book called “The Wealth of Nations” that literally changed the world.
Here’s the complete text of it: http://www.adamsmith.org/smith/won-intro.htm
It’s not an easy thing to read and very few people want to take the time wade through it but it is one of the most influential books ever written. If nothing else, notice the publish date (1776). This is not exactly new material and his thinking was a critical part of why the USA was set up differently from every country before it. He was the harbinger of the end of the Mercantile system that defined the lives of the residents of Europe and the various European colonies.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
diamondsbylauren
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2003
- Messages
- 1,128
Hi Everyone!
No, I am not familiar with Adam Smith.....
Kenny- I used the term "normal price"- that''s the asking price- when someone walks in to look at a piano what price do they tell the shopper? Or - if there''s a price tag on the piano.
You paid 40% off list- if I walk in, uninitiated, how much are they going to ask from me.
Surely an established store has prices.
I''d suggesyt that if someone else is actually paying $60G''s and you are buying the same item for 40% less someone is really getting taken for a ride.
On the interent, there are published prices. Or, a seller''s "normal" price. Sure, seller may discount this price.
For example, we ( and many other sellers) offer a small discount ( 2-5%) for paying with wire transfer , as opposed to a credit card.
If we were able to discount our published price by 41% then we''d be priced out of existance- and quickly, the internet levels the playing field- prices are public.
Get all the knowledge you can, there''s simply not that kind of margin in the diamond business.
Kenny, I did not attack anyone- certainly not for getting a good price. We''e still waiting for a consumer who''s actually paid $7000 for this H/VS2 to materialize.
If you have encountered "slick sellers" who are acting as customers, please, let us know who they are.
I don''t see that going on here- and I''d say that you post suggests it is.
Please be very clear if you are accusing anyone of anything.
No, I am not familiar with Adam Smith.....
Kenny- I used the term "normal price"- that''s the asking price- when someone walks in to look at a piano what price do they tell the shopper? Or - if there''s a price tag on the piano.
You paid 40% off list- if I walk in, uninitiated, how much are they going to ask from me.
Surely an established store has prices.
I''d suggesyt that if someone else is actually paying $60G''s and you are buying the same item for 40% less someone is really getting taken for a ride.
On the interent, there are published prices. Or, a seller''s "normal" price. Sure, seller may discount this price.
For example, we ( and many other sellers) offer a small discount ( 2-5%) for paying with wire transfer , as opposed to a credit card.
If we were able to discount our published price by 41% then we''d be priced out of existance- and quickly, the internet levels the playing field- prices are public.
Get all the knowledge you can, there''s simply not that kind of margin in the diamond business.
Kenny, I did not attack anyone- certainly not for getting a good price. We''e still waiting for a consumer who''s actually paid $7000 for this H/VS2 to materialize.
If you have encountered "slick sellers" who are acting as customers, please, let us know who they are.
I don''t see that going on here- and I''d say that you post suggests it is.
Please be very clear if you are accusing anyone of anything.
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