Possible Bad GIA Report?

[GIA_Cert]

I recently purchased a stone with a GIA report that has a "very good" cut grade. However, after discussing the specs with a diamond wholesaler who is a friend of a friend, he felt the the stone should not have been given a "very good" cut grade based on the proportions of the table and crown height. Can anyone help validate this?

I found it to be very disturbing since I bought the stone from another wholesaler who is a friend of a friend.

The person that questioned the stone''s value also went on to tell me he could give me a better cut diamond for a better price so I am trying to determine if his concern was genuine or whether or not he was trying to sell me his stone. He was somewhat baffled by the report since GIA is one of the best ones out there. Is it possible that GIA got the report wrong?

I have attached a scan of the certificate. I also verified the certificate in the GIA database to make sure it is not a fake.

Thanks.

 

[neatfreak]

There are many combos that can make the different cut grades. If you are really worried about it send it to an INDEPENDENT appraiser to confirm. Otherwise you can always send it back to GIA (or to AGS for that matter) to be regraded.

But remember that grading is all done by people...so yes mistakes can happen.

But the *new* retailer might just want you to feel bad about it so he can sell you something different too...so take it with a grain of salt. I would say that is very likely here.

ETA: It is also important to note that a GIA cut grade of "VG" is in no way the top category of cuts. So the new guy may mean that he wants to get you a better cut stone, which is very possible.

 

[Cleo]

If you are truly concerned about your diamond then the only way to get a True and unbiased opinion on it is to pay for an independent appraisal. That is, an appraisal by someone who does not sell diamonds or jewellery and who cannot possible have a conflict of interest.

In my opinion there is a VERY strong conflict of interest here, and I believe that your FOAF is simply trying to put you off your own diamond in an attempt to sell you his. That isn''t really a very nice thing to say, but unfortunately I believe that is the case here.

On Pricescope we hear many such stories about friends of friends who are jewellers.. and few of them are happy tales - particularly when the person has actually gone ahead and bought a diamond from a FOAF.

As you said yourself, GIA is one of the top two diamond grading labs in the world (AGSL and GIA being the most respected).

If GIA graded your stone as ''Very Good'' then I would absolutely trust in their grading.

Again, if you would like reassurance on it, then by all means get an independent appraisal done.

x x x

 

[strmrdr]

order an ideal-scope and have it shipped overnight then you can see for yourself what the cut quality is:
www.ideal-scope.com

 

[strmrdr]

but I can tell you now that VG is a gift too the cutter and no favor too you... Id grade it as being fish tank gravel.

The 65% table is big enough too use as an aircraft carrier and the pavilion is way deeeeeeep.

 

[strmrdr]

The HCA agrees

Selected: 58.4% depth, 65% table, 32.5° crown angle, 41.8° pavilion angle
The result is for a symmetrical diamond with a medium girdle and very good polish
HCA scores were adjusted Dec. 15, 2001 and Feb. 6, 2003.


Factor Grade
Light Return Fair
Fire Poor
Scintillation Poor
Spread
or diameter for weight Excellent
Total Visual Performance 7.1 - Fair


Thats one of the worst HCA scores I have ever seen.

 

[Regular Guy]

We don''t often see that high an HCA score.

Diamonds can look pretty...almost despite themselves.

In comparing poorer ones to better ones...you both a) see the difference, and b) validate the science like HCA which helps anticipate the relative look.

Also, yes...generally, it''s recommended here to not get an opinion from someone who can also sell you an alternative.

 

[Cleo]

Date: 4/18/2008 12:31:11 PM
Author: strmrdr
but I can tell you now that VG is a gift too the cutter and no favor too you... Id grade it as being fish tank gravel.

The 65% table is big enough too use as an aircraft carrier and the pavilion is way deeeeeeep.

Good heavens! I didn''t even look at the cert! I wish I had!!

As Storm says - a 65% table is absolutely huge. Gigantic even.

And the pavilon is very deep...

More info here on the effects of these:

http://diamonds.pricescope.com/tablesize.asp
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Cut/Proportions/

Are you still able to return the diamond at this stage?

x x x

 

[Klunker]

I just checked this diamond''s proportions with the Facetware cut estimator from GIA here: http://facetware.gia.edu/ and it actually managed to come out as a Very Good cut. I am surprised myself. 65% table...?!

So... your GIA cert is legit... but you could get a better stone.

 

[Klunker]

Date: 4/18/2008 12:31:11 PM
Author: strmrdr
[...] Id grade it as being fish tank gravel.

The 65% table is big enough too use as an aircraft carrier and the pavilion is way deeeeeeep.

I can''t help it, but the HCA picture for 65% tables makes me think the X markes the carrier''s position. Deep blue sea...

Or is this where the fish tank gravel came from...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/18/2008 12:27:44 PM
Author: strmrdr
order an ideal-scope and have it shipped overnight then you can see for yourself what the cut quality is:
www.ideal-scope.com

if it has great symmetry then this is what you will see thru the ideal-scope.

It is about 5% bigger spread for its weight - that is good. It is fairly bright - about 5% less than a really top stone, but has blah contrast and not much fire.

 

[GIA_Cert]

I think I could probably return it but then I''ll be paying to reset it, etc. and want to know if it''s really worth it. Thank you for the replys. One final question, what do you think the price range is for the stone from a wholesaler? Thanks.

 

[GIA_Cert]

So do you think that result is OK for a diamond that has a "Very Good" cut grade from GIA? Or should I try to return the stone and get another one?

 

[Cleo]

Date: 4/21/2008 12:16:48 PM
Author: GIA_Cert
So do you think that result is OK for a diamond that has a ''Very Good'' cut grade from GIA? Or should I try to return the stone and get another one?

Quite honestly I believe we are all very surprised that this diamond was graded ''Very Good''.

I would most definitely urge you to return it for a full refund and to get another one.

I''m so sorry that you have been disappointed with this particular diamond. It can''t be nice to find out that something you bought isn''t all you hoped it would be, and I really feel for you.

If you would like any help at all with finding an incredible replacement stone with an awesome cut, then we would all be delighted to help you.

x x x

 

[GIA_Cert]

OK, appreciate your help.

Any thoughts on how to best approach the wholesaler I bought it from? Assume I should I go to an appraiser first so I''ve got a third party opinion to back it up.

 

[Cleo]

Date: 4/21/2008 12:43:27 PM
Author: GIA_Cert
OK, appreciate your help.

Any thoughts on how to best approach the wholesaler I bought it from? Assume I should I go to an appraiser first so I''ve got a third party opinion to back it up.

You are very welcome.

How long ago did you buy the diamond? Do they have a written returns policy?

If they have a returns policy and you are still within the returns period then you can simply return the ring and request a refund, explaining that you have ''changed your mind''. I wouldn''t go into any more depth than that - just that you have changed your mind and would like a refund.

If you are outside the returns period, or if none exists - or if they require you to take a store credit then let us know.

It would be better if you don''t have to pay for an appraisal, as this will leave you out of pocket.

x x x

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 4/21/2008 12:43:27 PM
Author: GIA_Cert
OK, appreciate your help.


Any thoughts on how to best approach the wholesaler I bought it from? Assume I should I go to an appraiser first so I''ve got a third party opinion to back it up.

Righto. Do you have a return policy? That will be the biggest determinant in whether you can get a refund or not...

 

[GIA_Cert]

We never discussed a return policy but I think they would be willing to do it since it is a friend of a friend. I didn''t buy it from a retailer, I got it from a wholesaler in NYC. I just got it last week. I will let you know if I encounter any issues with returning it.

Final question... what cut grade do you think it should have? "Good" or worse?

 

[Cleo]

It would be impossible to state what grade it ''should'' have, unfortunately. Just because a stone gets a particular grade from a lab, doesn''t necessarily make it a good (or in this case ''Very Good'') diamond.

GIA have graded it as they saw fit.... I would be interested to see how AGSL would grade the same diamond.

The requirements for GIA cut grades aren''t quite as tight as AGSL''s.. and even within GIA''s ''Excellent'' cut grade there are still some diamonds that PSers would reject.

Even so, looking at GIA Excellent and AGS0 Ideal cut diamonds is always a great starting point when you are shopping for a new stone.

x x x

 

[denverappraiser]

GIA - Very Good is an extremely broad category. GIA cut grading uses five grades based on what was most popular in a study they did a few years ago where they showed a few hundred different stones that they knew quite a bit about to a few hundred observers in a variety of lighting conditions and had them force rank them. They identified some attributes and combinations of attributes that were popular among the viewers and divided the stones in to 5 general groups based on this ranking. Group 1 was consistently near the top with most people, stones in group 5 were consistently near the bottom. If a stone is most similar to those in the first group of the study they call it ‘Excellent’, if it’s most similar to the bottom group they call it ‘Poor’ and in between they’ve got Very Good, Good and Fair.

They don’t publicize how many of the stones they grade are assigned each cut grade at the lab but based purely on personal observations of a decent number of stones that they’ve graded, observation of what’s for sale in the big databases like Blue Nile’s and discussions with jewelers and dealers who submit stones to them would suggest that about 35% are excellent, 40% are very good, 15% are good, 10% are fair and effectively none are poor.

This puts your stone solidly in the top 75% based on this scale, which strikes me as entirely plausible.

Statistical observation:
Blue Nile today has 22,333 round diamonds listed.
1272 of those are ‘select ideal’, most of which have GIA grading and all with GIA grading are ‘excellent’ cuts.
10,072 are ideal. A large majority of these also have GIA grading and all with GIA grading have ‘excellent’ cuts. Most of the others have AGSL pedigree and, if submitted to GIA would also be graded excellent.
8441 are very good. All but a couple of these are GIA graded.
2281 are good. All but a couple of these are GIA graded.
267 are fair. All of these are GIA graded.
0 are poor.
This makes roughly 88% of the round stones they have for sale are Very Good or better.

Note to the admin: I hope it’s ok to use BN’s data for this. I would use the database here but I can’t figure out how to do this type of sort.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 4/21/2008 1:15:03 PM
Author: GIA_Cert
We never discussed a return policy but I think they would be willing to do it since it is a friend of a friend. I didn''t buy it from a retailer, I got it from a wholesaler in NYC. I just got it last week. I will let you know if I encounter any issues with returning it.


Final question... what cut grade do you think it should have? ''Good'' or worse?

Just an FYI, someone who is a wholesaler only sells wholesale. period. Otherwise they are a retailer the term "wholesaler" is just used to make you believe that you are getting a good deal...don''t believe that they are giving you a great deal just because they are a friend of a friend.

I cannot tell you how many people posting here have gotten totally ripped off by friends of friends who claim to be "wholesalers".

 

[niceice]

Date: 4/18/2008 12:31:11 PM
Author: strmrdr
I''d grade it as being fish tank gravel.

That''s going to make for an expensive tank, 65% table and all!

Well at least we know a "wholesaler" for it

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/21/2008 3:37:25 PM
Author: niceice

Date: 4/18/2008 12:31:11 PM
Author: strmrdr
I''d grade it as being fish tank gravel.

That''s going to make for an expensive tank, 65% table and all!

Well at least we know a ''wholesaler'' for it

lol
well a local store has a bunch of that stones twin sisters cut wise graded by IGI with slightly worse clarity and varying weight and that is exackly what I told him when he showed it too me.
He got a real good laugh out of it and said not too let his boss hear that!

Where it comes from is a guy I know who is a gemstone cutter puts all his mistakes in his fishtank.

 

[GIA_Cert]

OK... I spoke with the dealer today and am taking the stone back to look for another. Once I find another, I am going to re-post the report I get and am hoping you folks can provide either more guidance or affirmation that I am getting a good stone. Thanks again for your help with this. I''ve been losing sleep over it.

 

[niceice]

You might consider posting the report before purchasing the diamond and you should use the Holloway Cut Advisor to weed out the options before doing so. You can access the Cut Advisor via the Tools / Cut Advisor link located at the top of this page, in fact, you can do it right from the office of wherever you are shopping for a diamond if you''ve got the kehones

Assuming that you are looking for a diamond with superior visual performance and a decent balance of carat weight and spread (outside diameter), I recommend looking for something within this range:

Total depth between 59 - 61.8%
Table diameter between 53 - 57%
Crown angle between 34.0 - 34.8 degrees
Pavilion angle between 40.6 - 40.9 degrees
Girdle: thin to slightly thick, faceted or polished
Culet: GIA none or AGS pointed (same thing)
Polish: GIA Excellent or AGS Ideal
Symmetry: GIA Excellent or AGS Ideal
Overall Cut Rating: GIA Excellent or AGS Ideal

But hey, I''m kind of a purist. A dear friend of mine in the business recently called me a "diamond snob" which I took as a compliment

although I don''t think he meant it that way since it came in response to my explanation about why I was rejecting one of his diamonds...

There ARE other combinations of crown and pavilion angle which will yield similar visual performance than what I''ve stated above, but this is the center range that I recommend because it tends to make it easy to find a diamond that performs well in terms of brilliance, dispersion and scintillation - the factors which I believe are the primary reasons for buying a diamond. Play with the HCA a little before you go to look at diamonds and get a feel for what combinations of total depth, table diameter, crown and pavilion angle have what effect on the estimated visual performance of the diamonds... I suggest running a search here on PS for diamonds within the range of carat weight, color and clarity that you are looking for to get an idea of price, you can use the diamonds you find there as examples to base your HCA experimentation on.

Diamond Buying 101: Learn Before You Buy and Eliminate Buyers Remorse. Happy Hunting!