Possibly ripped off and freaking out :(

[JustEngaged1983]

Hi everyone-

I''ve been a voyeur on this board for a while, but this is my first actual post....but I''m afraid this may be a case of too little too late. I just recently got engaged and thought I had the diamond of my dreams, but now I''m scared that we may have been taken advantage of because of our age and lack of experience with diamonds. For our first big diamond purchase, our budget was a little bigger than most people our age so we decided to splurge on a bigger diamond as opposed to being a bit more low key and upgrading to something bigger later. My future husband payed $17,100 for a GIA certified H color SI1 2.02 carat diamond and put it on a platinum band which I ADORE and picked out myself. I thought I really studied the diamond myself in person (I came in and saw it three separate times before he came back and payed for it). It is TOTALLY eye clean to me, even when scrutinized from 2-6 inches away.

Alas, two things have occurred since our engagement. 1) I discovered the Hollaway cut advisor and put the proportions of my diamond in expecting a fabulous result. On the contrary, my diamond came up as an overall grade of FAIR with poor on both scinstillation and fire despite being graded by the GIA as a Very Good cut 2) Upon seeing the REAL GIA papers to my diamond, as opposed to the photo copy I was shown before purchasing, I was very upset to discover that my diamond had two other imperfections which were not on the initial photo copy (I''m assuming due to a poor copy of my certificate). I cannot see these with the naked eye, and I never found them with a 10x magnification scope, but it''s the fact that I never knew they were there before purchasing.

I made the mistake of not finding this board/the cut advisor sooner and now I''m starting to look at my diamond with a very skewed view. Can someone tell me if we MAJORLY over payed and bought a totally crappy rock? Can anyone explain why my diamond scored so low on the cut advisor? It looks sparkly to me, but obviously I''m very new at this. Also, has anyone else had the problem I experienced with only seeing a photo copy of your GIA papers before purchase? All of this trouble is starting to ruin my newly engaged high

Here are all the specs...I am also attaching a picture from my iPhone of the diamond, since that''s really all I have for now:

Cutting style: Round Brilliant
Price: $17,100
Carat weight: 2.02
Color Grade: H
Clarity Grade: SI1
Cut Grade: Very Good
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: None
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick
Table: 60%
Depth: 61.5%
Crown Angle: 34 degrees
Pavillion Angle: 41.8 degrees
Crown: 13.5%
Pavillion: 44.5%

Any and all help will be SO appreciated, maybe I just sound whiney but I wanted this to be perfect and now I''m worried we got totally ripped off

Thanks!
Lindsey

 

[kenny]

Well, it comes down to how sharp a pencil really needs to be.

If you can return it, there are sharper pencils out there.

If you can''t, just enjoy it because there are much much more dull pencils too.

 

[denverappraiser]

Lindsey,

I know of NO jewelers who price things based on the HCA results. To the extent that you got what they promised and you love the way it looks, NO YOU WERE NOT RIPPED OFF. Could you have bought something that you might have liked better? Possibly, but that’s always the way of shopping, no matter what you buy. Quit stressing and enjoy your lovely new ring.

It scored low on the HCA because of the crown/pavilion angle combination. This does NOT trump the fact that you’ve seen it and you love it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[kenny]

Pricescope has a cool tool.
At the top of this screen click on PRICES.
Then select "Search by Cut".

I did this for your color, carat and clairity but selected only Excellent cut, which returns HCA scored under 2.

It found 4 diamonds.
If your diamond can be returned for a full refund you could consider these, or just compare their prices to what you paid for yours.

Edit: Ignore that 2.27 carat one. Opps. I'd edit the pic but PS doesn't allow that.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Is there a return policy at your jewler?

The good news is that I don't think your overpaid. A superideal H&A of those specs from a PS vendor would cost about $21000. Online vendors sell diamonds with your specs ranging from $12500 to about $20000 and many are in the $17k range, cut quality unkown. B&M jewlers typically cost more than online, so factoring that in and the cut quality you seem to have paid a fair price for a decently cut stone.

I'm sorry that you are dsappointed with your diamond now. It is a Very Good cut grade so, typically, those diamonds will not be top performers. The angles are simply not perfectly complimentary according to preferred specs. What are the face up measurements of the diamond?

ETA If you can return it, me, I would go for one of the ones Kenny pointed out.

 

[JustEngaged1983]

I''m not sure of the return policy on the diamond, my fiancee bought it without me there (I came in and helped with picking it out, but he dealt with all of the cash stuff himself). I''m just throwing this out there for now to get some feedback from all of you EXTREMELY educated diamond folk...so thank you for all the information you''ve already provided.

I understand that a Very Good cut will never hold up to an Excellent cut, I just didn''t realize my proportions would face up quite THAT badly on the HCA. It was a very jarring experience for a newbie such as myself. Are Very Good cut diamonds a generally bad idea?

No one commented so far on the blaring difference between the information on my photo copied GIA certs versus my actual GIA certs. I don''t think my fiancee even noticed the differences during the business of paying and getting receipts for everything. I just noticed when filing the papers this week. Has this happened to anyone else? I feel like a complete chump.

 

[kenny]

I think you might be beating yourself up too much.
Before the HCA people were very happy with their diamonds, and you were too.

I'd take a deep breath.
See about a refund, perhaps use the non-disclosure of those two inclusions as your argument.
I'd not mention cut or the word Internet to the seller; that will not make them fall in love with you.
Right now you want something from them.

You don't necessarily need a refund, just an exchange that meets your standards now that you are better-informed.
They may be much more agreeable to an exchange then a refund.

I'd pursue a refund first.
Then if that fails bring up the exchange.

If it turns out you cannot return or exchange it, just enjoy it.
You paid a fair price.
I'm sure it is beautiful, and you may use your education for an upgrade some day.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 4/6/2010 1:52:37 PM
Author: JustEngaged1983

No one commented so far on the blaring difference between the information on my photo copied GIA certs versus my actual GIA certs. I don''t think my fiancee even noticed the differences during the business of paying and getting receipts for everything. I just noticed when filing the papers this week. Has this happened to anyone else? I feel like a complete chump.

This does not matter to me that much. The price is set by the grade -- SI1 -- and not by the specific inclusions. Since you saw the diamond in person and it was eye clean, who cares what the cert says? Unless we are talking about feathers than break the surface of the girdle or lots of clouds that affect brilliance, it is a non issue to me. It is an SI1, the specific inclusions are neither here nor there.

.

I understand that a Very Good cut will never hold up to an Excellent cut, I just didn''t realize my proportions would face up quite THAT badly on the HCA. It was a very jarring experience for a newbie such as myself. Are Very Good cut diamonds a generally bad idea?

The HCA is a rejection tool. Anything scoring over 2 would technically be rejected and anything scoring less than 2 warrants further consideration. The actual score and the rating that goes with it does not matter all that much. So it does not matter that your diamond scores 2.5 or 3 or 4 etc. What matters is that it is over 2. Generally speaking, a Very Good cut will not score less than two, unless its grade was based on polish or symmetry not its proportions. Are Very Good cuts a bad idea? If you are a cut nut, yes. If you are a typical diamodn buyer, then no. Your diamond is much better than the majority out there.

 

[Upgradable]

Remember, you''re not wearing a calculator on your finger, you''re wearing a great big, gorgeous diamond that you and your FI picked out with love and excitement.

Congratulations on your engagement and your beautiful ring!!

 

[Mobinvera]

Ultimately, the purpose of a diamond is to look good. It doesn’t serve a functional purpose like a car or medicine where it has to be exactly perfect to do its job. You paid a certain amount of money to get a diamond that looks good to you. Whatever the tool says doesn’t change how it looks and what it represents.

 

[kenny]

I've already said if you can't return or exchange it then just love it, but I don't share the sentiment behind the last two posts.

Better cut looks better, and the HCA just helps identify better cut.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Justengaged
I have been opposed to the use of tools like the HCA for years- and your situation is a perfect example of why.
It's supposed to be used as a rejection tool for those who can not look at diamonds before they buy.
What's unwritten in that usage explanation is that the stones it downgrades may be a lot prettier to your eye that the ones it recommends!

As far as the GIA plot- it's generally agreed that the markings ion the plot are pretty poor representation of the actual imperfections in the stone. My advice would be to file the GIA report in a safe place- and file the concerns based on the plot in the "forget about it" file.

The price you paid is extremely fair.

If you want to get something else, by all means, do so.
But my sincere opinion is that all too often, readers are led to believe that the quality of cut preferred here is universally accepted. In other words, a stone getting 4 on HCA is sure to look markedly "worse" than one scoring 1. That is simply not the case. What some people here prefer- or call "better cut" is not loved by all observers best.

If you love the ring, please put all this behind you and concentrate on planning the wedding- or how much your guy must love you to buy such an incredible ring

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Let us put this in another perspective.

You were not ripped off. Period.

The thing is, you could have gotten a stone with a better cut-quality. Most probably, for the same price, it would need to be lighter (I carefully avoided the word ''smaller'') or with a lower graded (again a very important word) colour and/or clarity.

It is up to you to decide upon your priorities.

Live long,

 

[oldminer]

You do NOT have a problem diamond and for what you selected, you did NOT pay an unfair price at all. You can always re-think a purchase after the fact and few material possessions are as good after a few months or years as they were when they were brand new and more exciting to own. You paid less than the diamonds being offer here although the cut quality of the one you picked does not exactly fit the "ideal" parameters so sought after here, but the eye of the beholder has huge importance and the fact that you worked together to pick this stone puts a lot of sentimentality in the purchase. It isn''t a competition, but a present from one person to another that is hugely symbolic.

I think you should make sure you get an ultrasonic or steamer to keep it really clean and sparkling so that everyone who sees it will tell you how great it looks. People married 30 years hardly ever get such a diamond, even on the upgrade, so it is premature to be disenchanted so soon. Give it ten years or so and re-evaluate then when it is time for the 5 carat upgrade.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 4/6/2010 3:05:13 PM
Author: kenny
I''ve already said if you can''t return or exchange it then just love it, but I don''t share the sentiment behind the last two posts.

Better cut looks better, and the HCA just helps identify better cut.

I agree with this. Ignore the HCA -- Did you compare your diamond to GIA Ex cuts or AGS Ideals when you bought it? Is so and you liked this one better -- for whatever reason be it personal preference or the better size for budget etc -- then enjoy it and love it. If you did not make such a comparison, then perhaps it is worth doing now that you know that better cuts exist *if* there is the option available to exchange or return the diamond. And if you even care at all

 

[Karl_K]

I am going to break ranks with the rest of the trade and say that yea it wasn't that great a deal.
Total ripoff not really.
Somewhat yea

 

[missydebby]

Hi, I''m a newbie too. What I''ve learned in my diamond search s that it''s always a matter of weighing the differences...

I can totally understand the feeling in the pit of your stomach. This is probably one of the biggest luxury things you have ever gotten in your life. And it''s important that you feel happy. I think if you have lingering doubts, there is definitely something you can do. Try to get the refund. If you can''t I''m sure the jewelers will let you trade it in for a different stone of the same price or slightly higher. I doubt they want to alienate a potentially great customer and it''s not like you bought it off Ebay from some unknown entity. Then explain that you have refined what you want in your special diamond. Tell them and have them show you the options. Now remember, it''s possible their prices will be different then what is online in that they have a store that you can go into and actually see the diamond. Retail is always different than strictly online. But with that extra cost you will be able to get their expertise and see the diamond yourself.

It is a big thing, and before you settle down and get all zen over it, I''d try to work out a satisfactory arrangement both you and the seller feel good about. Then it''s winner winner chicken dinner.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Karl- what would you say is a fair price for a 2.01 H/SI1 VG cut grade...keeping in mind it was purchased in a walk in store.


I have no doubt that if a person considers one stone to be better cut than another ( remember this is based on whatever they want), they will see a difference.
The other side of this is that "better cut" is not an accepted , standardized thing.
I have seen many VG cut graded stones who's cut I preferred to other EX cut grade stones.
If a given group of people swear one stone is better cut than another, that does not mean everyone else will feel the same

 

[stone-cold11]

I agree with Karl. You will be able to see some leakage under the table. If the stone was cut without leakage, it will go under 2c, and a much larger drop in $/carat, or another way of saying it is a better cut stone of 2.02c will have a larger diameter than this.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Stone- I''ve asked this before- but it bears repeating....can you show us what leakage looks like in photographs?
To help th OP in knowing what to look for.

I agree with Karl. You will be able to see some leakage under the table. If the stone was cut without leakage, it will go under 2c, and a much larger drop in $/carat, or another way of saying it is a better cut stone of 2.02c will have a larger diameter than this.

I''m also curious how you would be able to make such a definitive statement without seeing it?
Also I''d be interested in you telling us the exact diameter of this diamond , since you have also stated unequivocally that your idea of a better cut stone will have a larger one.

We should remember this is NOT an academic discussion for the OP.
Before a person goes knocking a purchase someone has already made, isn''t it important to have some solid basis in fact?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Lindsey,
I could put this in a different light for you.
You got a good deal.
Your ring looks really nice.
The technical reasons your new gorgeous diamond can be "demoted" either will not be visible to the naked eye- or there are other aspects that are based on someone''s taste- like if a stone has Hearts and Arrows. Some people don''t like those patterns.

I''m sorry to argue with anyone, but there are advantages a brick and mortar store possess. These advantages cost money but many consider it well spent.
You got to walk into a store, and look someone in the eye.
If you had demanded a lot of the things many people would suggest you do, if you went and got a refund, it will cost you thousands more to buy it under the same type of circumstances
This diamond may be a very good deal for you guys.

You got to examine the diamond closely- and I''ll bet you''ve got a good eye.
The things - like leakage- being talked about referring to your stone are , I''m sorry, uncalled for and unsubstantiated.
If your diamond had a detrimental thing- leakage, or whatever you want to call it- you''d have spotted it.
It''s not the greatest photo in the world, but the diamond seems to have good spread to me.


I have no reason to write this- I don''t want to argue with anyone- more than anything, I want you to enjoy your amazing new diamond, with no reservation. You deserve that.

 

[jlx]

i don''t think you were ripped off at all, but you do get what you pay for.

it does seem like you aren''t too thrilled about the cut, now that you are more aware of it. i actually almost did the same exact thing, but had only paid a deposit, which i got back.

i''m sure it''s too late to receive a refund, but a lot of jewelers do offer many upgrade possibilities.

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 4/6/2010 5:40:42 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Stone- I''ve asked this before- but it bears repeating....can you show us what leakage looks like in photographs?

To help th OP in knowing what to look for.

I agree with Karl. You will be able to see some leakage under the table. If the stone was cut without leakage, it will go under 2c, and a much larger drop in $/carat, or another way of saying it is a better cut stone of 2.02c will have a larger diameter than this.

I''m also curious how you would be able to make such a definitive statement without seeing it?

Also I''d be interested in you telling us the exact diameter of this diamond , since you have also stated unequivocally that your idea of a better cut stone will have a larger one.



We should remember this is NOT an academic discussion for the OP.

Before a person goes knocking a purchase someone has already made, isn''t it important to have some solid basis in fact?

Volume from simple geometry calculation.

 

[cara]

Date: 4/6/2010 5:40:42 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Stone- I've asked this before- but it bears repeating....can you show us what leakage looks like in photographs?

To help th OP in knowing what to look for.

I agree with Karl. You will be able to see some leakage under the table. If the stone was cut without leakage, it will go under 2c, and a much larger drop in $/carat, or another way of saying it is a better cut stone of 2.02c will have a larger diameter than this.

I'm also curious how you would be able to make such a definitive statement without seeing it?

Also I'd be interested in you telling us the exact diameter of this diamond , since you have also stated unequivocally that your idea of a better cut stone will have a larger one.

We should remember this is NOT an academic discussion for the OP.

Before a person goes knocking a purchase someone has already made, isn't it important to have some solid basis in fact?

It may not have started out as an academic discussion, but you are trying to turn it into one

again by asking someone to prove leakage exists on a consumer's thread.

You have stated your opinion. Stone is fine. Leakage doesn't exist. GIA VG cut is great and HCA is not so useful.

Other people have different opinions and have offered them.

*Every* time some poor consumer starts a thread asking about a stone, does it have to descent to this 'prove leakage exists' academic pissing contest again?

Clearly there are many people on ps that have stricter cut standards than you, while you don't think those strict standards are particularly useful and may even be worthless at times. Is there a way that you can make this point without attacking the viewpoint of other well-respected psers, and dragging every thread posted by a consumer asking for advice into another debate on whether leakage exists and whether strict cut standards mean anything/do anything? There has to be a way.

Meanwhile, I am all for looking on the bright side when a consumer has already made a purchase, but I am not for whitewashing anything either. This consumer did not post in SMTR saying 'Lookie! I'm engaged and have this sparkly ring - what do you think?' Then only positive comments are really appropriate, and if you can't find one to make then you don't post. Very simple. Rather, this consumer posted in RockyTalky and wants to know if she and her FI got ripped off, she has a question on the clarity markings on her cert, and as well as she is shocked - shocked - to find out that her stone might not have a fabulous cut according to some people's opinion or standards.

I think this poster has the right to honest answers from everyone, not just whitewashed comments, particularly as she might be within a return or exchange period.

 

[cara]

JustEngaged, I feel for you. This is a huge emotional purchase and one made usually by people that, despite their best efforts, are not particularly educated on what they are buying. You are getting some tardy education and maybe a tinge of buyer's remorse.

First off, the good news is that clarity plots can be unnecessarily scary and it doesn't sound like you got royally ripped off price-wise, even if it may be possible to find a better deal.

On the cut thing, only you can decide if you want to do something about it and you may want to: 1) read up about cut under the tutorials under knowledge some more and explore pricescope and particularly the pricing and availability of superideals 2) consult with an appraiser to get their opinion on your stone 3) look at your receipt and other documents to see what your return/exchange options are if you decide to go that route.

There is also an emotional component to this - will it be too traumatic and negative to your engagement process if you start trying to return the stone in search of something more perfect? Will your FI be hurt? Or will it eat at you over time and ultimately cost you more money and hassle to upgrade the stone later to something more ideal cut than it would to try and do it now (esp. if you are in a return/exchange window)? This second point is tough to predict - many people research diamonds briefly around their engagement and then happily wear them forever and forget the technical details. For some others, this is the start of or continuation of an obsession, and those are the ones more likely to stick around PS longer.

For what its worth, I too have an engagement stone that did not score so stellar on the HCA. I had found PS before we got engaged, so I knew about the HCA and cut standards and whatnot, but I was too wimpy to properly communicate with my husband on the diamond issue and he bought at a local store. I was initially (how to put this - looking for the right word) concerned? that I did not have the most super-ideal stone ever, but decided just to wear it and let it grow on me and it has. It is still not the most super-ideal stone ever, and I definitely aspire to some super-ideal earrings or an upgrade stone when it financially makes sense for us, which might be decades away, but my ring is very lovely and the stone is lovely I am glad I decided to wear my ring right away and not fuss with it or worry about it too much.

ETA: Also, if you compared your stone to other well-cut stones during purchasing and preferred yours, then all this angst may be for naught. But you might have been choosing from not the greatest selection. I hesitate to advise you to go diamond shopping again unless you have really decided to pursue the return, but maybe an appraiser would be the right person to give an unbiased opinion. Good luck, whatever you decide!

 

[PumpkinPie]

I don`t think you got horribly ripped off- but like many others, would suggest that if this bothers you and you are able to exchange or return the stone - go for it

 

[Rockdiamond]

Maybe I''m not reading this correctly, but it seems that Lindsey''s main consideration about this diamond only begin after plugging it''s numbers into a program that lead her to believe there might be a problem. There is nothing in her post that suggests she does not like the way the diamond looks.
I would be very interested in the measurements off the GIA report.
We can see the EX stones in this weight range that Kenny posted spread between 8.1-8.3mm.

I agree, if there is a problem, attend to it.
But if there''s no problem, trading this diamond is a huge waste of time, and money.

For what it''s worth, every trades person ( aside from Karl) has agreed that there is no "rip off" here.
I asked for photos so that Lindsey might know what leakage looks like, if it is indeed, a problem with this diamond.

Or it''s a really lovely stone, priced not as an "EX" cut grade- and maybe that''s what makes it a good deal.
Especially if she prefers the way the diamond looks.

 

[HVVS]

JustEngaged, Brian Gavin of Brian Gavin Diamonds recuts diamonds. You can contact him through his website. There are at least two or three threads here about diamonds that Pricescope people had recut. Sometimes the stone loses minimal carat weight and diameter. As a worst case, say you can't exchange that diamond, or trade it in on an upgrade, and can't stand it the way it is. Then, possibly it could be recut. He can recut it to hearts & arrows, or just tweak it a bit here and there to improve the performance. It would lose some weight, but you have already spent the money to buy it, you'd certainly lose a great deal trying to sell it yourself, and a recut would cost less than $1000, most likely, and maybe more like $700 to $800.

Most people can't tell the difference between a 2ct or a 1.7ct, and whether the diameter is 7.8mm or 8.1mm. Certainly not if the diamond is on your moving hand. Those stones all look "two carats" to most people. If it sparkles more after a recut, it actually might "look" larger than it does now. And there are different styles of ring that put some metal around the diamond and bulk it up visually. Halo settings, fishtail head or other big triple or ornate prongs that square off the corners, a basket with a metal ring that extends slightly beyond the diameter of the diameter, a bezel, etc. A talented bench jeweler may be able to remodel your existing ring or recreate it, if the recut stone requires a different size of setting.

So, all is not lost.

One thing that I would definitely do before I panicked about the cut is go to a jeweler that sells Hearts on Fire or unbranded hearts and arrows or other "ideal" GIA and AGS excellent cuts, put yours beside some of those, and see whether there's any real difference, or which look you prefer. Or whether these "improvements" that are called ideal are even worth the extra cost. I have a H I-1 diamond that is not even graded by any lab. I bought it from a pawn shop, actually. It has some almost-arrows, and I'm not sure about hearts, and the arrows are not extremely precise and kind of broad. They are rather like big black spokes at times. I also have a Good Old Gold superideal H&A. It pegs the charts on all of those testers that GOG has. When I put those two diamonds side by side, that non-ideal H I-1 throws big "blade" flashes, like sword blades, of brilliance and fire, and the H&A looks more refined with it's more slivery flashes. But both are very attractive diamonds. If the H&A diamond is a 100% on performance, the uncerted diamond is still at least 96% and is actually more attention-getting than the H&A in certain lighting. Plus it tosses lots of brilliance back in office lighting, and people think it's an E or F color because it faces up so blindingly white.

So, in that respect, David "RockDiamond" is correct. Ideal or beautiful depends on the observer, as well as the cut. Some people prefer Old Mine Cuts, or Old European cuts. And some of those are far from "ideal." So, if you are happy with the look that your diamond has, that is what matters.

BTW, I sent a diamond to BGD to be evaluated for a recut, because it was mostly dull in the center and that bothered me after a while. Brian will look at it and tell me how much weight & diameter it might lose.

 

[kenny]

RD, please write to PS admin and explain to them why they should remove the HCA link and forbid discussion of it.

If they do, we can finally enjoy some peace around here.
If they don't, then please accept that it is here to stay and let it go already.

I have written them with removal arguments before, but they did not concur.
Though it may strike us as inexplicable, some entities are allowed to remain here on PS.

PS is not my forum, or yours.
It belongs to admin, and we must respect their decisions.

If you can convince them to remove the HCA, then so be it.
If they don't perhaps they can provide you with an explanation that will satisfy you so we can have some peace.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 4/6/2010 7:55:29 PM
Author: cara
ETA: Also, if you compared your stone to other well-cut stones during purchasing and preferred yours, then all this angst may be for naught. But you might have been choosing from not the greatest selection. I hesitate to advise you to go diamond shopping again unless you have really decided to pursue the return, but maybe an appraiser would be the right person to give an unbiased opinion. Good luck, whatever you decide!

Ah, you spoiled my fun with an edit, I was going to correct my uber educated friend on her typo