precision vs native cuts

[T L]

Date: 12/20/2009 12:14:29 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
But TL, you always act as if you can not have both good color and a good cut. It's not one or the other. I think many of the top cutters are also offering top color. Certainly if you are talking about sapphires, then they will be recuts, but not in tourmaline, garnet and many others. The value of a gem is all about rarity, and top color is rare, but top color well cut is even more rare. EBay is full of step cut ovals with windows, that brownish pink tourmaline you sent me a year ago was a classic example. Not only was the color bad, but the cut was was pretty bad. Proper cutting could have made the stone at least interesting, and give it some flash. I know you didn't pay much for it, but I bet the same stone with good cutting could have sold for 2 or 3 times as much.

No, really Gene, I sound like that? Not at all. Take Chrono's amazing JW cut spessartite. That stone has it all!! I just won't forsake color just because it's not precision cut.

That stone I sent you looked much much better in the video (you live and you learn). I probably wouldn't have worn it, even if it's precision cut. It was too brown.

I think my recut cuprian is worth a lot more now that I recut it, but I wouldn't recut material like LD's 4 carat cuprian because that color is so precious and rare, that even a recut might affect it's value. Each stone has to be determined on its own merits.

You still remind me of my husband though (I just wish he had your hair

)

 

[mastercutgems]

Well since this is a topic I have had some dealing with I will chime in

Many are right in their opinions; I have seen precision cut native gems and precision cut USA gems. When I did all the competition cutting there were many of us from many different countries; Thailand, Sri Lanka, South Africa, Australia, etc. We all were striving for the same thing; to make the gem mineral look the best it could from our cutting abilities.

I think that many do this for a living and many do this for a hobby, and many do this because they love the gem and want to make it look the best they can. If you love your work you normally will do a better job at it than someone just doing it for the wage...

Sometimes I can make them look better than the "native cutter" and there were sometimes his or her step cut without a window captured the light and seemed to hold it until it glowed; much better than my fancy super nova oval or some other type diagram with complicated facet structure.

Gene is right in many respects as it all starts with good rough; and I spent countless hours driving, countless dollars on phone bills before Internet to South Africa, MaGill South Australia; Tanzania, Kenya, Afghanistan and Pakistan and Russia. Nothing like having your Dad call you at work and giving you Bleep over a 700 dollar phone bill for that month. Plus trying to learn the language; broken but at least understandable... Plus everything was sent escrow as no one knew each other...

So yes it gets very expensive; and for re-cuts sometimes it works and sometimes it does not; but you can not make a silk purse out of a sows ear still holds true; if the color stinks with a poor cut; it usually will stink with a well executed precision cut.

As for traveling; I do not do it anymore; I have small kids and do not want to get some parasite I may not be able to get rid of. I do have excellent contacts in country and pay them well to get me good material and Gene is also right; they know what they have and even though you can get deals after years of dealing with them honestly; you still pay a good price for a good piece of rough.

I do not buy mine run and have not for over 18 years; it is normally good fishbowl material.

As for ebay; well you run the risk; but there are ways around that. I just can not trust their pictures or their testing capabilities. Heck you all know my pictures stink; so it has to look better in person

Gene is also correct it does not take any time at all to get a few hundred K invested in good rough and it is not getting easier to find good rough; it is harder because people are becoming more informed as to what IS good color and what IS more valuable; so more people are gunning for the fine rough and there is only so much to go around.

Sorry about the long windedness; but the precision/native thing is kind of a misnomer; to me it is only good and bad cutting ... I only use "native" when I am saying it was cut in another country; but I guess i need to just say cut in Sri Lanka or Thailand; it may be more politically correct; of course correct me if I am wrong as I have been known to be wrong once in a while

I hope everyone has a Wonderful Holiday Season...

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 12/19/2009 9:29:12 PM
Author: Harriet

Date: 12/19/2009 3:07:24 PM
Author: Edward Bristol
If you are really into colors, like seriously addicted to those rare intense colors found only in the very best gems, and if you know how hard they are to come by, you are happy to see them, no matter what the cut.

Yes, a perfect super cut is a nice thing in itself, but the very best gem material does rarely leave a mining country in the rough. So you either have to recut a ''native'' or go with lower quality.

A good enough cut and a great color is a lot to ask from one gem. There are not many out there.

Ed,
Well said.

Crasru,
In my avatar, there is a ''native cut'' spessartite. I''ll venture to say that there are no problems with its cutting. I also recently bought a demantoid that was re-cut. Its'' pavilion facets are not symmetrical. But, I can live with it because the cutting is good enough. In fact, if you looked at it face-up, you wouldn''t see the two extra pavilion facets. More importantly, a demantoid of that colour and size doesn''t appear very often. With due respect, it might be premature to announce the death of precision cuts.

You spessartite looks wonderful, and the color is incredible, pure mandarin. I shall post mine as soon as I get my earrings done. It is a set, and to me it looks interesting, although I am thinking of replacing the stone in a pendant. Maybe the word "native" is a misnomer. By native I mean a cut made with an idea of preserving as much weight as possible, and hence somewhat flawed. I just feel bad that my best-color stone loses in comparison to others with better cuts. My demantoid is not dark-green but somewhat light-green with yellowish secondary hues but it is round but so sparkly that I have a feeling that it has a life of its own, or something lives and moves inside, and that is what I like in stones. Too bad I do not clean it often because I am afraid of scratching it.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 12/19/2009 2:02:55 PM
Author: Chrono
Crasu,
With recutting, there are many considerations too:
1. Weight loss = smaller stone = worth less
2. Smaller stone = less rare
3. Risk of damage = even smaller stone = even less rare = worth even less
4. Recutting fee
5. Loss of depth of colour due to weight loss
5. Issues like zoning might be more prominent after recut

For a cuprian, each 0.5 ct weight loss is worth a LOT of money.

Thank you so much. As usual, you are to the point and your knowledge is amazing. I do not know enough about tourmalines and have not been looking for one just because I need to educate myself first. I had this feeling I should stay away from these beautiful rubellites most of which later appeared to be irradiated. The projects for this year are: spinels (my first one from Swala is on its way, let''s see what the mailman brings). Also, I''d like to buy a really good sapphire and it is quite a task so I''ll have to go through many. So I really count on your support and the help of other PS-ers.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 12/19/2009 5:25:12 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 12/19/2009 5:21:39 PM
Author: PrecisionGem



Ed, I think this is true if you are talking about sapphire, ruby, and emerald, but not with many of the other types of stones. The big 4 (diamonds, ruby, sapphire, emerald) are what are sold in most jewelry stores. The less seldom seen stones it''s possible to buy top quality rough, if you go to the right places. (eBay is NOT the right place).

I think often good cutting is associated with inferior color, only because so many hobby cutters in the US are also selling stones. But these guys don''t buy good rough, they shop for cheap material. They do a great job of cutting but they are cutting cheap material.

I respectfully disagree about ebay as far as buying rough. Amethystguy and Seriouslygemented have ebay stores where I''ve heard from lapidaries, that they have good rough. Seriouslygemented occassionally has some awesome stuff, you should check them out. Occassionally, he''ll have stuff not listed on his site that you can ask about. Freakingcat has a wide variety too.

It''s not just hobby cutters that sell inferior color stones. It''s difficult for many people not close to the source to get fine rough these days it seems.

ETA: I bought my 14 carat Afghan scope green tourmaline from an ebay seller. I did send to a lapidary for evaluation and he said it would cut at least a 4 carat stone, and it would sell for $300/ct in that color. He never got around to cutting it, but he did think it was a fine facet grade piece. You really cannot taint all of ebay by stating that they are not the right place to buy rough, but if you do some investigation, you might be surprised at a good find.

Thanks for pointing out these sources on the ebay. I''d like to know the names of their stores so that I can check them out from time to time. In view of "addiction to colored stones" and the names of these guys...do you think it is not too late to change my name from "crasru" to "seriouslystoned" (LOL)?

 

[AustenNut]

To make this post relevant I recently bought a "native cut" sapphire that I love, and that the local jewelers who have seen it love it as well.

And crasru, if you want to change your username just contact the PS administrators. Shortly after I joined I realized that I wanted a name that wouldn''t be immediately recognizable by my boyfriend (though he''s probably figured it out as he sees me posting all the time). Anyway, they changed it for me and I''m sure they''ll do the same for you.

 

[Arkteia]

No I just wanted to know how to find stores of amethystguy, seriouslydemented and freakingcat on the ebay. I think I found amethystguy but I don''t know about the other two. I''d like to check them out. I hope it is not a joke, probably not since amethystguy is a real vendor.

 

[T L]

Seriouslygemented

http://shop.ebay.com/seriously-gemented/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

FreakingCat Gems

http://stores.ebay.com/FREAKINGCAT-GEMS?_rdc=1

Freakingcat doesn''t have a lot of rough right now, but they have plenty of variety when it comes to exotic gems. A neat store.

 

[Arkteia]

Thank you so much. Pretty interesting. I shall be checking them from time to time.

 

[haagen_dazs]

Date: 12/19/2009 5:22:43 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
You can always recut a stone, but the color is there forever.

i was told that as you cut a stone (eg diamond) the colour can change.
i would think that is true for coloured gemstones too right?
as you cut the stone, there is a chance you change the colour of the stone..

 

[LD]

Date: 12/26/2009 9:55:42 PM
Author: haagen_dazs

Date: 12/19/2009 5:22:43 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
You can always recut a stone, but the color is there forever.

i was told that as you cut a stone (eg diamond) the colour can change.
i would think that is true for coloured gemstones too right?
as you cut the stone, there is a chance you change the colour of the stone..

The colour may intensify or lessen but the overall colour won''t change per se.

 

[chrono]

Saturation may increase or decrease slightly but you will gain liveliness and brilliance. The hue and tone should remain pretty much the same unless there''s a drastic loss of carat weight.

 

[lelser]

When we built our kitchen, we had the cabinets custom made. The doors arrived, and were blotchy - not OK. Since Tom and I are both amateur woodworkers we saw right through the bull and sent them back for re-work. During the - oh let''s call them "discussions"

- the cabinetmaker commented that he couldn''t be expected to control the wood.

Tom stared him down and said "that''s the difference between a carpenter and a cabinetmaker. I EXPECT you to understand the wood so you can control the results." They took the doors down, resanded and refinished, and it looks fantastic.

I''m a professional gemcutter. It''s my JOB to understand what effect a cut will have on a stone, and to as much as possible control the outcome. That doesn''t mean I can make a weak color gemmy, or an included stone clean but it does mean that I can tell you what''s possible and suggest alternatives. Because I''m a gemcutter without a mortgage I will walk away from jobs if I don''t think the result will be good.

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 12/26/2009 9:55:42 PM
Author: haagen_dazs

i was told that as you cut a stone (eg diamond) the colour can change.

i would think that is true for coloured gemstones too right?

as you cut the stone, there is a chance you change the colour of the stone..

The color can change dramatically if the stone has color zones and you removed the bulk of one of those zones. Sapphires are a good example of this in that they often have zoning and were initially cut so that the best color was in the right location to show up well. I''ve seen sapphires which had distinct yellow pavilions and blue crowns with the stone showing distinctly blue. If the crown were to be re-cut the stone would most likely have turned green. Tourmaline''s are usually dichroic and if you were to re-cut them with the table at a much different angle they could change color as well. Any changes to a stone during a re-cut can be pretty well foreseen though, just ask whoever you''re having do the work.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 12/26/2009 9:55:42 PM
Author: haagen_dazs

Date: 12/19/2009 5:22:43 PM

Author: tourmaline_lover

You can always recut a stone, but the color is there forever.

i was told that as you cut a stone (eg diamond) the colour can change.

i would think that is true for coloured gemstones too right?

as you cut the stone, there is a chance you change the colour of the stone..

Assuming you are cutting from rough, and not a recut, yes the color can change a lot, depending on the type of stone. For a garnet, no, but tourmaline, tanzanite, sapphire, zircon and others it''s very important how you orientate the rough for the best color.

Recutting a stone, typically you are not going to change the orientation or the waste would be way to great.